First time to range. Please help critique.

[MidKnight]

I recently purchased a used S&W 908. It's my first centerfire handgun. I took my first trip to the range today and shot some targets. I did better than I expected to seeing as how this is such a departure from the long guns I've been hunting with for so many years.

Anyways, because I don't know anyone around here that shoots, I was hoping some people could look at my target and give me an idea of what I'm doing wrong... see, I'm consistantly to the right of the bull. If anyone knows what that's symptomatic of, please let me know!!! Thanks in advance!

The picture is about 15 shots at 33 feet with 115 gr FMJ winchester cheapo rounds.

[Dust_Devil]

Looks like a trigger control problem.

Assuming you are a right-handed shooter, possibly you are jerking the trigger with the tip of your finger causing the gun to jerk to the right and causing the impacts to the right of the bull rather than having your trigger finger more centered on the trigger and squeezing evenly and slowly back.

I actually have the opposite problem where my groups are often to the left which I think I am squeezing my left hand too much over the grip.

Overall, you want to have a even pressure with both hands, when shooting with two hands, and you want to have an even pressure with your trigger finger and slowly squeeze the trigger back while practicing proper breathing techniques.

[powderedonuts]

I would agree it looks like you are pulling slightly to the right when you trigger.

[USP45usp]

Yes, he's right handed and he's pulling the shots to the right, with an over compensation to the left on that one shot. Which means that he knows that he's pulling to the right.

How do you position your trigger finger? First joint, tip, in the middle of the first and second joint?

It looks as if you are jerking the trigger, anticipation of the shot. Since this is your first handgun, and your first time shooting it, the target hits are actually normal. I bet you got that tingly, anxious feeling didn't you . All normal.

Depending on the actual time frame of the shots (were the ones in the right hand of the target first shots fired, middle shots fired, last shots fired? The one on the left hand side? The three in the 10ring?) you either got better, or worse. If the three in the 10 ring were your first then you were shooting as you should, the shots "surprised you". If the three in the 10 were after all the others, then you were getting use to the gun.

Here is what you do. Don't pay attention to the trigger, the hammer, or even the gun, it's there, it will work. Pay attention to the front site, it should be clear as a bell, the target should be blurred, and your finger should depressed the trigger without you really thinking that you're doing it.

The best times that I've shot (scores), hell, I didn't even know if I was breathing or not or if my body was even there. All I saw was the front site and the X (for some reason, the X seemed magnified even though it was just a blur, like it was 1" away from me).

After I had finished my shots someone further down the line touched off a round from a big bore revolver and I nearly jumped out of my skin, I didn't even hear him (her?) before when I was shooting and they reloaded right after that round (so they had fired at least four or five shoots while I was firing).

Honestly, for the first time firing a centerfire pistol, you did quite well IMHO.

Wayne

[DanV1317]

sometimes i noticed that when i was going to the extreme right/left/up/down, it was not my trigger pull, but instead was my sight picture.

To correct it, i will shoot one in the extreme opposite direction. If i am shooting way right, i then overcompensate a shot to the left side to make it to the extreme left of the target. After i see where it hit (making sure it's way to the opposite side, i then aim again for the bullseye. Sounds wacky, but it works. I was taught that by a guy who attended Front Sight training school out in the west.

[spacemanspiff]

i've done worse at closer distances.

your gun is double-action-only, right? its going to have a heavier trigger pull which means you have to practice a lot more to build up your finger strength. not difficult, just dryfire every day, do it while watching the nightly news or whatever.
but do it with a goal. use the same grip and stance as if you were shooting at the range. as you line those sights up, you want the least amount of movement of the muzzle as you manipulate the trigger. that means no side to side or up/down movement. with practice you'll begin to know instinctively when that muzzle has shifted and exactly why (jerking trigger, squeezing grips too tight, pushing out with the heel of your hand, etc).

also consider what kind of follow through you have after the trigger is pulled. are you keeping the trigger held back until the recoil has settled and the muzzle is back on target? you should be. and when you are releasing the trigger, you will feel a little 'click' as it resets. once you feel that you can squeeze again.
the amount of distance that saves isnt the key, but rather the amount of muscle movement in your hands that you are trying to minimize.

[MidKnight]

Thanks for the replys.

I'm right handed, yes. The shots did in fact move closer as I went. That was my 3rd and final target for the day. I think I shot around 70 rounds. The other ones were about the same but without any in the 10 ring.

I had not thought about how I reacted with regard to the trigger after the shot, thanks, I'll be looking into that.

Also my gun is not a DOA, it's SA/DA so I can't even blame it on that!!

I was using the tip of my finger and now when I do it at home with out shooting anything, I can see the gun move a bit to the right as I pull back. Huh. Thanks. I'll try to switch up the trigger finger and see what position works best.

