Looking for good arguments for a pro-gun society... difficult

Ordinary_guy · February 6, 2018, 11:22 AM

Hi there!
Not a troll... and not a flame bait.
So now when we settled that, let me ask you if you can find some GOOD sources of research with the indications that a pro-gun society brings about a safer and just society. I am thinking in terms of long term, both in the mindset of giving the citizen the leverage against the state, and also generally as self-defence against the "bad guys".
Why am I looking for this? Well, since I don't live in the US, and have an interest in these matters, I have noticed that it's VERY easy to find solid arguments AGAINST easy access to guns, but not so much against gun control. When I google stuff, the anti gun attitudes seems to be all over the place.

To be specific I would love to see some info regarding an international outlook, not just US-specific and your famous second amendment, because that is not relevant for most citizens around the world.

Bring it on, and thanks in advance. Please add sources in your answers so I can research it myself afterwards. And if you have any questions to me as well I will do my best to answer.

/Just an ordinary guy

BarryLee · February 6, 2018, 11:29 AM

You might try this site:

https://crimeresearch.org/

Don P · February 6, 2018, 11:51 AM

Research the date April 19, 1775 and you will see why society needs to be armed, as you stated leverage against the state. Its a perfect example

Bartholomew Roberts · February 6, 2018, 12:34 PM

https://thefiringline.com/library/

Particularly, Guncite.

johnwilliamson062 · February 6, 2018, 01:25 PM

It is nearly impossible to create a good experiment, so data is bad for both sides. Even if you took a city, cut it in half with even demographics, and made one a gun free zone and the other an easy gun zone, there would still be major issues in the experiment such as people moving.
The best available is where laws change, but there are problems with that data also. I haven't seen much evidence that violent crimes or murder rates drop in any such places. Even with decades long history of gun control these locations also tend to continue to be relatively high crime areas.

If you have ever lived in a country totally controlled by organized crime you will understand why access to arms is an important check on government power. You may notice many of the locals in the US with strict gun control are also locals famous for corruption and strong organized crime. Organized crime ALWAYS has a way to get all the weapons they want. They can buy machine shops and manufacture them if need be. They love to know no one else has them.

When you read those anti-gun statistics pay attention to the exact wording. One common thing I have noticed is there is almost a sentence to the effect of 'Since X law went into effect on Y date, GUN VIOLENCE has dropped Z percent'
This statistic is totally worthless in my mind. Who cares if gun violence falls but people are still getting killed with other methods?
Murder isn't a new problem. It has been around a lot longer than firearms and governments have always been the greatest offenders.

Ordinary_guy · February 6, 2018, 01:56 PM

"One common thing I have noticed is there is almost a sentence to the effect of 'Since X law went into effect on Y date, GUN VIOLENCE has dropped Z percent'"

Yes, I have noticed this very misleading stat as well. This is one of the reasons that I want input from more people, and since I have absolutely no difficulty whatsoever to find anti-gun arguments, I decided to look for the pro side.
I want to be able to make up my own mind. I know what I would like personally, but it's nice to have a good background and research.

manta49 · February 6, 2018, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Research the date April 19, 1775 and you will see why society needs to be armed, as you stated leverage against the state. Its a perfect example.

He is probably looking more up to date relevant reasons. Not ancient history that happened hundreds of years ago, that has no relevance in modern day America.

K_Mac · February 6, 2018, 02:32 PM

Welcome to the forum. A first post that starts with, "I'm not a troll." is sure to get some attention.

Your statement that it is easy to find, "solid arguments" against guns while finding little for is interesting. I think that the ease of finding evidence is often determined by one's beliefs and prejudice. That is certainly the case in many cultures around the world when it comes to guns.

For most Americans our solid argument starts with revolution and the governing document that was written as a result. We understood from the beginning that living as free men required citizens to be able to defend ourselves and our liberty from threats within and without. The Second Amendment, and the Bill of Rights in general, codified those individual rights.

Access to guns has been blamed for violence for many reasons. Governments, and those who believe who believe that it is government's responsibility to provide for our every need is a major reason. There are those who believe guns are evil by nature. There are those who blame guns for violence, rather than addressing the underlying social, racial, and economic issues.

Ordinary_guy you want to dismiss that the right and necessity of free people to keep and bear arms as an American argument for access to guns. It is not. Yes, there are many around the world and here at home who believe the government knows best how to provide for and protect its people. I, and many other others, believe the freedom to buy, keep and bear arms is essential to liberty. That is the only solid argument needed in my view.

You have to look no further than Google to find much support for access to guns if that is what you want.

