BAD situation today

[TooTall]

Under those circumstances, it sounds like you reacted properly. No weapon was seen, so deadly force was NOT one of your options.

As someone else pointed out, it is entirely possible that one of the employees had already called the local police. The off-duty cook probably called the owner just to cover his rear-side.

I often took my mom out for meals when she was in her 80's, living alone, and in need of getting out of the house for awhile. Don't stop doing that just because you had one negative situation!

My mom passed away when she was 89 years old. She had been on her own for over 6 years, for my dad passed on when he was 82. One of the best times I had with my dad was when he was 79, and I took him out for what turned out to be his last shooting trip. The "old man" could still hit what he aimed at, and I was really proud of him! I had great parents and miss them a lot!

[Puppy]

If someone proclaims to be armed - its prudent to assume that they are.

[WhyteP38]

At the risk of getting severely flamed, what about discreetly drawing your piece when the kid made the grab for his pants? At least you would have been ready had the kid actually pulled a gun. Chances are that anyone present was watching the kid, not you. The kid certainly wasn't watchng you. And you don't have to display your piece. Just pull it enough to clear your holster.

Obviously, it depends on where you are in the place. If you're standing in line, putting your hand on the grip (as you said you did) is probably the most you can do without drawing attention to yourself or making a bad situation worse. But it seems like you were seated and possibly in an area where your draw could go unseen.

As for shielding your mother, given that she's 80, sounds like doing so might have injured her worse than the immediate situation called for.

As for shooting a "child," anyone who is trying to kill you is not your friend, regardless of age or acquaintance.

[bruchi]

Good you are not the person I refer to, that one seemed to be some teenager with time to waste, stories to yarn, still seeing your "background" serving "AVON" warrants, I can't get your lack of reaction and even more your need to relate the incident here if it was not worth reacting to?

[TexasSIGMan]

At the risk of getting severely flamed, what about discreetly drawing your piece when the kid made the grab for his pants?

If you carry IWB there's no way in hell you can draw discreetly. There's nothing discreet about a grown man ripping his shirt up out of his pants.

(This is why I don't carry IWB myself, but most people seem to).

[BillCA]

Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt. Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we except this type of garbage.

I don't understand the comment about not wanting to kill a child. 1st, a 12 year old can kill you just as dead as a 45 year old could. 2nd, It has nothing to do with killing someone else, it's about saving you and your mother's life.

Ah, welcome to 21st Century America.

Let's suppose we decide that 5 pre-teens running amok have pissed you off enough to get up and grab one or two by the collar. You manage to pull the little punks out the door while avoiding flailing arms and feet aimed at your knees or groin. Yell at the others and with luck they scamper out, worried about your threat to call the cops. But your day is only beginning. Even if you call the cops then, they'll claim they were just being noisy when you manhandled them, assaulted them and dragged them outside. You'll be lucky if one of them doesn't accuse you of trying to grope them too. That's the way some of these smart-a** kids work. Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.

Even if you manage to collar the ringleader and verbally command them all outside you're still in potential danger. If the kid does have a gun you've just embarrassed him in front of his peers and he may attempt retribution on you and the entire shop.

While the 2nd quote above is true, if you shoot a pre-teen you need to expect the press and possibly the authorities to drag you over hot coals. If the kid pulls a GAMO pistol after declaring he has a gun and all you see is the grip as he reaches for it, it'll be an expensive shot by the time you get done with both criminal and civil lawyers. You may be cleared, but so will your bank account. Hell, it may be that way even if it's a real gun.

This is one reason why some people freeze up. That fear of being "raped" by the system over something done by a criminal or stupid idiot. In the Seattle mall incident, I'd like to think I would have performed perfectly, but if you see the face of a teen who barely has to shave, you wonder how bad the legal system will treat you.

The reality is that it only takes a prosecutor running for re-election to decide that someone shooting "kids" should be an example of his zeal to protect the public.

[kennybs plbg]

Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.

Now you sound like my wife. Your worried about being sued for inflicting "emotional trauma" but willing to take your chances for pulling your handgun and taking one or two children out with it. The statement of them having a gun didn't come out until the very end as they were being taken out the door.

