Colt & Remington Pistols - Can someone help?

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 05:44 PM

I have an opportunity to purchase these two revolvers and I would like to get some advise. Basically, if they are real or replicas?

In the pictures of both revolvers, the Remington is on top.

Serial #s on the Colt are 86833. From the googling I did, I cannot find a reference to any #s near these. The cylinder is also marked Colt Patent No 833...again no luck on google.

The Remington looks to be a 1857 model from the pictures i could find.

Any and all help is very appreciated.

More pics to follow...

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 05:46 PM

More pics.

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 05:47 PM

And more pics

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 05:49 PM

Last of the pics.

Also, if there are any markings or specifics I should look for to confirm the identification of either revolver, please let me know. These are the only pictures I have for now.

pohill · July 3, 2011, 06:38 PM

Brighter pics with more detail would help alot.
Check out this site - that serial for a Colt 1851 .36 Navy falls around 1858.
That Remington has a semi-fluted cylinder, correct? I don't see nipples in the cylinder.

http://proofhouse.com/colt/index.html

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 07:05 PM

pohill - Best pics I have at the moment. Thanks for your insight. So would you think at least the Colt is not a replica?

Hawg · July 3, 2011, 07:08 PM

The Remington is an 1875. IMHO they've both been heavily polished and reblued.

pohill · July 3, 2011, 07:17 PM

It's tough to say for sure. Based on the serial number alone, I'd say it was original, but there are many fakes out there. The bluing looks too good to be real old, but that could be the clarity of the pic, or it could have been reblued, or it could be a pristine original. I don't see a cylinder scene, so it might have worn off before the reblue. The lettering looks almost too clear. Do you see any other markings on the side of the frame?
Like I said, if you can get some brighter pics...

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 07:18 PM

How much does the polishing and reblueing devalue these revolvers?

pohill · July 3, 2011, 07:27 PM

I have an original 1851 .36 that was most likely reblued a long time ago. The rebluing might have taken away from the value but, in my mind, it was a good thing because it preserved the gun (it's a shooter). I recently bought an H.Aston .54 caliber that was a real mess. I cleaned it up and actually increased its value.
I've heard both sides of the refinishing argument and most experts say to leave it as it is, and not refinish it. Tough call.

SD Armory · July 3, 2011, 08:09 PM

I just found some info on the 'US PATENT No 833' cylinder markings. 833 refers to the last three digits of the serial number, 86833. I thought this might be the case and after looking at the revolvers on this website, it confirms it.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...3&subcatID=150

Hawg · July 3, 2011, 10:09 PM

Yeah, a lot of people never figure that out. I've seen a lot of old Colt's being tauted as a matching numbers gun with the wrong cylinder' It should read
Colt's patent
No. 833

SD Armory · July 4, 2011, 12:50 AM

So the fact that the cylinder is marked 'COLT' and not 'COLTS' is a good sign to stay away, right?

Hawg · July 4, 2011, 02:33 AM

I'm by no means an expert but I've never seen one or a pic of one that just said Colt patent, they all said Colts. The Colt patent no 833 is very sharp and pristine looking for it to not have any cylinder scene left. I haven't handled a second or third gen so I don't know how they're marked. Maybe somebody did some work on the numbers and is trying to pass them off as originals. Go to some of the auction sites and look at some original guns. Gunbroker or Gunsamerica will have guns up with lots of closeup pics. Look at some of them and compare them to yours.

Frontier · July 8, 2011, 05:10 PM

Colt looks like it could be a tired old original that has been heavily worked on. It has been refinished - the frame should be case hardened - and the lettering and numbers have been mostly redone (not very well either).

Frontier

62coltnavy · July 11, 2011, 01:27 AM

definitely redone, and the cylinder is faked. The wording is wrong as is the shape of the letters and numbers. Plus as aothers have noted, the lack of a scene with such clear lettering is just not right. The guns were all numbered at the time of assembly--and hand stamped with the assembler's personal set of dies. The numbers should therefore always match, except in the rare case of an overstrike where he picked up the wrong tool.
Go to Gutterman's Historical Weapons if you want to see some real antiques in unrefinished condition. And look at the prices there also.