T. O'Heir · February 6, 2018, 03:02 PM

"...GUN VIOLENCE..." One rule is to not use media hack invented terms about things that do not exist. There's no such thing as 'gun violence'. Firearms are inanimate objects that are incapable of doing anything without human action.
A "just society" is not going to happen solely due to the private ownership of firearms.
"...not just US-specific and your..." Where you are matters.
"...an international outlook..." Pretty much only the U.S. has the Constitutional guarantee right to own firearms. And that depends on what State one lives in. Plus since 1968, there has been defacto, Federally mandated, firearms registration ordered by the unelected civil servants being allowed to make law by regulation.
"...When I Google stuff..." A net search depends on what you search. And to a certain degree where. As in which search engine. Bottom line is searching for the correct thing.
Read this.
https://guncontroltruth.wordpress.co...nesaw-georgia/

FITASC · February 6, 2018, 03:12 PM

The Czech are/just did vote on making firearm ownership in their country a right as modeled after us. Why? Because they fear another Russian invasion; not just ownership, but also concealed carry.

Look at Australia where after massive gun control went into affect, crime has gone up.

Look at England where strict gun control led to an increase of attacks with knives that they are going after them

Gun control is not about guns; it is about control and the last thing any despotic or tyrannical government wants is an armed populace that could depose them.

HiBC · February 6, 2018, 03:14 PM

Here is a book written by a woman who ,at one time,was anti-gun.
I've heard it said "Betrayal is the antidote for naivete" Tragic life experience taught this Woman a different way of looking at things: Paxton Quigley "Armed and Female"

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...med+and+female

Another gentleman ,IIRC,began with an anti-gun bias.He was working for Bill Clinton doing research to justify anti-gun legislation.This is a rare individual of integrity. Rather than simply gather a case for a pre-drawn conclusion,he actually looked at what his research told him and grew.

John Lott "More Guns,Less Crime"

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...l_5qzla3pr63_b

Once you finish those,I might suggest the US Constitution,and "The Federalist Papers" Hillsdale College, on the Federalist Papers.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%...I80Czgk9pY1iwM

Manta....Its a very small mind and a colossal ego that considers the lessons and wisdom of History irrelevant.
I have heard the gesture of "Flipping the bird" goes back to the Irish longbowmen.As I heard it,that particular finger was essential to drawing the bow.Supposedly it was a custom among the British to cut that finger off of a pesky Irish LongBowman.
The "salute" said "I can still draw my bow" I may not have that quite right,but I like the spirit of it.
You are somewhere in the British Isles. I mean no insult,but here in the USA,we have some history with England and oppression.
The Wisdom and Experience of the Patriots who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution ...might be irrelevant to you,but they are not to me.IMO,among the most significant concepts included in the Constitution: Limited government and Individual Liberty.Of course,the Constitution contains more,but few other governments are built on the foundation that the Individual has unalienable Rights,and the government is prohibited from intrusion on those rights...with the exceptions granted by the consent of the governed.Of course,that will inspire great debate.And of course,there HAS been an erosion of the Constitutional principles as they are applied in USA.
IMO,that in no way makes the Constitution or its principles irrelevant.As we become entropic,the Constitution is as relevant as ever. Like the North Star...It will serve my Grandchildren as a way to navigate a restoration of USA if we can "Preserve,uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

I'm looking forward to seeing "The Darkest Hour" Winston Churchill is not irrelevant. Is William Wallace irrelevant?

“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

― George Orwell

Many folks take Liberty for granted,like the water in the faucet. You don't miss it till the well runs dry. (That's in a Jerry Jeff Walker song)

manta49 · February 6, 2018, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Look at England where strict gun control led to an increase of attacks with knives that they are going after them

What evidence do you have that strict gun control in the UK led to increased knife crime. ? The fact that no one has carried firearms in England Scotland and Wales for self defence for probably near 100 years, so i don't see how that would effect modern day knife in the UK. Crime is crime does it matter if its knife crime or gun crime. Lets deal in facts there are around 50 firearms related murders in the UK each compared with around 8,000 in America, lets not point to other countries like every things OK in America, and there are no issues.

manta49 · February 6, 2018, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Manta....Its a very small mind and a colossal ego that considers the lessons and wisdom of History irrelevant.
I have heard the gesture of "Flipping the bird" goes back to the Irish longbowmen.As I heard it,that particular finger was essential to drawing the bow.Supposedly it was a custom among the British to cut that finger off of a pesky Irish LongBowman.
The "salute" said "I can still draw my bow" I may not have that quite right,but I like the spirit of it.
You are somewhere in the British Isles. I mean no insult,but here in the USA,we have some history with England and oppression.
The Wisdom and Experience of the Patriots who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution ...might be irrelevant to you,but they are not to me.

True it probably is more relevant in America, the American revaluation was not even taught in school here in History lessons. You certainly do need to learn from history, as you say it was the English oppressors not a modern day American democracy. PS I think it was the French and English not the Irish.

Quote:

This origin legend states that archers who were captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off so that they could no longer operate their longbows, and that the V sign was used by uncaptured and victorious archers in a display of defiance against the enemy.

raimius · February 6, 2018, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Crime is crime does it matter if its knife crime or gun crime.