Let me fill you in here, things aren't as bad as you think. Most of these kids parents/parent have no idea whats going on and actually would want to know. Some will always side with the children, but the message is still sent and don't think the children don't understand whats going on.

It must be sad to go through life in fear of everything.

kenny b

[Wisby]

I would have called 911 immediatlly and told them about the 5 kids....

I would have told the 911 operator that one of them said he had a Gun...

I would have told my Mom to sit tight for a sec and trailed the kids (if vesiable) untill the Cops got to them...

But thats just me, I don't think anyone should say "I have a Gun" and be joking or trying to be big in front of his friends.

[invention_45]

TexSigman:

I think he might be able to subtly "draw". Or at least "pre-draw". By this I mean, depending on how things are configured (seating, where the kids' attention seemed to be focused, etc.) Sir W might have just slowly grasped the grip, even if through a jacket or untucked shirt, and wiggled it so that the weapon was loose enough to remove quickly.

My IWB holster is fairly quick to draw from if I'm standing up. But I KNOW, because I've tried, that when I sit the leather flexes enough so the gun's stuck in there. You are right, there's no quick draw from even a properly fitted IWB while sitting.

However, it might have been possible to subtly make it so without being seen, and without actually drawing it. Maybe even pull it out and set it on the seat for maximum readiness, since there was a threat.

I am starting to get in the habit that when I sit while carrying IWB I do this loosening operation as a matter of routine. I'm sitting still, so even if I expose the trigger a little there's no risk. When I get up the gun would probably fall back in place, but I'll never know. I'm developing the habit of giving the grip a little shove through my untucked shirt as I stand up to leave.

I've been reading a lot about how criminals think and how to avoid crime. Pretty much, if you fail to avoid victimhood, like what happened to Sir W, or like in a robbery, and the BG has a gun, you are most likely to find out after it's already pointed at you. By then, it's probably way too late to start cold, draw, aim, and shoot before you're dead.

The key is situation awareness. That doesn't mean just comprehending a developing threat. It means taking steps to avoid/head off that situation as it unfolds.

I can tell you how I would have reacted, and this is NOT to criticize Sir W.



First, no sitting with my back to the door.

Then, sit as close to the door as practical. This also usually avoids being seated next to the stinky restroom.

Then, the minute I hear/see any sign of a ruckus of any kind, THAT is the time to get the gun loose enough to use quickly. That doesn't mean I pull it out or display it. And a mere ruckus or argument isn't quite enough, unless there's something special about it, to yank my 80 year old mother up out of a restaurant and leave without paying.

If it looks like that ruckus might be getting out of hand and my party and me are in a position to do so, I GTFO !!!

But, failing that, if weapons or threats of weapons materialize, I either make the gun very loose in the holster or put it in my lap and click the safety off.

Then, if a weapon gets pointed in my direction, I have a chance.

When I first started taking this approach, it seemed wildly paranoid and awkwardly silly. But now it's really becoming a habit. I will once in a while find myself seated near the door and forget whether I asked or not.

[WhyteP38]

If you carry IWB there's no way in hell you can draw discreetly. There's nothing discreet about a grown man ripping his shirt up out of his pants.

I have a tuckable IWB holster and carry with my shirt bloused. With one hand, I can discreetly pull out the shirt and draw the weapon. It is definitely not as fast of a draw as the traditional shirt-rip, but it gives me another option to the shirt-rip.

If I'm sitting in a booth at a restaurant, it would be hard for anyone to see my weapon under the table. If I'm standing in line, the people behind me could probably see it pretty well.

NOTE ADDED: If someone does see your gun, it could make things worse. Another CCW holder may think you're part of the "gang" and draw on you. More likely, someone will shout, "He's got a gun!" and cause a panic. In an ambiguous situation such as SW faced, having your hand on the grip and ready to draw is probably the overall best response: Your reaction time is reduced but you're not escalating the situation.

[WhyteP38]

While the 2nd quote above is true, if you shoot a pre-teen you need to expect the press and possibly the authorities to drag you over hot coals. If the kid pulls a GAMO pistol after declaring he has a gun and all you see is the grip as he reaches for it, it'll be an expensive shot by the time you get done with both criminal and civil lawyers. You may be cleared, but so will your bank account. Hell, it may be that way even if it's a real gun.

