New old Gun day - Mauser 98

mikejonestkd · November 2, 2019, 05:37 PM

Good day all, I found a much loved mauser 98 today and am having trouble identifying its origin and year of manufacturer.

It looks like a standard K98, 8mm, full length rifle with a military issue stock.
24" barrel, 2000m sights, and looks to be all original.

There are no factory marking on the top of the front receiver like every other mauser I have seen - and only 4441 and a small PW stamp on the left side of the receiver. The Bolt is also stamped 4441.
There is a PW also stamped in the left side of the buttstock, next to the rear sling mount.

I pulled the top handguard off, there is a 0 over a 33 stamp on the top of the barrel, and a Z and an X on the left side of the barrel.

I do not have a camera at the moment, which I am sure would greatly assist in identification...

what do I have?

Tidewater_Kid · November 3, 2019, 09:53 AM

Without pictures, it is very difficult to determine. My guess is that it is a Czech Vz-24. Only a guess since it could be almost anything.

mikejonestkd · November 3, 2019, 02:33 PM

https://www.flickr.com/photos/185306.../shares/9t28A4

Hope these help

highpower3006 · November 3, 2019, 03:52 PM

The pictures are too dark to pick out any real detail. But if the bolt truly matches the receiver serial number, since it has a straight bolt handle I would go with a WAG that it might be a VZ24.

mikejonestkd · November 3, 2019, 05:55 PM

I added a few more: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185306...h/49009688947/

Mk VII · November 3, 2019, 06:25 PM

Doesn't look like a 98k, the handguard is different.

mikejonestkd · November 3, 2019, 06:45 PM

the more I look into it, the more it matches a VZ-24.

any idea on how to date it?

TB9 · November 3, 2019, 07:22 PM

Looks like an arisaka to me

TB9 · November 3, 2019, 07:24 PM

Oh and the first one looks like a vz24 also

mikejonestkd · November 3, 2019, 07:37 PM

TB9, i'll throw the arisaka pics in their own album tonight. I started another thread on it.

**44 AMP** · November 5, 2019, 01:37 AM

The VZ-24 I have has a slightly different handguard (which is no big deal) but it has the serial number on the left side of the chamber and the BRNO name and vz-24 on the left side of the action between the chamber and the thumb slot.

IF yours is a VZ-24 it has been "sanitized" by having the markings removed. Possibly. The straight bolt handle is right for the VZ-24 and some other Mausers but not for a 98K.

I'm afraid I don't have any clue what your rifle actually is, only that its not what it ought to me marked.

mikejonestkd · November 5, 2019, 08:58 PM

Thank for the info, everything seems to point to a VZ-24.

The stock is rough but decent enough for the cost, the action is smooth and the barrel is decent. I look forward to enjoying it once i clean it up a bit.

I got it for a song, so I am not too concerned about collector value.

**44 AMP** · November 6, 2019, 01:33 AM

Quote:

I got it for a song, so I am not too concerned about collector value.

Unless someone finds some documentation about an "unmarked" VZ (or what ever mauser it is) and that can be linked to your rifle, there's no collector value to speak of. Only the shooter value of a functional Mauser action military rifle.

Here's a possibility, but its only a wild guess, I heard that some of the Nazi rifles that wound up going to Israel were "scrubbed" to have the Nazi markings removed (which makes sense, really) and your rifle possibly might be from a batch of those.

Sometimes guns really travel! A few years back there was a P.08 Luger shown on the forum that had been made for the Dutch, (delivered before the German attack in 1940,) sent to the Dutch East Indies, captured by the Japanese in 41, and captured by the Americans from the Japanese in the Philippines in 44/45 then brought back to the US.

Your Mauser (or VZ) without any markings other than a few numbers could have a lot of different stories to tell but we can only guess.

emcon5 · November 7, 2019, 08:19 PM

Pretty unlikely it is Israeli, they scrubbed swastikas, but not much else. They certainly wouldn't care if it had CZ on the rail, they bought new Mausers from CZ and they came marked. There would also be IDF property marks, and they were pretty much standardized on the Kar98K pattern when they were reworked and converted to 7.62.

If the bolt matches the action, then the stock looks strange. It looks like it has a cutout for a turned down bolt, which it probably would not have had originally. VZ24s came both ways, so it is possible the stock is original though.

The only completely unmarked Mauser I can think of was the post war Yugo M48"BO" but those had turned down bolts, and since they were M48 pattern were slightly shorter action than the standard Mauser98 and VZ24 length.

If you take it out of the stock be VERY careful with the handguard, some are held on with a spring clip on the barrel, and you need to pop that off with a screwdriver or something once the stock is removed, if you try and pull it off you will probably rip the spring clip screws out of the handguard.