This is a good way to figure out "net benefit" to society. If you ban many/most/all guns, but your violent crime rate is still high, you really just altered the method of action, not the result. This is the main point about the UK ban, that many people try to point out. The UK still has a lot of violent crime. Sure, it has less shootings, but stabbings make up a large part of the stats now. So, what did they really accomplish? (***The US FBI and British crime statistics for violent crime are defined, collected, and measured differently. Be VERY wary when comparing them.***)

Ordinary Guy,
At the theoretical level, it starts with the right to self defense. If your average person should have the right to self defense, it follows that they should have an effective means to exercise that right. At least in the US, those who defend themselves with firearms are less likely to be injured (ref: research by Gary Kleck). In fact, firearms were shown to be the method of defense with the greatest percentage of success (when defined as stopping an attack and not being injured).
--Thus, allowing the population to defend themselves with firearms provides them the effective right to self defense. (Sure, you can defend yourself with a sword or even a pen, but your odds of success are lower...and MUCH lower.)

In another philosophical area, one must look at relations between the people and the government. In the US, our Founding Fathers wanted the people to have the means to resist tyranny (in their experience, imposed by distant government). By allowing citizens to possess "swords and every terrible implement of the soldier" (Tench Coxe), they provided a means to resist tyranny. This is also termed as denying the state a "monopoly of power." Essentially, this makes it extremely unlikely for governments to enact military rule or march people off to death camps without igniting a full-scale war against their own people. The more modern take on this is to ask if the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto would have been better off with guns and ammo.

As for crime rates and the effects of firearms proliferation, I'll argue that the numbers in circulation are less important than what kinds of people own them. If the averages tilt toward non-criminal owners, things will be good. They would only hurt others with firearms by accident or if attacked (and organizations like the NRA are actually very useful in education and accident reduction). If the "average" gun owner trends toward criminals, you will have serious problems. The gun is a tool. The user determines the moral considerations. People like John Lott have attempted to analyze statistics of gun ownership and legal carry on crime rates. Unfortunately, there are MANY factors in gun ownership, carry rates, and crime statistics. It is extremely difficult to determine which factor lead to specific changes or percentages of changes. Most American studies tend to show either a lowering of violent crime rates or no change when laws are changed to make it easier for citizens to carry guns in public. Whether the legal change or change in numbers of people carrying is responsible for any change in crime rates is VERY difficult to determine. We can find correlations, but assigning cause is tough.

Another source of compiled data to look through: https://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Ordinary_guy · February 7, 2018, 12:38 PM

Thanks for your input. Will look into it. Found something interesting about the survival rate regarding if you get shot or stabbed. According to this study from Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvaniait's the survival rate is the same:

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/ne...imilar-for-gun

The thoughts I had was that it seems to be that countries with stricter gun control still have knife stabbings instead for example. Many gun-control studies states that gunrelated violence go down with stricter control. No sh..t Sherlock! But there are stabbings instead... Have to look into some relevant studies in that area as well.

The reason that I put some energy into this is that I feel that the Second Amendment that you have in the US is more or less unique (what I know at least) and that IF guns can be seen as a HELP in society instead of people being fearful of them, it could help a lot. In Europe where I live the attitudes are absolutely hilarious. Many preconceptions about guns being the root of all evil. People have used weapons for self defence since dawn of humanity. It's a tool like everything else. I could agree on that nuclear weapons are VERY difficult to use except as a deterrent, but otherwise all weapons are only tools, to be used by both good and bad guys.

If you have any other thoughts regarding these issues, please feel free to add to the thread.

/OG

Ordinary_guy · February 7, 2018, 12:45 PM

"...believe the freedom to buy, keep and bear arms is essential to liberty. That is the only solid argument needed in my view."

I can agree to that, but with the reservation that liberty shouldn't be at the expense of other peoples right or health. For example, if some guy finds a way to miniaturise an atomic bomb, I don't feel that it's a persons "right" to have it or use it. It's too dangerous to the people around him/her. So personally I don't believe in TOTAL freedom when it comes to VERY dangerous stuff. But in principle, yes.

fredvon4 · February 7, 2018, 02:19 PM

Manta 49

Take those stats you posted

"Lets deal in facts there are around 50 firearms related murders in the UK each compared with around 8,000 in America, lets not point to other countries like every things OK in America, and there are no issues."

and apply some simple population math, include illegal immigrants and a shallow understanding of Gangs and derive some percent per 100,000 citizens

then try hard to find the very nebulous data on How Many Armed Citizens save their own or someone else life

well crap I do not feel like the next three paragraphs

I feel confident stating that I intuitively know a armed population is safer INDIVIDUALLY despite the added very low accidental and suicide death rates per capita