As far as dry firing at home, I will. However, I have a question: do you need 'snap caps' or is dry firing completely okay for my type of gun???

Thanks in advance for any/all advise you guys can give me!!!

[USP45usp]

MidKnight,

I would recommend buying snapcaps whether the gun (read the manual) is okay to dry fire without. It's a good investment just to ensure that the firing pin doesn't get damaged.

Wayne

[Capt. Charlie]

There are two exercises you can do at home to improve your trigger pull. The first is designed to show you if your trigger pull is "pushing" or "pulling" the gun. Tape a plain piece of paper to the wall at point/aim height. Take a wooden pencil and wrap tape around it in two places to such a thickness that it will fit in the barrel without rattling around. Place it down the barrel, point out. Assume your stance with the point of the pencil barely touching the paper, and "shoot". If you're doing everything right, there should only be a dot on the paper. Too much finger in the trigger (right handed) and there will be a line going off to the right. Too little finger, line to the left, jerking the trigger, line up or down. The other exercise is designed to detect and correct flinch or jerking. Place a penny on top of the barrel, balanced near the muzzle. Take your stance, and "shoot" until you can do it without the penny falling off. These exercises have been around forever and have helped a LOT of shooters! After more than 50 years of shooting handguns, I still use them on occasion.

[CarbineCaleb]

Well, on a note of encouragement - if that is your first day with a handgun at 33 feet, you're doing better already than most folks I see Heck, the average guy I see shoots pretty fast and yet with little skill, and is lucky to keep them on paper. I definitely think your firearms experience has helped get you off to a good start.

In addition to the excellent tips you got here, you may like to look at the free and very useful US Army Pistol Marksmanship Guide at:
http://www.mit.edu/~birge/books/US-A...ning-Guide.pdf

Note that since this is available free, so you should right-click on the link and choose "Save Target As" to save it your PC and browse it from there. That will save some bandwidth for the servers/network (the file is huge), and ensure that they will be able to keep it available free.

Have fun!

[zzirg]

try to correct....place a quarter on the top of your gun near the front of the rear site and shoot it without knocking the quarter off before the gun fires.

[XavierBreath]

I agree with CC. You are doing well for where you are at. If this was easy, it would not be so challenging. (How's that for a Yogiism?) Remember that any monkey can align sights. Marksmanship is about holding the sights aligned while pulling the trigger. It's all about trigger control, not sight control. Here's a chart to help you diagnose in the future.

[BerettaCougar]

Minus the one way off to the right, I think you did pretty good

[MidKnight]

I headed back to the range and looked at a few of the points above. Such as the follow thru (which is really useful to think about, it helps take away from my find focusing on the explosion in my hand). Also trigger finger placement. That didn't effect things as much.

However, I can DEFINATELY say that I'm anticipating the shot and flinching. I can feel it. And a few times I caught myself doing it before the shot and backed off the trigger. Now, this doesn't happen at home. I was dry firing and I could keep the gun rock solid. Coins on the top of the slide didn't budge. However, at the range when I know it's going to shoot... I flinch and I flinch bad.

Here's my question... how the hell do I stop from flinching?

Is it just more time at the range and getting comfortable? Is it learning to rely on muscle memory from dry firing?

Thanks ahead of time, you all have already been very helpful!!!

[XavierBreath]

Here's an old trick to cure the flinch. Buy some Snap Caps in the caliber of your choice. Then have a beautiful woman load your magazines while randomly putting in a couple of Snap Caps among the live rounds. Shoot these magazines while she observes you. She does not have to be a shooter, but it helps if she is.

When you drop the hammer on a Snap Cap, your flinch will be so apparent, and embarrasing that you will weed it out like a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] on a golf course! This technique works best if your assistant is a buxxom long legged blonde in daisy dukes, but a good friend who will snicker and never let you forget the experience will also work for some folks. If you have no friends, try loading up three or four mags yourself and then mixing those up in a hat.

FWIW, this also makes great failure drill practice.

[Capt. Charlie]

XB's technique is an excellent one, but you will never completely eliminate the tendency to flinch, especially if you consistantly shoot larger calibers. It will take as much concentration on the last shot of your life as it did on the first, but the mind and body do learn, and it will get better with time and practice. Intense concentration on trigger, sights, and follow through is the only thing that will overcome it. Of course, XB's blonde couldn't hurt, either .

[n3twrkm4n]

I had the same issue when I first shot my XD in .40 calibre... I could tell I was flinching cause frankly it was a loud @$$ gun! Polymer frame so its got some jolt to it as well. I fired 50 rounds through it, not nearly enough to get used to it but half way through I just slowed down concentrated and pretended it was life or death for hitting that bullseye and I ended up getting 3 in a row...