Curious if there are any markings under the wood line.

mikejonestkd · November 7, 2019, 09:04 PM

I pulled the action out of the stock and there are no additional stamps or marks to identify it.

The front receiver ring has not been ground and refinished- the bluing perfectly matches the rest of the action and it looks factory original. same for the receiver- no grinding marks or evidence of a refinishing job.

All info I have gathered points to a VZ-24, which is good enough for me. Dies and brass landed, and I have loads prepped for the weekend range trip.

mikejonestkd · November 12, 2019, 10:00 PM

Range trip update- the rifle shot poorly.
I brought along 10 different loads - consisting of 150 and 170 gr Speer bullets and either varget or H4895 powder in different charge weights. All charges were starting at the low end of the data and working up in 1 gr increments.

I was hoping to at least get acquainted with the rifle and get lucky with at least one combo that would shoot acceptably.

The best group shot 4" at 50 yards.
Several others were shotgun patterns.

Might be time to slug the bore and see what I am really working with....

emcon5 · November 13, 2019, 12:42 AM

Take a look at this thread over on Gunboards, it is simple stuff you can do to really improve the accuracy of a military Mauser.

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...ture-98k/page2

It isn't exactly the same rifle, but all of the steps apply.

What were you using for a target? I made up a printable versions of the WW2 era German acceptance target for Kar98k, scaled to 50, 75, and 100 yards. It looks funny, but is the best target I have used for Mauser iron sights (You use a 6:00 hold). It is really easy to get a repeatable sight picture with Mauser sights.

You can find the download links and instructions here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1152019

ernie8 · November 13, 2019, 04:18 PM

Your first problem is Speer 8mm bullets , the are really bad out of military 8mm rifles . Try the Hornady 150 or 170 , and do not load them at max , or too light depending on the data . The 150 at 2400 to 2600 fps and the 170 about 100 fps less . Next slug your bore and check the last couple of inches of rifling . If you rifle is a VZ-24 , they used a wide band rifling some with a groove dia as large as .328 .

mikejonestkd · November 13, 2019, 06:47 PM

Thanks for the tip about using Hornady bullets, time to place another order online...
Now, I gotta burn up a bunch of speer bullets, as no one near me loads for 8mm..

emcon5 · November 13, 2019, 11:12 PM

Quote:

and do not load them at max , or too light depending on the data . The 150 at 2400 to 2600 fps and the 170 about 100 fps less .

Why so slow? The original 1905 ~150 gr S Patrone was almost 2900 FPS (through a ~29" barrel" and the 1933 195gr s.S. Patrone was just under 2500 FPS from a ~24" barrel, the same length as rifle he is shooting. The Romanian ~155 gr stuff from the 1970s averaged 2670 fps from a 24" Kar98K.

My handloads with 175 Sierra Gamekings are 2490 FPS with a middle of the range load of Varget, and it shoots great.

ernie8 · November 14, 2019, 07:41 AM

He was talking about accuracy and those velocities are a good starting point . With rifles with a larger groove dia , too much velocity will start to hurt accuracy . I said a good velocity for the 170 was about 2500 , which you said was too slow , yet you like a 175 at 2490 ? Also 1905 is not a correct date for the S round [ and the S bullet was not .323 dia like what he is using ] and neither in 1933 for the 198 sS round .

emcon5 · November 14, 2019, 02:00 PM

S Patrone was 1903, not 1905 I fat fingered it. s.S. Patrone was 1933, and both were .323".

The Patrone 88 from 1888 was a ~220gr Round Nose with a 0.318" diameter.

His rifle is made for .323" bullets.

Before you start over buying new bullets, you should look at the gunboards link I posted above. Make sure the action fits properly in the stock, if not, shim it to correct. Make sure the barrel doesn't contact the bayonet lug, make sure the action isn't touching the magazine box, and the barrel should be floated from the stock and handguard except for a pressure point at the very front just behind the bayonet lug.

ernie8 · November 14, 2019, 02:36 PM

Wrong dates again . The S ammo was not 1903 [ I have a collection of 100's of original rounds ] , it has a .321 dia bullet . Just measure original ammo . I have sS ammo dated as early as 1914 . All 1933 is when it was made standard for all arms, then it was replaced in 1941 . If he is getting 4 inch and worse groups at 50 yards , bedding is not the problem . The bullets and load need to be good first . It does not matter how many shims you put in one , the wrong bullet will never shoot well . I have and shoot over 600 8mm Mauser rifles and never had to shim any . I have shot them in military rifle matches for over 20 years , many of my good shooting ones turn in 1 to 1.5 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards . My very best group ever in a match was a .0635 with a VZ-24 of all things . But what you think is "shooting very good " may not be the same as what I think . The SI -175 bullet is way down the list of my good shooting bullets in military rifles .

mikejonestkd · November 17, 2019, 05:39 PM

Another range trip today after a good bore cleaning, and the results were still disappointing. 6" at 50 yards was about norm for all handloads.

