Knife law changes

Glenn E. Meyer · December 5, 2010, 01:12 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/us...es.html?ref=us

Interesting article on moves to rationalize knife laws that parallel some gun law debates:

1. A patch work of laws by localities that may be superceded by new state laws.

2. The dreaded automatic knife problem. Some police regard these as terrible some don't.

3. The knife is a tool. Better case for that with knives than guns. You can use your pocket knife to cut up your lunch. Hard to do that with your 45.

4. Does the 2nd cover knives?

One just has to look at the UK to see how far knife laws go. They have designed knives that explicitly try to negate their use as a weapon.

csmsss · December 5, 2010, 01:16 PM

I'm greatly in favor of peremptory laws for ALL weapons. Local laws may have made sense when folks rarely left their hometowns (which wasn't altogether uncommon not so terribly long ago). However, we certainly live differently today and the crazy quilt patchwork of local laws can make a technical lawbreaker of anyone.

KLRANGL · December 5, 2010, 04:43 PM

I never did understand how much stigma knives get as "weapons." To me, a knife has always been a tool, not a fighting weapon.

I was at one of my friend's parties with my folding knife sticking out of my front right pocket. One of his Bulgarian friends starts giving me a hard time about why I NEEDED to carry a knife, and that in Bulgaria, the cops would have arrested me. Everyone in the room was smiling, since they all knew I was carrying a concealed handgun as well. I just told him I was an engineer, and use it to cut things every day, and to get over it.
But it still stuck with me. Why the fear of knives? Movies? Or is it really a prevalent weapon used in violent crime?

I also think locality laws do more harm than good.

**44 AMP** · December 5, 2010, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Why the fear of knives? Movies? Or is it really a prevalent weapon used in violent crime?

I doubt its movies. And I believe that more muggings (robberies), rapes, and murders are committed with knives than with guns, even in the "gun loving" USA. They certainly are in countries with more restrictive gun laws.

Yes, most of see regular knives as tools. But they are arms, as well, and so covered under the 2nd Amendment. Even rocks can be arms. Its a matter of intent, I believe.

A small knife is a very useful tool for a huge number of small chores. A larger knife is a useful tool for larger chores. But by the time you increase the size to short sword, the tool function becomes largely irrelevant, and what you have is a weapon, more than a tool. Most jurisdictions are ok with knives under 4" blade length. The TSA gets in a snit at any knife, no matter how short, and even small scissors and nail clippers.

dec41971 · December 9, 2010, 02:33 AM

Research has also shown that rape and robbery victims are more likely to comply and not yell for help when the perp has a knife than they are if perp has a gun! Yup; Think about that, something about getting cut seems to scare people more than the thought of being shot. You are a gun guy, so it may not make any sense to you or me, but such is conflicted world we live in. I just recently learned that myself, and I was just floored by how bizzare it all is. This however applies only to close quaters. When the perp was some distance away, logic seemed to prevail, reaction was similar in each case, but the gun scared more.

Now this goes into speculation, but I am betting in close quaters victims might assume they can deflect the gun and not get hurt, but not the knife?

MLeake · December 9, 2010, 08:36 AM

Fear of knives.... One rational possibility would be that the victim suspects the rapist won't want the attention a gunshot could bring, whereas the knife needs no suppressor.

**44 AMP** · December 9, 2010, 09:58 AM

It makes some sense. When the bad guy says "be quiet" you know he doesn't want noise. SO yelling for help, if he has a gun, he might not shoot you, because a gun makes a lot of noise.

On the other hand, if he has a knife, you know he will cut you if you yell.

We had a an "incident" in Seattle not long ago, a cop shot and killed a guy who had a knife. Turned out to be a bad shoot, and the cop will be doing time. I won't go into all the details, (I'm sure you can look them up), but the knife was a small one (3, maybe 4 inch blade), and the "perp" (now victim) was a middle aged "residence challenged" native American, locally known for his wood carving. He was also somewhat hearing impaired. And several witnesses said that he was not threatening anyone, he just crossed the street. Shot in the side (we find out when they finally, released the autopsy), looks like he was going to be shot in the back and turned just before being hit. The kicker is that the cop was apparently not going to face criminal charges, until the evidence surfaced that the knife wasn't even OPEN!

While I am in favor of the idea of a uniform national standard for knife laws, because there is so much local abuse, in general the idea of national laws is not always a good one. Imposing some federal standard today, well...there's the heavy hand of the central government again. Probably be another unfunded mandate!

LordTio3 · December 9, 2010, 10:52 AM

I'm a martial artist. I've trained several arts to the point of practical weapons defense. In more than one, we have trained practical defense against knives and guns. We always say the same three things...