I definately need more practice with it, that is why I'm going tomorrow! God I love indoor ranges!

Good luck with figuring things out, I'm used to shooting rifles which don't need too much muzzle control, but pistols are a whole new beast for me!

[CarbineCaleb]

On XB's recommended speedloader:


... I don't know how much that will help you concentrate... in fact, you might forget about shooting altogether! What were we talking about again???

[MEDDAC19]

Quick question about your flinch. Are you wearing hearing protection? If you are not using good quality muffs and plugs, much of your flinch is from the muzzle blast. If, and I hope you are, you are only using one and not both, muffs and plugs, you might see if you can silence that pistol? I think most people flinch due to the noise of the shot and not much at all from the recoil. You said that you don't flinch at home when quietly using snap caps, maybe you can control your flinch by increasing your hearing protection.

[HighValleyRanch]

Good excellent advice above.
You did good on the first day at the range.
At least you narrowed down the problem to flinching.

1.flinching can be a reaction to the noise.
2. flinching can be a reaction to the recoil.
3. One can flinch because they want to hit the target as in snatching the trigger, or when you see the sight picture as correct, you are "jerking" the trigger break.

You need to find out which of these are causing your flinch. Please note that even archers "flinch" on the shot. This is not recoil nor noise, but anticipation of making the shot. It's a mental thing. So, flinching is not alway noise or recoil.

My friend that I am teaching to shoot has a bad flinch to the left.
I have him dry fire three shots at the range and then live fire three shots, all the time pretending that he is dry firing. That helped him for a while.

Another exercise that is good for recoil or noise flinch is to simply shoot into the burm, without aiming at anything in particular. The reason for this exerceise, even though it seem a waste of ammo, is to simply observe the recoil and let the body adjust to the noise and recoil without the target/shot anticipation. Many bullseye shooters use this exercise for practising time and rapid fire. Thus they can work on their followthrough and rhythm without the antication of trying to hit a target. the key is to separate the various elements so that you can work on the problem one thing at a time.

Dry fire 75% right now, so that you can imbed the proper muscle memory and use live fire to confirm that you are doing everything right.

You can also practice the dummy load exercise explained above by yourself.
Take two or three magazines and load them with random number of rounds. for example, four in one mag, two in another, five in the third. Load a random dummy round or snap cap in the mags as well. Put the mags into a range bag, mix them up, reach in and grab one without trying to figure which is which. Load it, and concentrate on pretending you are dry firing. When the gun "fires" on the dummy, you will be able to see if you have corrected your flinch. Pretend that each shot is going to hit the dummy round and be determined to have the sight perfectly aligned through the shot.

If you find that your flinch is NOT because of recoil or noise, i.e. you are not flinching while shooting blankly at the burm, and the flinch is because of hitting the target anticipation )over dressing the shot, etc. That kind of flinch takes very different types of exercises.

That's why you need to determine the cause of the flinch.

[MidKnight]

Took my third trip to the range today. My first 4 targets were awesome!!! Below is a picture of my third because I took 15 shots at it instead of the 5 or 10 on the other targets... give you a better idea of how I'm doing. My targets later in the session deteriorated maybe due to cockiness or to fatigue or something.

Now, I'm not bullseying (sp??) but I'm getting more consistant. And I have no way of telling if the sights are a shade off on the gun either so...

Anyways, a big thank you to everyone that posted above, it all help a lot. I'll post back after I take some more trips to the range!!! Thanks again!

[HighValleyRanch]

Great!
But get yourself a bigger bullseye. Trying to shoot that small bull will cause you to start snatching the trigger. Bigger bull re-enforces the concept of holding area rather than "snatch the trigger when the sight picture is right on" concept. Better yet, just use a blank sheet of paper and only focus on the sight alignment! You would be amazed at the groups you can shoot that way.

Out at the range today while the Sheriffs firearms instrutor was teaching some new recruits.
Had two good exercises he was doing with them.
First was a negative target. Instead of a bulleye on the target, he used a cutout on a sillouette target. You could simple cut out say a 6 to 8 inch hold in cardboard.
Then your goal is to shoot through the hole. This is easier on the mind than trying to hit a bullseye. In your mind you say, I can easily shoot all my rounds through that big hole. It's kind of positive negative shooting.

Same as when excellent shooters just punch out the center of their targets and just keep shooting through the same hole. They are just trying to minimize the errant shots, rather than worrying about each shot in particular. That re-enforces the aiming area principle.

Second exercise he had the shooter hold the front blade right on the target and he, while standing to the side of the shooter, pulled the trigger for them. The shooters finger was along the slide and not on the trigger. This exercise was to focus only on hold and the shooter in no way could anticipate when the shot would go off.
Excellent exercises for the new shooter in my opinion.