What is it?

ligonierbill · October 11, 2018, 07:07 AM

I asked this question on a more specialized forum, but maybe you can have some fun with it. This chamber cast is from an 1890's vintage Büchsflinte (Brits would call it a cape gun). About 2" in length, other dimensions (corrected for Cerrosafe expansion):

Groove (7, so an approximation) 0.470
Case mouth (not well defined) 0.513
Base 0.525
Rim 0.605

I have an idea of what it is, but I don't know for sure. What do you think?

**Mike Irwin** · October 11, 2018, 07:24 AM

I have something tickling the back of my mind, but I can't place it right now. I'll have to go home later and check my references.

It appears to be a straight case with a slight neck, but that may just be the fall into the leade.

GWS · October 11, 2018, 03:34 PM

.45-70 is too obvious....I give up.

ligonierbill · October 11, 2018, 03:39 PM

Too wide for 45-70. I tried a new case, and it rattles around.

Grey_Lion · October 11, 2018, 09:25 PM

I saw something online recently that had to do with making a sort of jumbo case to contain the & be the firing chamber for a 3D printed gun - are the case walls exceptionally thick?

Could someone have been dumb enough to rough out a .50 case?

Scorch · October 12, 2018, 12:46 AM

You didn't give a case length, but . . .475 NE?

**Mike Irwin** · October 12, 2018, 06:16 AM

"You didn't give a case length, but . . .475 NE?"

Uhm.... the picture shows the cast laying on top of a ruler.

It appears to be in the 60 mm range, which makes it way too short for a .475.

But, the base and rim diameters are VERY close to the .475...

**Unclenick** · October 12, 2018, 08:37 PM

It looks to me like the taper of the ball throat begins at about 52 mm, so the case is no longer than that.

**Mike Irwin** · October 13, 2018, 07:59 AM

Unfortunately I'm still coming up with nothing.

Closest I could find are the 10.75x65 Collath, but the bullet isn't the correct diameter for that round.

The 10.3x60 Swiss is close, but it also has a well defined neck, and the bullet isn't the correct diameter.

I've got one more source that may give me some insight -- Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions.

After that, you may need to contact one of the collector's societies.

the Black Spot · October 13, 2018, 08:46 AM

The 450 no. 2 and 475 no. 2 are longer than normal NE's.
Could be one of those earlier black powder express cartridges

**Unclenick** · October 13, 2018, 09:28 AM

Looking around, I think it is possibly a Danish variant of the Remington Model 67 Rolling Block cartridges originally made for a joint Swedish-Norwegian arms purchase a few years after our civil war, first in rimfire and later in centerfire. At 0.47" groove, the bullet diameter for the OP's casting is just over 11.9 mm. The original cartridge's bullet is bigger at 12.6 mm, but there is an "11.44 mm" variant in QuickLOAD's database with an actual bullet diameter of 0.469". It is called: "11,44×45,5R Rem Danish M/67". The rim and back of the case are a little narrow for the casting, but the original cartridge looks a little big for it. The QL database says the dimensions are based on an "old SFM drawing". I don't know what SFM stands for but it may refer to the Swedish military. I do know the Wikipedia entry on the larger original m.67 cartridge shows a drawing in linjers which are tenths of a Swedish inch or of a Norwegian inch, two units that were about 5.7% different from one another and which are which are about 28% and 21% bigger than an American inch, respectively. So there is room for unit conversion error in all this. Indeed, just multiplying by the difference in lengths and diameters between Swedish and Norwegian unit difference just about converts between the two original cartridges. I have no clue what a Danish inch may have been back then.

ligonierbill · October 16, 2018, 08:49 AM

Unclenick, you may be right, at least close. The chamber cast dimensions don't completely match, but the guy I bought it from thinks it is 11.7x51R Danish. Chamber could be a little over size. The seller never fired it, but someone apparently did. He is sending me a partial box of Buffalo Arms ammo with 6 fired cases. Black powder, of course. The cases should say a lot. What I can't figure is why a Bavarian gunmaker (C. Stiegele, Munich) would chamber a Danish round. But this is circa 1890, so all monarchies with lots of social and family connections. Maybe a Danish prince was shopping in Munich.

Scorch · October 16, 2018, 03:39 PM

Quote:

What I can't figure is why a Bavarian gunmaker (C. Stiegele, Munich) would chamber a Danish round.

Because the customer wanted that? Had a customer bring in a very nice European-made Cape gun recently. Case was essentially a 11mm Mauser case, but the bore was .427", about .021"/.55mm smaller than the 11mm Mauser (.448"). Custom dies for sure.

gwpercle · October 18, 2018, 03:16 PM

Can you post some photo's of the rifle ? Sounds interesting .
Gary

ligonierbill · October 19, 2018, 11:07 AM

I will post pictures in a new thread. This one is played out.

ligonierbill · October 26, 2018, 12:43 PM

Not closure, but close enough. I took my new toy to the range yesterday and fired both shotgun and rifle. The shotgun measured IC with a choke gauge, and it delivered a nice even pattern at 25 yd with RST 2 1/2" shells. These are 1,125 fps with 3/4 oz shot. Before shooting the 11.7x51R the seller sent me, I measured the new (Buffalo Arms reformed from 348 Win) and the spent cases. The only dimension that changed was case mouth OD, from 0.483 to 0.488. So, I put a few down range. These rounds are 0.459 395 gr RN over black. Sights seem to be on. My spent cases measured the same.