The bore is worn, but no worse than any other mil surplus rifles that shoot way better than this masuer.

Time to start with the basics, I'll pull the action from the stock again and go over the fit and bedding to see if there is something wonky. I'll also slug the bore and see what I am working with..

mikejonestkd · December 8, 2019, 01:37 PM

An update:

I took the rifle apart, scrubbed the snot out of the barrel, action, and got a ton of copper fouling out of the barrel.
I loaded up some 170 gr Hornady round nose bullets and IMR 4064.
The rifle shot them fairly well- slightly less than 3" at 50 yards, which is not great, but at least I am going in the right direction.

November 2, 2019, 05:37 PM	#1
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	New old Gun day - Mauser 98 Good day all, I found a much loved mauser 98 today and am having trouble identifying its origin and year of manufacturer. It looks like a standard K98, 8mm, full length rifle with a military issue stock. 24" barrel, 2000m sights, and looks to be all original. There are no factory marking on the top of the front receiver like every other mauser I have seen - and only 4441 and a small PW stamp on the left side of the receiver. The Bolt is also stamped 4441. There is a PW also stamped in the left side of the buttstock, next to the rear sling mount. I pulled the top handguard off, there is a 0 over a 33 stamp on the top of the barrel, and a Z and an X on the left side of the barrel. I do not have a camera at the moment, which I am sure would greatly assist in identification... what do I have? __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 3, 2019, 02:33 PM	#3
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	https://www.flickr.com/photos/185306.../shares/9t28A4 Hope these help __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 3, 2019, 05:55 PM	#5
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	I added a few more: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185306...h/49009688947/ __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 3, 2019, 06:45 PM	#7
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	the more I look into it, the more it matches a VZ-24. any idea on how to date it? __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 3, 2019, 07:22 PM	#8
TB9 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2013 Location: N.H Posts: 120	Looks like an arisaka to me __________________ Why thats... Brilliant ! now go lay down by youre dish and shut up .

November 3, 2019, 09:53 AM	#2
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	Without pictures, it is very difficult to determine. My guess is that it is a Czech Vz-24. Only a guess since it could be almost anything.

November 3, 2019, 03:52 PM	#4
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	The pictures are too dark to pick out any real detail. But if the bolt truly matches the receiver serial number, since it has a straight bolt handle I would go with a WAG that it might be a VZ24.

November 3, 2019, 06:25 PM	#6
Mk VII Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2000 Location: England Posts: 455	Doesn't look like a 98k, the handguard is different.

November 3, 2019, 07:24 PM	#9
TB9 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2013 Location: N.H Posts: 120	Oh and the first one looks like a vz24 also __________________ Why thats... Brilliant ! now go lay down by youre dish and shut up .

November 3, 2019, 07:37 PM	#10
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	TB9, i'll throw the arisaka pics in their own album tonight. I started another thread on it. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 5, 2019, 01:37 AM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	The VZ-24 I have has a slightly different handguard (which is no big deal) but it has the serial number on the left side of the chamber and the BRNO name and vz-24 on the left side of the action between the chamber and the thumb slot. IF yours is a VZ-24 it has been "sanitized" by having the markings removed. Possibly. The straight bolt handle is right for the VZ-24 and some other Mausers but not for a 98K. I'm afraid I don't have any clue what your rifle actually is, only that its not what it ought to me marked. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 5, 2019, 08:58 PM	#12
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	Thank for the info, everything seems to point to a VZ-24. The stock is rough but decent enough for the cost, the action is smooth and the barrel is decent. I look forward to enjoying it once i clean it up a bit. I got it for a song, so I am not too concerned about collector value. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 7, 2019, 08:19 PM	#14
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Pretty unlikely it is Israeli, they scrubbed swastikas, but not much else. They certainly wouldn't care if it had CZ on the rail, they bought new Mausers from CZ and they came marked. There would also be IDF property marks, and they were pretty much standardized on the Kar98K pattern when they were reworked and converted to 7.62. If the bolt matches the action, then the stock looks strange. It looks like it has a cutout for a turned down bolt, which it probably would not have had originally. VZ24s came both ways, so it is possible the stock is original though. The only completely unmarked Mauser I can think of was the post war Yugo M48"BO" but those had turned down bolts, and since they were M48 pattern were slightly shorter action than the standard Mauser98 and VZ24 length. If you take it out of the stock be VERY careful with the handguard, some are held on with a spring clip on the barrel, and you need to pop that off with a screwdriver or something once the stock is removed, if you try and pull it off you will probably rip the spring clip screws out of the handguard. Curious if there are any markings under the wood line.