You should not pull the trigger unless you believe that doing so would prevent serious bodily injury, sexual assault, or death to yourself or innocent persons. If the alternative is to be severely injured or killed, I would rather be on the living side of that equation and take my risks with the legal system than to be dead or have my family members/friends dead. Letting yourself or others be killed or severely injured--possibly permanently handicapped--out of fear of the legal system doesn't make sense to me. If you're that afraid, don't carry; it won't do you any good.

if you see the face of a teen who barely has to shave, you wonder how bad the legal system will treat you.

Better that than wondering how badly the funeral home will set up my open casket.

[claude783]

Do you suppose that if the Gremlin had a gun, that the guy calling 911 might have escalated the situation to where the "gun" might have been brought out and then the lead might have started flying.

By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?

I know you want to play the Charles Bronson Death Wish scene, Do you believe in Jesus?

Yes,

Good, cause your gonna meet him...boom!

I have a friend who is 19 and I take her to the cemetary to lay flowers on her father's grave...while there look at the tombstones and am quite amazed at how many "Gremlins" have found their just rewards!

[WhyteP38]

Do you suppose that if the Gremlin had a gun, that the guy calling 911 might have escalated the situation to where the "gun" might have been brought out and then the lead might have started flying.

By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?

Until we can read each other's minds, you'll never have an answer to that question.

I believe it's just as possible--in fact, more likely--that the kid, if he really had a gun, would have beat a hasty retreat if he expected the police were on their way. I believe it's just as possible--in fact, more likely--that the kid, if he really had a gun, would have used the gun if he thought he could do so BEFORE the police were called.

I submit that most bad people, adults or kids, are more likely to leave if they think the police are coming, and conversely they are more likely to harm you if they think they can do so before you call the police. If you had someone pounding angrily on your front door, would you shout, "I've called the police!" or "I have not called the police!"?

[kiov]

It sounds like you did the right thing.

If you didn't have a gun, and your mom wasn't there, you could have followed them out, found a quieter spot, and beat the sh** out of them--starting by busting the fingers of the one who said he had a gun. Act all friendly, then strike without warning. No, "hey you, come here!" If the cops ever catch up with you plead self defense. No weapon, no rabid procecutor, they let you go. When you are armed you can't get in a scrape just cause some jerk(s) deserves it.

Since you had the piece on you, its best to stay out of it. Sombody else, like Lenny, will take care of them soon enough. I would have probably left with Mom when they started acting up. Otherwise, I'd be quietly drawing my gun under the table when he said he had a piece, in case he did start firing. Then you shoot to kill, no choice.

kiov

[Eghad]

The best thing would have been to call 911 with a good description of the young lad. If the Police managed to round him up he could have enjoyed thier hospitality.

[WhyteP38]

In reading through this thread, I see the following nearly polar-opposite responses:

kennybs plbg (western NY)

Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt.

and BillCA (Kalifornia)

Let's suppose we decide that 5 pre-teens running amok have pissed you off enough to get up and grab one or two by the collar. You manage to pull the little punks out the door while avoiding flailing arms and feet aimed at your knees or groin. Yell at the others and with luck they scamper out, worried about your threat to call the cops. But your day is only beginning. Even if you call the cops then, they'll claim they were just being noisy when you manhandled them, assaulted them and dragged them outside. You'll be lucky if one of them doesn't accuse you of trying to grope them too. That's the way some of these smart-a** kids work. Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.

Seems like our responses are conditioned by our environments. I grew up in Indiana, and if I still lived there, Kenny's response would probably work. I also lived in the PRK for 16 years, and if I still lived there, Bill's response would probably be the right response. (In the PRK, self-defense of any kind is considered an infringement on the delicate psyches of criminals, which makes YOU the bad guy.)

So it seems that the right response depends in large part on where you live.

[stephen426]

I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this type of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse? I hate little punks like that and would have told them to STFU and leave. If they got stupid, I would pepper spray them. These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the food chain before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!

[WhyteP38]

I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this tyoe of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse?