Murder rates must be evaluated by all means of the death, not just guns

I note that in ALL areas where guns are strictly controlled....none got violent crime to significantly decrease

HiBC · February 7, 2018, 02:43 PM

A fairly recent example of the armed citizen,and the very biased,agenda driven media,and subsequent public perception:

Thornton,Colorado,a suburb of Denver

Some speculation required...but a gunman entered a Walmart and began shooting (apparently) random customers . He killed three,then stopped,turned and left.
The media report? "Armed citizens,seen in surveillance video DELAYED the police investigation for hours.."
Media message ? The armed citizens were a problem. Statistics? Three killed by a gunman.
My interpretation? A nut job * walked into a Walmart to run up a body count,a wolf among sheep.No telling how many he would have killed before police could respond .As he killed the third,he notices armed citizens drawing lawfully held concealed weapons. OOPS! Now he is NOT a wolf among sheep.
He stops killing and walks away. Response time,seconds.Results:Killing stopped. Threat over...Armed citizens ,responsibly,did not fire a shot.

https://patch.com/colorado/denver/wa...-woman-wounded

K_Mac · February 7, 2018, 03:03 PM

Ordinary_guy your atomic bomb reference is interesting. The same thought process is often used to justify limiting the weapons acceptable for ownership here. Removable "high capacity" magazines, semi-automatic "assault" weapons, handguns and firearms in general have all been argued to be too dangerous for the greater good.

I am not advocating for weapons of mass destruction . They represent a global threat to the greater good and should be treated as such.

Liberty is a tricky thing. By its nature it is messy and uncomfortable. At times even dangerous. I'm good with that.

**Spats McGee** · February 7, 2018, 03:34 PM

Welcome to TFL, Ordinary guy! I think you've come to the right place.

If you want statistics, we have a small thread that will give you some good, reliable numbers here: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=517074

As far as arguments go . . . . I'll agree that anti-gun rhetoric seems to be everywhere. Much of it, however, is pretty easily defeated if one just thinks logically for a minute. For example, the anti-gunners like to claim that "more guns equals more crime," but the statistics don't bear that out. One of our (pro-gun) favorite examples is Chicago. Illinois (abbreviated IL) has notoriously strict gun laws, and Chicago should be an anti-gunner's dream city, filled with peace love and happiness. However, the FBI's uniform crime statistics do not bear this out. It's been a while since I looked at those numbers, but (if memory serves) Chicago has one of the highest violent crime rates in the country. By comparison, I think Dallas or Houston have looser crime laws and lower crime rates. We have to be careful of causation, so we cannot safely say "more guns led to lower crime rates," but we can safely say that "stricter gun laws did not lead to lower crime rates."

Further, and on a more personal note, I've frequently posted that I don't really give a damn about the numbers. Governments care about the number of people who get killed. I'm far more concerned with who those people are. My family, for example. If some law would magically cut the number of deaths by firearms by half, but leave my family defenseless, I'd still oppose it. And the reality of the situation is that in the event of a violent attack, the odds of a police officer just happening to be available to stop the attack are virtually nil. It's far and away more likely that I'll be forced to defend myself or my family.

I'd also urge you to look at South America. It's my understanding that most of those countries have extremely strict gun control, yet they remain some of the most violent places on earth. The bad guys will get guns, whether or not anti-gun legislation is enacted. If guns are outlawed, the bad guys will buy them illegally. If they can't buy one, they'll steal it. If they can neither steal nor buy one, they'll figure out how to make one. Laws only affect those who are inclined to obey them.

Finally, I'll direct you to one of my favorite blog posts on the issue. One of the key points made is that a world without guns isn't the same as a world without violence. http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/01/04/a-world-without-guns/

Again, welcome to TFL!

manta49 · February 7, 2018, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Manta 49

Take those stats you posted

"Lets deal in facts there are around 50 firearms related murders in the UK each compared with around 8,000 in America, lets not point to other countries like every things OK in America, and there are no issues."

and apply some simple population math, include illegal immigrants and a shallow understanding of Gangs and derive some percent per 100,000 citizens

then try hard to find the very nebulous data on How Many Armed Citizens save their own or someone else life

well crap I do not feel like the next three paragraphs

How many gangs etc are involved is irrelevant, i was just pointing out some facts after the UK was erroneously used as a pro gun argument. As you pointed out there are plenty of pro gun arguments already, agree with them or not.

Quote:

Chicago should be an anti-gunner's dream city, filled with peace love and happiness. However, the FBI's uniform crime statistics do not bear this out. It's been a while since I looked at those numbers, but (if memory serves) Chicago has one of the highest violent crime rates in the country. By comparison, I think Dallas or Houston have looser crime laws and lower crime rates. We have to be careful of causation, so we cannot safely say "more guns led to lower crime rates," but we can safely say that "stricter gun laws did not lead to lower crime rates."