November 7, 2019, 09:04 PM	#15
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	I pulled the action out of the stock and there are no additional stamps or marks to identify it. The front receiver ring has not been ground and refinished- the bluing perfectly matches the rest of the action and it looks factory original. same for the receiver- no grinding marks or evidence of a refinishing job. All info I have gathered points to a VZ-24, which is good enough for me. Dies and brass landed, and I have loads prepped for the weekend range trip. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 12, 2019, 10:00 PM	#16
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	Range trip update- the rifle shot poorly. I brought along 10 different loads - consisting of 150 and 170 gr Speer bullets and either varget or H4895 powder in different charge weights. All charges were starting at the low end of the data and working up in 1 gr increments. I was hoping to at least get acquainted with the rifle and get lucky with at least one combo that would shoot acceptably. The best group shot 4" at 50 yards. Several others were shotgun patterns. Might be time to slug the bore and see what I am really working with.... __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 13, 2019, 12:42 AM	#17
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Take a look at this thread over on Gunboards, it is simple stuff you can do to really improve the accuracy of a military Mauser. https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...ture-98k/page2 It isn't exactly the same rifle, but all of the steps apply. What were you using for a target? I made up a printable versions of the WW2 era German acceptance target for Kar98k, scaled to 50, 75, and 100 yards. It looks funny, but is the best target I have used for Mauser iron sights (You use a 6:00 hold). It is really easy to get a repeatable sight picture with Mauser sights. You can find the download links and instructions here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1152019

November 13, 2019, 04:18 PM	#18
ernie8 Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2018 Posts: 217	Your first problem is Speer 8mm bullets , the are really bad out of military 8mm rifles . Try the Hornady 150 or 170 , and do not load them at max , or too light depending on the data . The 150 at 2400 to 2600 fps and the 170 about 100 fps less . Next slug your bore and check the last couple of inches of rifling . If you rifle is a VZ-24 , they used a wide band rifling some with a groove dia as large as .328 .

November 13, 2019, 06:47 PM	#19
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	Thanks for the tip about using Hornady bullets, time to place another order online... Now, I gotta burn up a bunch of speer bullets, as no one near me loads for 8mm.. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 14, 2019, 07:41 AM	#21
ernie8 Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2018 Posts: 217	He was talking about accuracy and those velocities are a good starting point . With rifles with a larger groove dia , too much velocity will start to hurt accuracy . I said a good velocity for the 170 was about 2500 , which you said was too slow , yet you like a 175 at 2490 ? Also 1905 is not a correct date for the S round [ and the S bullet was not .323 dia like what he is using ] and neither in 1933 for the 198 sS round .

November 14, 2019, 02:00 PM	#22
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	S Patrone was 1903, not 1905 I fat fingered it. s.S. Patrone was 1933, and both were .323". The Patrone 88 from 1888 was a ~220gr Round Nose with a 0.318" diameter. His rifle is made for .323" bullets. Before you start over buying new bullets, you should look at the gunboards link I posted above. Make sure the action fits properly in the stock, if not, shim it to correct. Make sure the barrel doesn't contact the bayonet lug, make sure the action isn't touching the magazine box, and the barrel should be floated from the stock and handguard except for a pressure point at the very front just behind the bayonet lug.

November 14, 2019, 02:36 PM	#23
ernie8 Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2018 Posts: 217	Wrong dates again . The S ammo was not 1903 [ I have a collection of 100's of original rounds ] , it has a .321 dia bullet . Just measure original ammo . I have sS ammo dated as early as 1914 . All 1933 is when it was made standard for all arms, then it was replaced in 1941 . If he is getting 4 inch and worse groups at 50 yards , bedding is not the problem . The bullets and load need to be good first . It does not matter how many shims you put in one , the wrong bullet will never shoot well . I have and shoot over 600 8mm Mauser rifles and never had to shim any . I have shot them in military rifle matches for over 20 years , many of my good shooting ones turn in 1 to 1.5 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards . My very best group ever in a match was a .0635 with a VZ-24 of all things . But what you think is "shooting very good " may not be the same as what I think . The SI -175 bullet is way down the list of my good shooting bullets in military rifles .

November 17, 2019, 05:39 PM	#24
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	Another range trip today after a good bore cleaning, and the results were still disappointing. 6" at 50 yards was about norm for all handloads. The bore is worn, but no worse than any other mil surplus rifles that shoot way better than this masuer. Time to start with the basics, I'll pull the action from the stock again and go over the fit and bedding to see if there is something wonky. I'll also slug the bore and see what I am working with.. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

December 8, 2019, 01:37 PM	#25
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	An update: I took the rifle apart, scrubbed the snot out of the barrel, action, and got a ton of copper fouling out of the barrel. I loaded up some 170 gr Hornady round nose bullets and IMR 4064. The rifle shot them fairly well- slightly less than 3" at 50 yards, which is not great, but at least I am going in the right direction. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.