1. You only use these techniques if you believe beyond a reasonable doubt that this person intends to kill you, and you are using as a last-ditch effort to survive.
2. If it's a gun, don't even try unless they are very close to you.
3. If it's a knife, you are GOING to be cut, and probably cut badly. It's just a matter of who has more blood still inside them when the fighting is over.

Knives are brutal and savage. They scare people when used in crimes because some time ago, we invented guns, and gunfighting techniques that took on a "civilized" tone and served to separate the fighters from the results of their actions. Think a marksman performing a headshot at 500 yards, versus someone using a knife technique to silently eliminate a threat. Now think about a bomber pilot that drops a payload that kills a couple hundred enemies.

We've been separated from it for so long that we forget how brutal violence can get. Having a knife in your face reminds you of that. Seeing someone "asleep" with a small patch of red on their clothes is much easier on the eyes than seeing a man trying to keep his intestines in his abdomen.

And since the restriction of gun laws inevitably will cause more criminals to use knives, it is a natural progression of restriction. Just ask Great Britain.

~LT

Gary L. Griffiths · December 9, 2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

We've been separated from it for so long that we forget how brutal violence can get. Having a knife in your face reminds you of that. Seeing someone "asleep" with a small patch of red on their clothes is much easier on the eyes than seeing a man trying to keep his intestines in his abdomen.

Very true. One of the worst crime scenes I ever investigated back in the day was in a barracks room at Ft. Lewis, where two great big guys decided to beat up a little bitty guy who had a knife, and knew how to use it. I was literally wading over the toes of my boots in their blood as I supervised the agents on the scene.

BlueTrain · December 10, 2010, 07:39 AM

The last two posts made some interesting and important points. We are so domesticated (not the same as civilized) that most people cannot relate to the origin of the food they eat. People do not wear clothes that are warm enough in the winter. And most people have so little exposure to violence that they are shocked when they see it. And then there's death, which usually happens in the hospital, although honestly, I can't think of a single person I know who died in a hospital. All of that notwithstanding, I can't say I'd want to live much different than I do now, since I already know how the other half lives.

I was present at the execution and dissection of a beef but that experience certainly hasn't kept me from eating anything beef related. Potatoes grow underground; would that keep anyone from eating them if they had to dig them out themselves? I was in lots of fights when I was younger. Does that make me think violence has its uses? Or that there's nothing especially bad about it? Hardly! Things go bad all the time but you eventually figure out its not the end. Sometimes other things are more important.

deathrider · December 10, 2010, 09:02 AM

a knife is a tool, I make my living cutting meat, I use a assortment of sizes, & they become an extension of your hand when you use them enough, I carry a small folding knife everywhere I go, I use it everyday at work opening cases of poroduct, & use it quite often around the home, & yard.

I braid meat twine, then every inch I tie a knot, then drop it in my pocket, if I need the knife, I just reach for the twine, & pull & a knife appears, it is a 1 hand opening with a 2 1/2 inch blade, & I keep it nearly razor shop, I touch up the blade every week or so on steel or the sharpener as needed at work, & every couple years I replace the knife because of the blade being way smaller than originally. keeping sharpened does take a toll on blades if you work a knife hard. it opens at least 150+ cases a week.

Randy

December 5, 2010, 01:12 PM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Knife law changes http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/us...es.html?ref=us Interesting article on moves to rationalize knife laws that parallel some gun law debates: 1. A patch work of laws by localities that may be superceded by new state laws. 2. The dreaded automatic knife problem. Some police regard these as terrible some don't. 3. The knife is a tool. Better case for that with knives than guns. You can use your pocket knife to cut up your lunch. Hard to do that with your 45. 4. Does the 2nd cover knives? One just has to look at the UK to see how far knife laws go. They have designed knives that explicitly try to negate their use as a weapon. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 5, 2010, 04:43 PM	#3
KLRANGL Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 958	I never did understand how much stigma knives get as "weapons." To me, a knife has always been a tool, not a fighting weapon. I was at one of my friend's parties with my folding knife sticking out of my front right pocket. One of his Bulgarian friends starts giving me a hard time about why I NEEDED to carry a knife, and that in Bulgaria, the cops would have arrested me. Everyone in the room was smiling, since they all knew I was carrying a concealed handgun as well. I just told him I was an engineer, and use it to cut things every day, and to get over it. But it still stuck with me. Why the fear of knives? Movies? Or is it really a prevalent weapon used in violent crime? I also think locality laws do more harm than good. __________________ And it's Killer Angel... as in the book