Do you really think all the problems in Chicago are just down to firearms policies, i would think there are a lot of issues in Chicago gangs unemployment drugs etc. While i am pro gun, like most things i like to look at both sides of the debate and make my mind up regarding pro and anti gun arguments.

Quote:

If guns are outlawed, the bad guys will buy them illegally. If they can't buy one, they'll steal it. If they can neither steal nor buy one, they'll figure out how to make one. Laws only affect those who are inclined to obey them

That's not a good argument for pro gun, follow that logic and there is no point in having any laws as some people will ignore and brake them. Some people should not have firearms legally violent criminals etc. The fact that they can obtain them illegally is not a good reason to have no restrictions on them being able to walk into a shop and legally buy a firearm. Just like saying there is no point in having drink laws, because as we all know some will drink and drive anyway.

FITASC · February 7, 2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Look at England where strict gun control led to an increase of attacks with knives that they are going after them
What evidence do you have that strict gun control in the UK led to increased knife crime. ? The fact that no one has carried firearms in England Scotland and Wales for self defence for probably near 100 years, so i don't see how that would effect modern day knife in the UK. Crime is crime does it matter if its knife crime or gun crime. Lets deal in facts there are around 50 firearms related murders in the UK each compared with around 8,000 in America, lets not point to other countries like every things OK in America, and there are no issues.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattve...rging-n2026497

Quote:

Gun ownership is an alien concept with our British cousins across the Atlantic, but that doesn’t mean that violent crime has been reduced. In fact, with no guns readily available, though there are gun crimes in the UK, knives seem to be the weapon of choice. This isn't surprising. The rise in knife attacks has been in the UK press since 2008–and they’ve increased by 13 percent since last year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-falling.html

Quote:

More than 350 people are the victim of knife assaults every day in England and Wales, the latest crime figures have revealed.

https://researchbriefings.parliament...ummary/SN04304

Quote:

Homicide

There were 213 homicides using a sharp instrument in 2015/16, accounting for 37% of all homicides. This was an increase from 186 cases in 2014/15 (36% of all homicides).
Knife crime by police force area

London recorded the highest rate of 114 offences involving a knife per 100,000 population[1] in 2015/16. This was a decrease of 41 offences from 156 per 100,000 people in 2010/11. Surrey had the lowest rate of 6 offences per 100,000 individuals.

And then there are the acid attacks:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40559973

Quote:

Gang members know there are advantages in using acid to hurt someone rather than a knife because "the charges are more serious if you are caught with a knife and the tariff for prison sentences are much higher".
It is legal to purchase strong acid but there have been growing calls for regulations to be tightened in the wake of recent incidents.

Just like guns and knives - let's regulate the tool instead of prosecuting the attacker, because it might offend some special group.

If those aren't enough, Google will find you more.....

HiBC · February 7, 2018, 03:53 PM

Since we have talked about guns and knives,etc.

Giving credibility to the Tueller concept...That a bad guy with a knife might stick me before I can respond with my handgun, And assuming he got me ;If I am armed,I can at least hope I will fall on a pile of my own hot brass.

https://youtu.be/93PBNHXXWWs

manta49 · February 7, 2018, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Gun ownership is an alien concept with our British cousins across the Atlantic, but that doesn’t mean that violent crime has been reduced. In fact, with no guns readily available, though there are gun crimes in the UK, knives seem to be the weapon of choice. This isn't surprising. The rise in knife attacks has been in the UK press since 2008–and they’ve increased by 13 percent since last year

There are plenty of firearms in the UK, its a myth that there is not. There are plenty in this small part of the UK for example, you have to take into account the firearms culture is different here than in America, for example 98% of firearms are owned by males.
PS I i am not getting into a stats fight as we all know people pick the stats to back their side, and plenty can be found to contradict their stats lifes to short.

Quote:

We have analysed detailed information provided on each of the 59,585 people living in Northern Ireland who currently hold firearms licences.
We found that almost 60,000 members of the public own over 146,000 firearms with the remaining 7,018 legally-held guns belonging to serving police and prison officers.A total of 2,924 licenses have 'Personal Protection Weapon' among the conditions of use. These holders include ex-PSNI, civilians and prison officers.

Lohman446 · February 7, 2018, 04:11 PM

The logical argument I hold for easy access to firearms is it allows the "little old lady" to have a near equal ability to defend herself as the body builder. A firearm is the ultimate statement in equality because it overcomes most natural physical advantages an attacker may have due to gender, age, or general health.

Besides the right to effective self defense is a basic human right and is an individual right not to be turned over to to the state. The state may augment that right but it must not supersede it.

