Hmmmm how would I make this load work?

DaveInPA · February 19, 2008, 10:03 PM

I found this load on the hodgdon data site. I'm going to be loading some .45 ACP LSWC rounds. Here's my two concerns. The bullets I'm ordering are .452, not .451. Seconly, isn't their COL a little shorter than what most 1911s like? I've heard mainly 1.250 is good. Any thoughts?

200 GR. CAST LSWC
Powder - 231
Dia - .451"
COL - 1.225"
Charge - 4.4
Vel - 771

Sevens · February 19, 2008, 10:13 PM

Seat the SWC so there's a tiny band of lead protruding from the case mouth before the bullet begins it's taper. This band of lead is what will contact the feed ramp as it shucks in to the chamber.

At this point, don't worry about the bullet diameter. It'll be safe. You start by making sure your rounds are safe-- then you make sure they function and feed in your pistol. When those areas are covered, then you start looking for accuracy.

joneb · February 19, 2008, 10:20 PM

.452" is normal for .45acp Lead bullets. I would seat them out as far as your barrel chamber allows, for lead I will find the max C.O.A.L. for my chamber and add a few 1/1000's and then check if a loaded round in full battery will manually extract with ease. 1.250" sounds about right, for me I seat to 1.248 with LSWC.

DaveInPA · February 19, 2008, 10:24 PM

The question then becomes - do I need to adjust the powder charge when I adjust the COL?

Sarge · February 19, 2008, 10:26 PM

200 grain LSWCs that follow the Hensley & Gibbs #68 pattern, and loaded to 1.250" COL, will run slick through any properly set-up 1911 that is fed from good magazines. Run a tight taper crimp to insure easy entry to the chamber and prevent bullet set-back upon colliding with the frame ramp.

For small game/farm pests I load said bullet over 4.0 grains of W231 for 626 fps, from a 5" GI-pattern gun. That gun has about a 16 pound spring and feeds and ejects them fine. The load you listed should have plenty of oomph to cycle the gun provided that it isn't set up with heavy springs.

Check your COL with micrometers.

DaveInPA · February 19, 2008, 10:30 PM

The gun in question is a new Para Ordnance 1911, 5" barrel. I have no idea what tension the spring is. Are you saying I need a micrometer instead of calipers? This reloading stuff gets confusing

There are the bullets in question:
http://www.missouribullet.com/shop/d...=56&category=5

joneb · February 19, 2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

do I need to adjust the powder charge when I adjust the COL?

Possibly ? And this is where the fun begins

that is finding the best load for your gun, not mine. For .45acp I load 7rnds batches with various charges and seating depths, and take those 50-100rnds to gravel pit and shoot paper and take notes.

DaveInPA · February 19, 2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:
do I need to adjust the powder charge when I adjust the COL?
Possibly ? And this is where the fun begins that is finding the best load for your gun, not mine. For .45acp I load 7rnds batches with various charges and seating depths, and take those 50-100rnds to gravel pit and shoot paper and take notes.

I certainly understand the experimentation/fun aspect, but my question was more geared towards safety. If I adjust the COL, do I need to adjust powder charge in order to keep the ammo SAFE?

joneb · February 19, 2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

If I adjust the COL, do I need to adjust powder charge in order to keep the ammo SAFE?

Only if you are decreasing the space between the powder and the base of the bullet, thus shortening the C.O.A.L. from your load data. If you are seating the bullet further out the pressure will decrease.

Sevens · February 19, 2008, 11:09 PM

Dave, when you put together a load for the first time, you shouldn't be approaching a max. A max is one that you build toward. If you were at or near max, then seating a bullet deeper and reducing the case volume can get dangerous.

In this case, you aren't anywhere near a max load. So seating a bullet a little bit deeper isn't going to be unsafe when speaking about chamber pressures. You are in fine shape and safe territory. (for this bullet and powder in .45, 5.5 grains is a max load according to Winchester)

TexasSeaRay · February 20, 2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

If I adjust the COL, do I need to adjust powder charge in order to keep the ammo SAFE?

No worries, Dave.

This is a very stable, very safe, very reliable load configuration for virtually any 45 ACP gun that has ever been built with the exception of a Llama.

