Linotype questions

BOOGIE the oily · December 1, 2017, 10:01 PM

Ok, since I intend to start reloading and casting in the (hopefully) near future, I'm on the hunt for anything that may be useful to me, when the time comes.
Today, lurking around on the web, I found a guy that was selling "linotype lead" (in homemade ingots), at an unusually high price (about U$S 3 per Lb, when others are selling scrap linotype for about U$S 1 to 1.50 per Lb.), and, to justify the price, he's making some claims I'd like to learn more about.

First, he says all his ingots have a durometer mark, and a stamp with the lead's actual hardness, that he claims is 20 Brinnel. Now, knowing my countrymen, and how easy it is to make a dent on a piece of metal, and stamp a number, that claim means absolutely nothing to me.
But he goes on to say that on actual linotype, tin and antimony get depleted with use, and that the used linotype others are selling is actually between 8 and 15 Brinnell at best, and that when smelting linotype, between 20 and 30% weight is lost because of steel plates and whatnot, plus some extra loss due to dross.

Is that true?
And if it is (and assuming the "stamped hardness" on the ingots is real), does it justify paying about twice as much for this metal?

Smoke & Recoil · December 2, 2017, 08:40 AM

Linotype is/was used for printing press' and is a very brittle lead, not suitable straight up for casting bullets, unless you're in a real bind for bullets. When
looking for lead, also check for wheel weights that are used to balance tires, these make for good bullet casting and are easy to deal with.

joed · December 2, 2017, 09:00 AM

Linotype was used in the printing trade for many years. The antimony does get depleted and was added when it was melted down and made into ingots for reuse. Every so often a sample was sent out to determine its makeup and the company would buy antimony to add correcting it.

It is not brittle and was softer then monotype or foundry lead which are harder still. I worked in the printing trade for a good number of years.

I wouldn't trust a stamp.

boatswainsmate · December 2, 2017, 05:32 PM

What are your plans for sizing the bullets and what type of lubrication do you plan on using? If your planing on handgun under 1300 FPS then Wheel weight lead should work well for you. If your planing on over 1300 fps I would suggest a gas check and a higher BHN lead. The linotype,monotype and foundrytype all help sweeten your casting alloy to your needs. I only buy printers lead in raw form. This will help you understand the different alloy's better. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

boatswainsmate · December 2, 2017, 05:40 PM

A sample.

dahermit · December 2, 2017, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Linotype is/was used for printing press' and is a very brittle lead, not suitable straight up for casting bullets, unless you're in a real bind for bullets. When
looking for lead, also check for wheel weights that are used to balance tires, these make for good bullet casting and are easy to deal with.

Linotype was and is the standard for accuracy when shooting cast lead bullets in rifles (see Cast Lead Bullet Association). It also made a superior alloy for handgun bullets but nowadays it is considered to be a wasteful use of the Tin which could be used to blend with softer lead alloys for the purpose of hardening and improving mold fill-out.
One of the "problems" with "Linotype" is that much of the "Linotype" is not Linotype at all but one of the other print alloys with varying degrees of the three constituent metals. According to a printer friend of mine (now deceased), the "spacers" between the typeface were called "rules" and were of a softer alloy than the alloy he used in his printing business.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_metal

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 2, 2017, 09:35 PM

If intending to buy pure lino from a stranger . Never ever buy previously smelted lino. boatswainsmate picture of lino is 100% correct and a buyer needs to ask that his purchase resemble the pix. i.e. Strips & pieces and saw dust looking.

BOOGIE the oily · December 2, 2017, 09:44 PM

Thank you all for the replies. So there is something to this guy's claims (though I don't trust his stamp either).

Fact is I will reload pistol cartridges, for 9mm and maybe .32 acp, so yeah, I know I don't need linotype. But in here EVERYTHING is either hard to come by, expensive, or both, so you take what's available. Linotype gives me the ability to alloy it with some pure lead (a lot cheaper), to fine tune the alloy hardness to suit my needs. By the way, I did read the Fryxell book already. Great book.