February 6, 2018, 11:22 AM	#1
Ordinary_guy Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2018 Posts: 7	Looking for good arguments for a pro-gun society... difficult Hi there! Not a troll... and not a flame bait. So now when we settled that, let me ask you if you can find some GOOD sources of research with the indications that a pro-gun society brings about a safer and just society. I am thinking in terms of long term, both in the mindset of giving the citizen the leverage against the state, and also generally as self-defence against the "bad guys". Why am I looking for this? Well, since I don't live in the US, and have an interest in these matters, I have noticed that it's VERY easy to find solid arguments AGAINST easy access to guns, but not so much against gun control. When I google stuff, the anti gun attitudes seems to be all over the place. To be specific I would love to see some info regarding an international outlook, not just US-specific and your famous second amendment, because that is not relevant for most citizens around the world. Bring it on, and thanks in advance. Please add sources in your answers so I can research it myself afterwards. And if you have any questions to me as well I will do my best to answer. /Just an ordinary guy

February 6, 2018, 11:29 AM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	You might try this site: https://crimeresearch.org/ __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

February 6, 2018, 11:51 AM	#3
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Research the date April 19, 1775 and you will see why society needs to be armed, as you stated leverage against the state. Its a perfect example __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

February 6, 2018, 02:32 PM	#8
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	Welcome to the forum. A first post that starts with, "I'm not a troll." is sure to get some attention. Your statement that it is easy to find, "solid arguments" against guns while finding little for is interesting. I think that the ease of finding evidence is often determined by one's beliefs and prejudice. That is certainly the case in many cultures around the world when it comes to guns. For most Americans our solid argument starts with revolution and the governing document that was written as a result. We understood from the beginning that living as free men required citizens to be able to defend ourselves and our liberty from threats within and without. The Second Amendment, and the Bill of Rights in general, codified those individual rights. Access to guns has been blamed for violence for many reasons. Governments, and those who believe who believe that it is government's responsibility to provide for our every need is a major reason. There are those who believe guns are evil by nature. There are those who blame guns for violence, rather than addressing the underlying social, racial, and economic issues. Ordinary_guy you want to dismiss that the right and necessity of free people to keep and bear arms as an American argument for access to guns. It is not. Yes, there are many around the world and here at home who believe the government knows best how to provide for and protect its people. I, and many other others, believe the freedom to buy, keep and bear arms is essential to liberty. That is the only solid argument needed in my view. You have to look no further than Google to find much support for access to guns if that is what you want. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin Last edited by K_Mac; February 6, 2018 at 02:37 PM.

February 6, 2018, 03:02 PM	#9
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...GUN VIOLENCE..." One rule is to not use media hack invented terms about things that do not exist. There's no such thing as 'gun violence'. Firearms are inanimate objects that are incapable of doing anything without human action. A "just society" is not going to happen solely due to the private ownership of firearms. "...not just US-specific and your..." Where you are matters. "...an international outlook..." Pretty much only the U.S. has the Constitutional guarantee right to own firearms. And that depends on what State one lives in. Plus since 1968, there has been defacto, Federally mandated, firearms registration ordered by the unelected civil servants being allowed to make law by regulation. "...When I Google stuff..." A net search depends on what you search. And to a certain degree where. As in which search engine. Bottom line is searching for the correct thing. Read this. https://guncontroltruth.wordpress.co...nesaw-georgia/ __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 6, 2018, 12:34 PM	#4
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	https://thefiringline.com/library/ Particularly, Guncite.

February 6, 2018, 01:25 PM	#5
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	It is nearly impossible to create a good experiment, so data is bad for both sides. Even if you took a city, cut it in half with even demographics, and made one a gun free zone and the other an easy gun zone, there would still be major issues in the experiment such as people moving. The best available is where laws change, but there are problems with that data also. I haven't seen much evidence that violent crimes or murder rates drop in any such places. Even with decades long history of gun control these locations also tend to continue to be relatively high crime areas. If you have ever lived in a country totally controlled by organized crime you will understand why access to arms is an important check on government power. You may notice many of the locals in the US with strict gun control are also locals famous for corruption and strong organized crime. Organized crime ALWAYS has a way to get all the weapons they want. They can buy machine shops and manufacture them if need be. They love to know no one else has them. When you read those anti-gun statistics pay attention to the exact wording. One common thing I have noticed is there is almost a sentence to the effect of 'Since X law went into effect on Y date, GUN VIOLENCE has dropped Z percent' This statistic is totally worthless in my mind. Who cares if gun violence falls but people are still getting killed with other methods? Murder isn't a new problem. It has been around a lot longer than firearms and governments have always been the greatest offenders.

February 6, 2018, 01:56 PM	#6
Ordinary_guy Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2018 Posts: 7	"One common thing I have noticed is there is almost a sentence to the effect of 'Since X law went into effect on Y date, GUN VIOLENCE has dropped Z percent'" Yes, I have noticed this very misleading stat as well. This is one of the reasons that I want input from more people, and since I have absolutely no difficulty whatsoever to find anti-gun arguments, I decided to look for the pro side. I want to be able to make up my own mind. I know what I would like personally, but it's nice to have a good background and research.