Llama's are to quality what Micheal Jackson is to testosterone.

Jeff

cheezhed · February 20, 2008, 02:36 AM

I use 5.1 grains of 231 in my .45 and so far no probs. been using this load for quite a while. the length is 1.25 and i use a caliper to measure the round. be sure that no bullet lube ends up on your seating punch or your seating depth may change. just check your length every once in a while i have never had a need for a mike to check for length.

TexasSeaRay · February 20, 2008, 04:01 AM

Dave,

Here is a shot of how your 45's should look/be seated. These are some 200 SWC like yours that I load all the time. The OAL is 1.25, but don't get all hung up on that. If they're shorter, no problem. It's when they get longer that you can have more feed/feed-jam problems.

You can see in the picture about where you need to seat the bullets. Trust me--it feels funny the first few times because you think you're seating the bullet in WAY too deep. But it's the only way it'll work and feed correctly.

Jeff

Sevens · February 20, 2008, 08:28 AM

Great picture--I had hoped someone would come up with a good image to show what isn't as easy to explain.
The round laying at the feet of the three vertical rounds is hard to see--but look at any of the three standing up or the one actually inside the caliper and THAT is what you want your rounds to look like. Those feed and will perform.

Now, with that load, your pistol may not want to cycle, depending on the spring that it's got and what it's expecting in recoil. So you should build a few rounds with your 4.4gr charge, then build a few with a 4.6gr charge and a a few with a 4.8gr charge. Take them all to the range and start with the lighter ones, and examine the cases for signs of pressure as you go.

That's how you do it!

TexasSeaRay · February 21, 2008, 12:41 AM

Thanks.

I was wanting to show Dave how the 200 SWC looked properly seated in the big 45 case. For what it's worth, the 185 SWC looks much the same.

If you want to see something really disconcerting, I'll snap a picture of the 185 SWC "button-nosed" bullets Mike at Mastercastbullets.com sent me to try out. He's trying to decide whether or not to make these a permanent addition to his offerings.

There's a fellow shooter down in Houston who shot some ungodly groups with them at 75' on a rest. Unfortunately, I saw the pictures of that group that Mike e-mailed to me AFTER I had loaded up these button-nose bullets and gone to the range.

I had miserable luck with them. There's definitely a trick to seating and crimping them and having a polished ramp helps on the feeding. Neither the Longslide or the Gold Cup much enjoyed them. My old military-issue Series 70 Gov't will eat anything and spit it out just fine, but it's not much on tight groups past 35 or so feet out.

Mike e-mailed me some info and recommendations on loading that bullet, so I'm gonna give it another go-round this upcoming week.

I'll post a picture of it when I get it loaded, hopefully the way it's supposed to be loaded. Just goes to show that the more you learn, the more you discover just how much you don't know.

Jeff

February 19, 2008, 10:03 PM	#1
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Hmmmm how would I make this load work? I found this load on the hodgdon data site. I'm going to be loading some .45 ACP LSWC rounds. Here's my two concerns. The bullets I'm ordering are .452, not .451. Seconly, isn't their COL a little shorter than what most 1911s like? I've heard mainly 1.250 is good. Any thoughts? 200 GR. CAST LSWC Powder - 231 Dia - .451" COL - 1.225" Charge - 4.4 Vel - 771

February 19, 2008, 10:13 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Seat the SWC so there's a tiny band of lead protruding from the case mouth before the bullet begins it's taper. This band of lead is what will contact the feed ramp as it shucks in to the chamber. At this point, don't worry about the bullet diameter. It'll be safe. You start by making sure your rounds are safe-- then you make sure they function and feed in your pistol. When those areas are covered, then you start looking for accuracy. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 19, 2008, 10:26 PM	#5
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	200 grain LSWCs that follow the Hensley & Gibbs #68 pattern, and loaded to 1.250" COL, will run slick through any properly set-up 1911 that is fed from good magazines. Run a tight taper crimp to insure easy entry to the chamber and prevent bullet set-back upon colliding with the frame ramp. For small game/farm pests I load said bullet over 4.0 grains of W231 for 626 fps, from a 5" GI-pattern gun. That gun has about a 16 pound spring and feeds and ejects them fine. The load you listed should have plenty of oomph to cycle the gun provided that it isn't set up with heavy springs. Check your COL with micrometers. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