July 3, 2011, 06:38 PM	#5
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	Brighter pics with more detail would help alot. Check out this site - that serial for a Colt 1851 .36 Navy falls around 1858. That Remington has a semi-fluted cylinder, correct? I don't see nipples in the cylinder. http://proofhouse.com/colt/index.html Last edited by pohill; July 3, 2011 at 06:44 PM.

July 3, 2011, 07:05 PM	#6
SD Armory Junior Member Join Date: June 1, 2011 Posts: 11	pohill - Best pics I have at the moment. Thanks for your insight. So would you think at least the Colt is not a replica?

July 3, 2011, 07:08 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The Remington is an 1875. IMHO they've both been heavily polished and reblued.

July 3, 2011, 07:17 PM	#8
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	It's tough to say for sure. Based on the serial number alone, I'd say it was original, but there are many fakes out there. The bluing looks too good to be real old, but that could be the clarity of the pic, or it could have been reblued, or it could be a pristine original. I don't see a cylinder scene, so it might have worn off before the reblue. The lettering looks almost too clear. Do you see any other markings on the side of the frame? Like I said, if you can get some brighter pics...

July 3, 2011, 07:18 PM	#9
SD Armory Junior Member Join Date: June 1, 2011 Posts: 11	How much does the polishing and reblueing devalue these revolvers?

July 3, 2011, 07:27 PM	#10
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	I have an original 1851 .36 that was most likely reblued a long time ago. The rebluing might have taken away from the value but, in my mind, it was a good thing because it preserved the gun (it's a shooter). I recently bought an H.Aston .54 caliber that was a real mess. I cleaned it up and actually increased its value. I've heard both sides of the refinishing argument and most experts say to leave it as it is, and not refinish it. Tough call.

July 3, 2011, 08:09 PM	#11
SD Armory Junior Member Join Date: June 1, 2011 Posts: 11	I just found some info on the 'US PATENT No 833' cylinder markings. 833 refers to the last three digits of the serial number, 86833. I thought this might be the case and after looking at the revolvers on this website, it confirms it. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...3&subcatID=150

July 3, 2011, 10:09 PM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Yeah, a lot of people never figure that out. I've seen a lot of old Colt's being tauted as a matching numbers gun with the wrong cylinder' It should read Colt's patent No. 833

July 4, 2011, 12:50 AM	#13
SD Armory Junior Member Join Date: June 1, 2011 Posts: 11	So the fact that the cylinder is marked 'COLT' and not 'COLTS' is a good sign to stay away, right?

July 4, 2011, 02:33 AM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I'm by no means an expert but I've never seen one or a pic of one that just said Colt patent, they all said Colts. The Colt patent no 833 is very sharp and pristine looking for it to not have any cylinder scene left. I haven't handled a second or third gen so I don't know how they're marked. Maybe somebody did some work on the numbers and is trying to pass them off as originals. Go to some of the auction sites and look at some original guns. Gunbroker or Gunsamerica will have guns up with lots of closeup pics. Look at some of them and compare them to yours.

July 8, 2011, 05:10 PM	#15
Frontier Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Posts: 32	Colt looks like it could be a tired old original that has been heavily worked on. It has been refinished - the frame should be case hardened - and the lettering and numbers have been mostly redone (not very well either). Frontier

July 11, 2011, 01:27 AM	#16
62coltnavy Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2011 Posts: 356	definitely redone, and the cylinder is faked. The wording is wrong as is the shape of the letters and numbers. Plus as aothers have noted, the lack of a scene with such clear lettering is just not right. The guns were all numbered at the time of assembly--and hand stamped with the assembler's personal set of dies. The numbers should therefore always match, except in the rare case of an overstrike where he picked up the wrong tool. Go to Gutterman's Historical Weapons if you want to see some real antiques in unrefinished condition. And look at the prices there also.