Oh! I forgot: I intend to PC my bullets, so no lubing.

reddog81 · December 3, 2017, 05:48 PM

Homemade ingots makes it all sound suspicious. Why smelt everything into homemade ingots??? He'd have better luck selling Linotype in one of its original forms.

$3 per pound is about double what I would pay, but your circumstances down in Argentina may vary significantly from us up here in the USA.

Some people have no idea what they are talking about. There's someone local to me that's trying to sell 500 lbs at $4.00 a pound and claiming that it's a really good deal because lead normally cost twice that much. I've considered sending him a link to kitco.com showing that the current price of lead is $1.15

joed · December 3, 2017, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure Shot Mc Gee

If intending to buy pure lino from a stranger . Never ever buy previously smelted lino. boatswainsmate picture of lino is 100% correct and a buyer needs to ask that his purchase resemble the pix. i.e. Strips & pieces and saw dust looking.

Linotype is line of lead with many characters making up the piece of lead.

Monotype is individual letters that were either put together on a monotype machine or by a typesetter from a case that held all the letters. Monotype is harder then linotype. The pieces that were called rules are called leading and were used to put space between the lines. Rules are near the same thing but print an underline. These are monotype also.

Foundry type is individual letters but much bigger in size. They were used for headlines and are the hardest lead of all.

I couldn't tell you the makeup of the alloys as I did this work 45 years ago.

I also find it hard to believe that there is much of this lead left as the number of shops doing that type of printing has got to be very small. However, there may still be quite a few in some of the south american countries.

BOOGIE the oily · December 3, 2017, 10:01 PM

Thank you all again.

The homemade ingots were the first thing that made me suspect (and the fact that they were made using a muffin pan didn't help his credibility much

) .
Then there was the price, and finally the whole "durometer mark-stamped hardness" thing.
I mean, somebody is gonna go buy a durometer to end up selling homemade lead alloy ingots to reloaders?
I'm definitely gonna start visiting tire shops. Reality is, like it's been said above, I don't need 20BHN lead, and I'm not paying that price, ever.

I saw the guy started a thread selling his stuff on an Argentinian forum, and several people are showing interest. What can I say... P.T. Barnum was so right...

pete2 · December 4, 2017, 09:50 PM

Years ago when I did cast bullet I used straight Lino, it's very hard, shot it in a .44 mag at full velocity. Back when it was .50 lb so it was affordable. It casts a beautiful bullet, near perfect, on a good day sub 2" groups at 50 yards, little to no leading. The load we shot back then was hotter than what's rec. now days with 2400. My experience was max. loads were more accurate than lighter loads. I was never able to make an accurate light load.

December 1, 2017, 10:01 PM	#1
BOOGIE the oily Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2017 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 110	Linotype questions Ok, since I intend to start reloading and casting in the (hopefully) near future, I'm on the hunt for anything that may be useful to me, when the time comes. Today, lurking around on the web, I found a guy that was selling "linotype lead" (in homemade ingots), at an unusually high price (about U$S 3 per Lb, when others are selling scrap linotype for about U$S 1 to 1.50 per Lb.), and, to justify the price, he's making some claims I'd like to learn more about. First, he says all his ingots have a durometer mark, and a stamp with the lead's actual hardness, that he claims is 20 Brinnel. Now, knowing my countrymen, and how easy it is to make a dent on a piece of metal, and stamp a number, that claim means absolutely nothing to me. But he goes on to say that on actual linotype, tin and antimony get depleted with use, and that the used linotype others are selling is actually between 8 and 15 Brinnell at best, and that when smelting linotype, between 20 and 30% weight is lost because of steel plates and whatnot, plus some extra loss due to dross. Is that true? And if it is (and assuming the "stamped hardness" on the ingots is real), does it justify paying about twice as much for this metal? __________________ "The world is my country, mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion." (Thomas Paine) "Alcohol doesn't solve anything, but then again, neither does milk."