February 19, 2008, 11:09 PM	#10
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Dave, when you put together a load for the first time, you shouldn't be approaching a max. A max is one that you build toward. If you were at or near max, then seating a bullet deeper and reducing the case volume can get dangerous. In this case, you aren't anywhere near a max load. So seating a bullet a little bit deeper isn't going to be unsafe when speaking about chamber pressures. You are in fine shape and safe territory. (for this bullet and powder in .45, 5.5 grains is a max load according to Winchester) __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 20, 2008, 04:01 AM	#13
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	Dave, Here is a shot of how your 45's should look/be seated. These are some 200 SWC like yours that I load all the time. The OAL is 1.25, but don't get all hung up on that. If they're shorter, no problem. It's when they get longer that you can have more feed/feed-jam problems. You can see in the picture about where you need to seat the bullets. Trust me--it feels funny the first few times because you think you're seating the bullet in WAY too deep. But it's the only way it'll work and feed correctly. Jeff __________________ If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.

February 19, 2008, 10:20 PM	#3
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	.452" is normal for .45acp Lead bullets. I would seat them out as far as your barrel chamber allows, for lead I will find the max C.O.A.L. for my chamber and add a few 1/1000's and then check if a loaded round in full battery will manually extract with ease. 1.250" sounds about right, for me I seat to 1.248 with LSWC.

February 19, 2008, 10:24 PM	#4
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	The question then becomes - do I need to adjust the powder charge when I adjust the COL?

February 19, 2008, 10:30 PM	#6
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	The gun in question is a new Para Ordnance 1911, 5" barrel. I have no idea what tension the spring is. Are you saying I need a micrometer instead of calipers? This reloading stuff gets confusing There are the bullets in question: http://www.missouribullet.com/shop/d...=56&category=5

February 20, 2008, 02:36 AM	#12
cheezhed Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2007 Posts: 302	I use 5.1 grains of 231 in my .45 and so far no probs. been using this load for quite a while. the length is 1.25 and i use a caliper to measure the round. be sure that no bullet lube ends up on your seating punch or your seating depth may change. just check your length every once in a while i have never had a need for a mike to check for length.

February 20, 2008, 08:28 AM	#14
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Great picture--I had hoped someone would come up with a good image to show what isn't as easy to explain. The round laying at the feet of the three vertical rounds is hard to see--but look at any of the three standing up or the one actually inside the caliper and THAT is what you want your rounds to look like. Those feed and will perform. Now, with that load, your pistol may not want to cycle, depending on the spring that it's got and what it's expecting in recoil. So you should build a few rounds with your 4.4gr charge, then build a few with a 4.6gr charge and a a few with a 4.8gr charge. Take them all to the range and start with the lighter ones, and examine the cases for signs of pressure as you go. That's how you do it! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 21, 2008, 12:41 AM	#15
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	Thanks. I was wanting to show Dave how the 200 SWC looked properly seated in the big 45 case. For what it's worth, the 185 SWC looks much the same. If you want to see something really disconcerting, I'll snap a picture of the 185 SWC "button-nosed" bullets Mike at Mastercastbullets.com sent me to try out. He's trying to decide whether or not to make these a permanent addition to his offerings. There's a fellow shooter down in Houston who shot some ungodly groups with them at 75' on a rest. Unfortunately, I saw the pictures of that group that Mike e-mailed to me AFTER I had loaded up these button-nose bullets and gone to the range. I had miserable luck with them. There's definitely a trick to seating and crimping them and having a polished ramp helps on the feeding. Neither the Longslide or the Gold Cup much enjoyed them. My old military-issue Series 70 Gov't will eat anything and spit it out just fine, but it's not much on tight groups past 35 or so feet out. Mike e-mailed me some info and recommendations on loading that bullet, so I'm gonna give it another go-round this upcoming week. I'll post a picture of it when I get it loaded, hopefully the way it's supposed to be loaded. Just goes to show that the more you learn, the more you discover just how much you don't know. Jeff __________________ If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.