So??? I'm not convinced it is 11.7 Danish. But it's close enough to fire form cases. A 0.458 bullet slides right into a fired case. Here's my plan. I ordered some 0.460 405 gr hollow base bullets and a 45 caliber taper crimp die from BA. Still slightly under bore, but the hollow base may help take the rifling. I will load FFg in the amount that allows me to seat the bullet over a slightly compressed charge and fiber wad. Taper crimp the round and go.

The other alternative is to paper patch some 458 bullets like the old buffalo hunters did. It sure works for 50-70. But I doubt any Bayrische Jäger did that.

October 11, 2018, 07:24 AM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I have something tickling the back of my mind, but I can't place it right now. I'll have to go home later and check my references. It appears to be a straight case with a slight neck, but that may just be the fall into the leade. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 12, 2018, 12:46 AM	#6
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	You didn't give a case length, but . . .475 NE? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

October 12, 2018, 06:16 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"You didn't give a case length, but . . .475 NE?" Uhm.... the picture shows the cast laying on top of a ruler. It appears to be in the 60 mm range, which makes it way too short for a .475. But, the base and rim diameters are VERY close to the .475... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 12, 2018, 08:37 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	It looks to me like the taper of the ball throat begins at about 52 mm, so the case is no longer than that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 13, 2018, 07:59 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Unfortunately I'm still coming up with nothing. Closest I could find are the 10.75x65 Collath, but the bullet isn't the correct diameter for that round. The 10.3x60 Swiss is close, but it also has a well defined neck, and the bullet isn't the correct diameter. I've got one more source that may give me some insight -- Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions. After that, you may need to contact one of the collector's societies. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 11, 2018, 03:34 PM	#3
GWS Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: New Mexico Posts: 688	.45-70 is too obvious....I give up.

October 11, 2018, 03:39 PM	#4
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	Too wide for 45-70. I tried a new case, and it rattles around.

October 11, 2018, 09:25 PM	#5
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 406	I saw something online recently that had to do with making a sort of jumbo case to contain the & be the firing chamber for a 3D printed gun - are the case walls exceptionally thick? Could someone have been dumb enough to rough out a .50 case?

October 13, 2018, 08:46 AM	#10
the Black Spot Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: arkansas Posts: 218	The 450 no. 2 and 475 no. 2 are longer than normal NE's. Could be one of those earlier black powder express cartridges

October 13, 2018, 09:28 AM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Looking around, I think it is possibly a Danish variant of the Remington Model 67 Rolling Block cartridges originally made for a joint Swedish-Norwegian arms purchase a few years after our civil war, first in rimfire and later in centerfire. At 0.47" groove, the bullet diameter for the OP's casting is just over 11.9 mm. The original cartridge's bullet is bigger at 12.6 mm, but there is an "11.44 mm" variant in QuickLOAD's database with an actual bullet diameter of 0.469". It is called: "11,44×45,5R Rem Danish M/67". The rim and back of the case are a little narrow for the casting, but the original cartridge looks a little big for it. The QL database says the dimensions are based on an "old SFM drawing". I don't know what SFM stands for but it may refer to the Swedish military. I do know the Wikipedia entry on the larger original m.67 cartridge shows a drawing in linjers which are tenths of a Swedish inch or of a Norwegian inch, two units that were about 5.7% different from one another and which are which are about 28% and 21% bigger than an American inch, respectively. So there is room for unit conversion error in all this. Indeed, just multiplying by the difference in lengths and diameters between Swedish and Norwegian unit difference just about converts between the two original cartridges. I have no clue what a Danish inch may have been back then. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 16, 2018, 08:49 AM	#12
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	Unclenick, you may be right, at least close. The chamber cast dimensions don't completely match, but the guy I bought it from thinks it is 11.7x51R Danish. Chamber could be a little over size. The seller never fired it, but someone apparently did. He is sending me a partial box of Buffalo Arms ammo with 6 fired cases. Black powder, of course. The cases should say a lot. What I can't figure is why a Bavarian gunmaker (C. Stiegele, Munich) would chamber a Danish round. But this is circa 1890, so all monarchies with lots of social and family connections. Maybe a Danish prince was shopping in Munich.

October 18, 2018, 03:16 PM	#14
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Can you post some photo's of the rifle ? Sounds interesting . Gary Last edited by gwpercle; October 18, 2018 at 03:21 PM.

October 19, 2018, 11:07 AM	#15
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	I will post pictures in a new thread. This one is played out.

October 26, 2018, 12:43 PM	#16
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	Not closure, but close enough. I took my new toy to the range yesterday and fired both shotgun and rifle. The shotgun measured IC with a choke gauge, and it delivered a nice even pattern at 25 yd with RST 2 1/2" shells. These are 1,125 fps with 3/4 oz shot. Before shooting the 11.7x51R the seller sent me, I measured the new (Buffalo Arms reformed from 348 Win) and the spent cases. The only dimension that changed was case mouth OD, from 0.483 to 0.488. So, I put a few down range. These rounds are 0.459 395 gr RN over black. Sights seem to be on. My spent cases measured the same. So??? I'm not convinced it is 11.7 Danish. But it's close enough to fire form cases. A 0.458 bullet slides right into a fired case. Here's my plan. I ordered some 0.460 405 gr hollow base bullets and a 45 caliber taper crimp die from BA. Still slightly under bore, but the hollow base may help take the rifling. I will load FFg in the amount that allows me to seat the bullet over a slightly compressed charge and fiber wad. Taper crimp the round and go. The other alternative is to paper patch some 458 bullets like the old buffalo hunters did. It sure works for 50-70. But I doubt any Bayrische Jäger did that.

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