December 2, 2017, 08:40 AM	#2
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Linotype is/was used for printing press' and is a very brittle lead, not suitable straight up for casting bullets, unless you're in a real bind for bullets. When looking for lead, also check for wheel weights that are used to balance tires, these make for good bullet casting and are easy to deal with. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

December 2, 2017, 09:00 AM	#3
joed Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2014 Posts: 442	Linotype was used in the printing trade for many years. The antimony does get depleted and was added when it was melted down and made into ingots for reuse. Every so often a sample was sent out to determine its makeup and the company would buy antimony to add correcting it. It is not brittle and was softer then monotype or foundry lead which are harder still. I worked in the printing trade for a good number of years. I wouldn't trust a stamp. __________________ The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.

December 2, 2017, 05:32 PM	#4
boatswainsmate Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 41	What are your plans for sizing the bullets and what type of lubrication do you plan on using? If your planing on handgun under 1300 FPS then Wheel weight lead should work well for you. If your planing on over 1300 fps I would suggest a gas check and a higher BHN lead. The linotype,monotype and foundrytype all help sweeten your casting alloy to your needs. I only buy printers lead in raw form. This will help you understand the different alloy's better. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm __________________ Fair Winds & Following Seas

December 2, 2017, 05:40 PM	#5
boatswainsmate Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 41	A sample. __________________ Fair Winds & Following Seas

December 2, 2017, 09:35 PM	#7
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	If intending to buy pure lino from a stranger . Never ever buy previously smelted lino. boatswainsmate picture of lino is 100% correct and a buyer needs to ask that his purchase resemble the pix. i.e. Strips & pieces and saw dust looking. Last edited by Sure Shot Mc Gee; December 2, 2017 at 09:41 PM.

December 2, 2017, 09:44 PM	#8
BOOGIE the oily Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2017 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 110	Thank you all for the replies. So there is something to this guy's claims (though I don't trust his stamp either). Fact is I will reload pistol cartridges, for 9mm and maybe .32 acp, so yeah, I know I don't need linotype. But in here EVERYTHING is either hard to come by, expensive, or both, so you take what's available. Linotype gives me the ability to alloy it with some pure lead (a lot cheaper), to fine tune the alloy hardness to suit my needs. By the way, I did read the Fryxell book already. Great book. Oh! I forgot: I intend to PC my bullets, so no lubing. __________________ "The world is my country, mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion." (Thomas Paine) "Alcohol doesn't solve anything, but then again, neither does milk." Last edited by BOOGIE the oily; December 3, 2017 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Getting old, my memory is failing...

December 3, 2017, 05:48 PM	#9
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Homemade ingots makes it all sound suspicious. Why smelt everything into homemade ingots??? He'd have better luck selling Linotype in one of its original forms. $3 per pound is about double what I would pay, but your circumstances down in Argentina may vary significantly from us up here in the USA. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. There's someone local to me that's trying to sell 500 lbs at $4.00 a pound and claiming that it's a really good deal because lead normally cost twice that much. I've considered sending him a link to kitco.com showing that the current price of lead is $1.15

December 3, 2017, 10:01 PM	#11
BOOGIE the oily Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2017 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 110	Thank you all again. The homemade ingots were the first thing that made me suspect (and the fact that they were made using a muffin pan didn't help his credibility much ) . Then there was the price, and finally the whole "durometer mark-stamped hardness" thing. I mean, somebody is gonna go buy a durometer to end up selling homemade lead alloy ingots to reloaders? I'm definitely gonna start visiting tire shops. Reality is, like it's been said above, I don't need 20BHN lead, and I'm not paying that price, ever. I saw the guy started a thread selling his stuff on an Argentinian forum, and several people are showing interest. What can I say... P.T. Barnum was so right... __________________ "The world is my country, mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion." (Thomas Paine) "Alcohol doesn't solve anything, but then again, neither does milk."

December 4, 2017, 09:50 PM	#12
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Years ago when I did cast bullet I used straight Lino, it's very hard, shot it in a .44 mag at full velocity. Back when it was .50 lb so it was affordable. It casts a beautiful bullet, near perfect, on a good day sub 2" groups at 50 yards, little to no leading. The load we shot back then was hotter than what's rec. now days with 2400. My experience was max. loads were more accurate than lighter loads. I was never able to make an accurate light load.