December 9, 2010, 09:58 AM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	It makes some sense. When the bad guy says "be quiet" you know he doesn't want noise. SO yelling for help, if he has a gun, he might not shoot you, because a gun makes a lot of noise. On the other hand, if he has a knife, you know he will cut you if you yell. We had a an "incident" in Seattle not long ago, a cop shot and killed a guy who had a knife. Turned out to be a bad shoot, and the cop will be doing time. I won't go into all the details, (I'm sure you can look them up), but the knife was a small one (3, maybe 4 inch blade), and the "perp" (now victim) was a middle aged "residence challenged" native American, locally known for his wood carving. He was also somewhat hearing impaired. And several witnesses said that he was not threatening anyone, he just crossed the street. Shot in the side (we find out when they finally, released the autopsy), looks like he was going to be shot in the back and turned just before being hit. The kicker is that the cop was apparently not going to face criminal charges, until the evidence surfaced that the knife wasn't even OPEN! While I am in favor of the idea of a uniform national standard for knife laws, because there is so much local abuse, in general the idea of national laws is not always a good one. Imposing some federal standard today, well...there's the heavy hand of the central government again. Probably be another unfunded mandate! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 9, 2010, 10:52 AM	#8
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	I'm a martial artist. I've trained several arts to the point of practical weapons defense. In more than one, we have trained practical defense against knives and guns. We always say the same three things... 1. You only use these techniques if you believe beyond a reasonable doubt that this person intends to kill you, and you are using as a last-ditch effort to survive. 2. If it's a gun, don't even try unless they are very close to you. 3. If it's a knife, you are GOING to be cut, and probably cut badly. It's just a matter of who has more blood still inside them when the fighting is over. Knives are brutal and savage. They scare people when used in crimes because some time ago, we invented guns, and gunfighting techniques that took on a "civilized" tone and served to separate the fighters from the results of their actions. Think a marksman performing a headshot at 500 yards, versus someone using a knife technique to silently eliminate a threat. Now think about a bomber pilot that drops a payload that kills a couple hundred enemies. We've been separated from it for so long that we forget how brutal violence can get. Having a knife in your face reminds you of that. Seeing someone "asleep" with a small patch of red on their clothes is much easier on the eyes than seeing a man trying to keep his intestines in his abdomen. And since the restriction of gun laws inevitably will cause more criminals to use knives, it is a natural progression of restriction. Just ask Great Britain. ~LT __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.

December 10, 2010, 07:39 AM	#10
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	The last two posts made some interesting and important points. We are so domesticated (not the same as civilized) that most people cannot relate to the origin of the food they eat. People do not wear clothes that are warm enough in the winter. And most people have so little exposure to violence that they are shocked when they see it. And then there's death, which usually happens in the hospital, although honestly, I can't think of a single person I know who died in a hospital. All of that notwithstanding, I can't say I'd want to live much different than I do now, since I already know how the other half lives. I was present at the execution and dissection of a beef but that experience certainly hasn't kept me from eating anything beef related. Potatoes grow underground; would that keep anyone from eating them if they had to dig them out themselves? I was in lots of fights when I was younger. Does that make me think violence has its uses? Or that there's nothing especially bad about it? Hardly! Things go bad all the time but you eventually figure out its not the end. Sometimes other things are more important. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

December 5, 2010, 01:16 PM	#2
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I'm greatly in favor of peremptory laws for ALL weapons. Local laws may have made sense when folks rarely left their hometowns (which wasn't altogether uncommon not so terribly long ago). However, we certainly live differently today and the crazy quilt patchwork of local laws can make a technical lawbreaker of anyone.

December 9, 2010, 02:33 AM	#5
dec41971 Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2009 Posts: 236	Research has also shown that rape and robbery victims are more likely to comply and not yell for help when the perp has a knife than they are if perp has a gun! Yup; Think about that, something about getting cut seems to scare people more than the thought of being shot. You are a gun guy, so it may not make any sense to you or me, but such is conflicted world we live in. I just recently learned that myself, and I was just floored by how bizzare it all is. This however applies only to close quaters. When the perp was some distance away, logic seemed to prevail, reaction was similar in each case, but the gun scared more. Now this goes into speculation, but I am betting in close quaters victims might assume they can deflect the gun and not get hurt, but not the knife?

December 9, 2010, 08:36 AM	#6
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Fear of knives.... One rational possibility would be that the victim suspects the rapist won't want the attention a gunshot could bring, whereas the knife needs no suppressor.

December 10, 2010, 09:02 AM	#11
deathrider Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Location: VA Posts: 40	a knife is a tool, I make my living cutting meat, I use a assortment of sizes, & they become an extension of your hand when you use them enough, I carry a small folding knife everywhere I go, I use it everyday at work opening cases of poroduct, & use it quite often around the home, & yard. I braid meat twine, then every inch I tie a knot, then drop it in my pocket, if I need the knife, I just reach for the twine, & pull & a knife appears, it is a 1 hand opening with a 2 1/2 inch blade, & I keep it nearly razor shop, I touch up the blade every week or so on steel or the sharpener as needed at work, & every couple years I replace the knife because of the blade being way smaller than originally. keeping sharpened does take a toll on blades if you work a knife hard. it opens at least 150+ cases a week. Randy