February 6, 2018, 03:12 PM	#10
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	The Czech are/just did vote on making firearm ownership in their country a right as modeled after us. Why? Because they fear another Russian invasion; not just ownership, but also concealed carry. Look at Australia where after massive gun control went into affect, crime has gone up. Look at England where strict gun control led to an increase of attacks with knives that they are going after them Gun control is not about guns; it is about control and the last thing any despotic or tyrannical government wants is an armed populace that could depose them. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

February 6, 2018, 03:14 PM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Here is a book written by a woman who ,at one time,was anti-gun. I've heard it said "Betrayal is the antidote for naivete" Tragic life experience taught this Woman a different way of looking at things: Paxton Quigley "Armed and Female" https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...med+and+female Another gentleman ,IIRC,began with an anti-gun bias.He was working for Bill Clinton doing research to justify anti-gun legislation.This is a rare individual of integrity. Rather than simply gather a case for a pre-drawn conclusion,he actually looked at what his research told him and grew. John Lott "More Guns,Less Crime" https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...l_5qzla3pr63_b Once you finish those,I might suggest the US Constitution,and "The Federalist Papers" Hillsdale College, on the Federalist Papers. https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%...I80Czgk9pY1iwM Manta....Its a very small mind and a colossal ego that considers the lessons and wisdom of History irrelevant. I have heard the gesture of "Flipping the bird" goes back to the Irish longbowmen.As I heard it,that particular finger was essential to drawing the bow.Supposedly it was a custom among the British to cut that finger off of a pesky Irish LongBowman. The "salute" said "I can still draw my bow" I may not have that quite right,but I like the spirit of it. You are somewhere in the British Isles. I mean no insult,but here in the USA,we have some history with England and oppression. The Wisdom and Experience of the Patriots who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution ...might be irrelevant to you,but they are not to me.IMO,among the most significant concepts included in the Constitution: Limited government and Individual Liberty.Of course,the Constitution contains more,but few other governments are built on the foundation that the Individual has unalienable Rights,and the government is prohibited from intrusion on those rights...with the exceptions granted by the consent of the governed.Of course,that will inspire great debate.And of course,there HAS been an erosion of the Constitutional principles as they are applied in USA. IMO,that in no way makes the Constitution or its principles irrelevant.As we become entropic,the Constitution is as relevant as ever. Like the North Star...It will serve my Grandchildren as a way to navigate a restoration of USA if we can "Preserve,uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic" I'm looking forward to seeing "The Darkest Hour" Winston Churchill is not irrelevant. Is William Wallace irrelevant? “That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” ― George Orwell Many folks take Liberty for granted,like the water in the faucet. You don't miss it till the well runs dry. (That's in a Jerry Jeff Walker song) Last edited by HiBC; February 7, 2018 at 02:15 PM.

February 7, 2018, 12:38 PM	#15
Ordinary_guy Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2018 Posts: 7	Thanks for your input. Will look into it. Found something interesting about the survival rate regarding if you get shot or stabbed. According to this study from Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvaniait's the survival rate is the same: https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/ne...imilar-for-gun The thoughts I had was that it seems to be that countries with stricter gun control still have knife stabbings instead for example. Many gun-control studies states that gunrelated violence go down with stricter control. No sh..t Sherlock! But there are stabbings instead... Have to look into some relevant studies in that area as well. The reason that I put some energy into this is that I feel that the Second Amendment that you have in the US is more or less unique (what I know at least) and that IF guns can be seen as a HELP in society instead of people being fearful of them, it could help a lot. In Europe where I live the attitudes are absolutely hilarious. Many preconceptions about guns being the root of all evil. People have used weapons for self defence since dawn of humanity. It's a tool like everything else. I could agree on that nuclear weapons are VERY difficult to use except as a deterrent, but otherwise all weapons are only tools, to be used by both good and bad guys. If you have any other thoughts regarding these issues, please feel free to add to the thread. /OG

February 7, 2018, 12:45 PM	#16
Ordinary_guy Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2018 Posts: 7	"...believe the freedom to buy, keep and bear arms is essential to liberty. That is the only solid argument needed in my view." I can agree to that, but with the reservation that liberty shouldn't be at the expense of other peoples right or health. For example, if some guy finds a way to miniaturise an atomic bomb, I don't feel that it's a persons "right" to have it or use it. It's too dangerous to the people around him/her. So personally I don't believe in TOTAL freedom when it comes to VERY dangerous stuff. But in principle, yes.