I agree with you because I've seen it happen, several times. It's a pattern of pushing the envelope until the envelope breaks. Plus the process of nurturing a conscience in a kid, which is easiest when they're young but which a lot of parents fail to do. Parents and others who allow or enable this kind of behavior and attitude are doing the kids a disservice, sometimes literally a grave disservice.

These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the totem pole before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!

In places like Indiana, Virginia, or Florida, you're probably right. In places like the PRK, probably not. The PRK didn't get that way by accident.

[invention_45]

Despite the new laws, I think I'd still be a little careful what I did in Florida.

Just because there's a statute that says you can't be arrested or sued, doesn't mean somebody won't screw up and create a great headache for you anyway. For example:

Law says that, upon being served with a Final (not Temporary) restraining order you must surrender all guns and ammunition.

But the judges or whoever have decided to put, on the face of the TEMPORARY restraining order, the command that you surrender them.

Since you don't go before the judge until the hearing that makes the RO final, you never get heard on the issue of surrendering your hardware during the temporary RO.

So, it's good that we have laws that try to give victims a chance to survive. But it can take years for all the judges, cops, and state attorneys to make them work. In the meantime, I'd try to err on the side of caution.

[Michigan Mason]

Just a question on the cell phone thing...Lots of people have them with the camera built in snap a few pics of the group and when police are called let them know the gun referance was made and tell the police you have some pics of the group in the shop at the time. With all the noise they were making as long as a flash didn't go off they would be none the wiser that a pic was taken and wouldn't hear the sound of the shutter either. Just the new guys 2cents.

[nscale]

I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this tyoe of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse? I hate little punks like that and would have told them to STFU and leave. If they got stupid, I would pepper spray them. These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the totem pole before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!

AMEN Brother

SirWilliam, I am sure you did everything right my friend.
As already mentioned, everyone went home alive.

Personnally I would have been in jail and my sweet mother would have to come bail me out. Because as soon as I heard "I Have A Gun" I would have grabbed the kid by the collar, pulled my weapon and gently (yea right) placed it against his neck. His friends would all be crouched in the corner as we waited for the law to arrive. While waiting, I would explain how dangerous it is to say you have a gun if you dont...bla..bla..
When the law arrives, and before I get shot, I surrender the weapon and release the kid to the officer.
I would be handcuffed and escorted to a place of rest (jail) for a couple of hours and the sweet darling children will be taken home by the officers. I believe at least one will need a change of undies.
I would then use my one phone call to my Mom and ask her to be kind enough to bail me out. Oh yea, she would have been the witness that was yelling the entire time. Shoot Em Sonny!

[CyberSEAL]

If someone announced to me they had a gun, after behaving in that manner publicly, I would have had my hand on my piece, safety on, hammer down, ready to draw. That's all...

[Mastrogiacomo]

I would have done the same...my hand on my gun and ready to shoot if someone made an announcement "I have a gun!" I don't care how old, read the newspapers these days? "Kids" no more....

[aspen1964]

...such a situation is not easy to handle since the system protects brats too...at first sign of bad behaviour the owner tells the brats to behave or get out...if they raise the ante..he immeadiately gets the phone and calls the police..at the same one or two customers should get up from the table to show the brats that the owner isn't alone...most punks don't like multiple opposition(one is easier for them to taunt)...although many of us wish we had the liberty to chunk them onto the sidewalk, the law can work against us if we man-handle them without just cause(in the law's eyes)...personally I don't automatically think a kid is packing a gun(the odds are far against it)..they want people to fear them..so the guy who minds his own business is guaranteeing that they will continue to raise hell...you make social-trash back down by making them feel outnumbered...I have my fair share of kid-trash who try to walk me off a sidewalk or make me step aside...if I know he is trying to do so..he bounces off my shoulder(the teeny wenches are often the worst)...I never treat anyone (including kids) disrespectfully for no reason..nor will I let any kid buffalo me...one more thing..if a kid pulls a gun he is just as likely to get shot by me as any adult...I wouldn't feel any more remorse because of it..

my tongue-in-cheek alternative is that every time a punk acts like that you go to his parent's house and beat the crap out of the father and mother until they get tired of it and start to parent their kids...

[jimpeel]

I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child.

A "child" with a firearm, and threatening to use it, is no longer a child. He is fair game. You seem to think that a child cannot kill you as dead as an adult can.