February 7, 2018, 02:19 PM	#17
fredvon4 Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2010 Location: Lampasas Texas Posts: 154	Manta 49 Take those stats you posted "Lets deal in facts there are around 50 firearms related murders in the UK each compared with around 8,000 in America, lets not point to other countries like every things OK in America, and there are no issues." and apply some simple population math, include illegal immigrants and a shallow understanding of Gangs and derive some percent per 100,000 citizens then try hard to find the very nebulous data on How Many Armed Citizens save their own or someone else life well crap I do not feel like the next three paragraphs I feel confident stating that I intuitively know a armed population is safer INDIVIDUALLY despite the added very low accidental and suicide death rates per capita Murder rates must be evaluated by all means of the death, not just guns I note that in ALL areas where guns are strictly controlled....none got violent crime to significantly decrease

February 7, 2018, 02:43 PM	#18
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	A fairly recent example of the armed citizen,and the very biased,agenda driven media,and subsequent public perception: Thornton,Colorado,a suburb of Denver Some speculation required...but a gunman entered a Walmart and began shooting (apparently) random customers . He killed three,then stopped,turned and left. The media report? "Armed citizens,seen in surveillance video DELAYED the police investigation for hours.." Media message ? The armed citizens were a problem. Statistics? Three killed by a gunman. My interpretation? A nut job * walked into a Walmart to run up a body count,a wolf among sheep.No telling how many he would have killed before police could respond .As he killed the third,he notices armed citizens drawing lawfully held concealed weapons. OOPS! Now he is NOT a wolf among sheep. He stops killing and walks away. Response time,seconds.Results:Killing stopped. Threat over...Armed citizens ,responsibly,did not fire a shot. https://patch.com/colorado/denver/wa...-woman-wounded Last edited by HiBC; February 7, 2018 at 03:06 PM.

February 7, 2018, 03:03 PM	#19
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	Ordinary_guy your atomic bomb reference is interesting. The same thought process is often used to justify limiting the weapons acceptable for ownership here. Removable "high capacity" magazines, semi-automatic "assault" weapons, handguns and firearms in general have all been argued to be too dangerous for the greater good. I am not advocating for weapons of mass destruction . They represent a global threat to the greater good and should be treated as such. Liberty is a tricky thing. By its nature it is messy and uncomfortable. At times even dangerous. I'm good with that. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

February 7, 2018, 03:34 PM	#20
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	Welcome to TFL, Ordinary guy! I think you've come to the right place. If you want statistics, we have a small thread that will give you some good, reliable numbers here: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=517074 As far as arguments go . . . . I'll agree that anti-gun rhetoric seems to be everywhere. Much of it, however, is pretty easily defeated if one just thinks logically for a minute. For example, the anti-gunners like to claim that "more guns equals more crime," but the statistics don't bear that out. One of our (pro-gun) favorite examples is Chicago. Illinois (abbreviated IL) has notoriously strict gun laws, and Chicago should be an anti-gunner's dream city, filled with peace love and happiness. However, the FBI's uniform crime statistics do not bear this out. It's been a while since I looked at those numbers, but (if memory serves) Chicago has one of the highest violent crime rates in the country. By comparison, I think Dallas or Houston have looser crime laws and lower crime rates. We have to be careful of causation, so we cannot safely say "more guns led to lower crime rates," but we can safely say that "stricter gun laws did not lead to lower crime rates." Further, and on a more personal note, I've frequently posted that I don't really give a damn about the numbers. Governments care about the number of people who get killed. I'm far more concerned with who those people are. My family, for example. If some law would magically cut the number of deaths by firearms by half, but leave my family defenseless, I'd still oppose it. And the reality of the situation is that in the event of a violent attack, the odds of a police officer just happening to be available to stop the attack are virtually nil. It's far and away more likely that I'll be forced to defend myself or my family. I'd also urge you to look at South America. It's my understanding that most of those countries have extremely strict gun control, yet they remain some of the most violent places on earth. The bad guys will get guns, whether or not anti-gun legislation is enacted. If guns are outlawed, the bad guys will buy them illegally. If they can't buy one, they'll steal it. If they can neither steal nor buy one, they'll figure out how to make one. Laws only affect those who are inclined to obey them. Finally, I'll direct you to one of my favorite blog posts on the issue. One of the key points made is that a world without guns isn't the same as a world without violence. http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/01/04/a-world-without-guns/ Again, welcome to TFL! __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.

February 7, 2018, 03:53 PM	#23
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Since we have talked about guns and knives,etc. Giving credibility to the Tueller concept...That a bad guy with a knife might stick me before I can respond with my handgun, And assuming he got me ;If I am armed,I can at least hope I will fall on a pile of my own hot brass. https://youtu.be/93PBNHXXWWs Last edited by HiBC; February 7, 2018 at 03:59 PM.

February 7, 2018, 04:11 PM	#25
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	The logical argument I hold for easy access to firearms is it allows the "little old lady" to have a near equal ability to defend herself as the body builder. A firearm is the ultimate statement in equality because it overcomes most natural physical advantages an attacker may have due to gender, age, or general health. Besides the right to effective self defense is a basic human right and is an individual right not to be turned over to to the state. The state may augment that right but it must not supersede it.