New Way of Thinking - Page 2

Blackwater OPS · December 13, 2005, 04:14 PM

Not you, DimitriS is the Leiberman supporter.

Quote:

Well younger kids brains arnt fully developed and they cant seperate between a game or movie and real life.

Is that a medical fact? Are you a neurologist?

DimitriS · December 13, 2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Is that a medical fact? Are you a neurologist?

No I am not a neurologist. This is the best I can remember from what I was taught in grade 11 psycology

Well that and the fact I know quite a few kids who are younger (aged 8 to 12) that cant tell the difference between real life and fantisy/movies.

I belive its called cognitive development donno though I took the course 3 years ago.

And who is Leiberman ??

Dimitri

Blackwater OPS · December 13, 2005, 08:12 PM

Leiberman is a demokrat who blames video games for youth violence. Also, I remember that when I was 10 I knew the difference between make belive and reality. So does my 5 year old niece, not that I think she should be playing doom 3.

DimitriS · December 13, 2005, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Leiberman is a demokrat who blames video games for youth violence. Also, I remember that when I was 10 I knew the difference between make belive and reality. So does my 5 year old niece, not that I think she should be playing doom 3.

Hey I am not saying everyone is affected by them but alot of the kids who do bad things seem to have been effected by them from the ones I know

Anyways I am not supporting that guy as he probrobly wants all "violent" vedio games banned and God knows I like playing ocassionally my Xbox with a good war/action game. My personal favorite is SW: Battlefronts 1

Dimitri

Brian D. · December 13, 2005, 11:04 PM

I try to keep in mind that one Alphonse Capone was out terrorizing, assaulting, and killing folks as early as age 13 or 14, according to one or more biographers. He was part of an urban ethnic youth gang, and murder for hire, or as part of a robbery, paid better than more petty types of crime. Apparently a few of his less famous contemporaries did the same thing, as did the gangsters of 10, 20, or 80 years later. Many got an equally early start on that path in life.

Guess what I'd done if I'd been that car salesman in Texarkana?

donglock26 · December 15, 2005, 07:01 PM

The "Village" is a lousy parent.

progunner1957 · December 15, 2005, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Could you pull the trigger on a 12 year old?

Absolutely. I have a wife and a family to take care of. I will not let a killer, regardless of age, make my wife a widow.

I didn't say it would be easy to do, but I have a very high level of desire to live. Adults have the right to ensure their survival, regardless of the age of the thug that is trying to kill them.

Glock 31 · December 16, 2005, 02:13 AM

+1

gdeal · December 16, 2005, 03:52 AM

I don't think car salesman should be packing. Yes I could shoot anyone that had a loaded weapon pointing at me. But what are you going to do?

Blackwater OPS · December 16, 2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

I don't think car salesman should be packing.

What do you do for a living? Maybe you should not packing either!

Also, its very easy to SAY you would do something, another matter entirely to DO it when the SHTF.

threefivesevenmag · December 16, 2005, 05:21 PM

I work with behaviorally disturbed children on a daily basis.

Children develop cognitively and socially at different rates. We have 5th graders that have the mental abilities and associations than a "normal" 3 or 4 year old more than likely possesses.

I have seen children do horrible things to themselves, adults, peers, and even lash out towards me. I have seen an 8 year old try to slash another classmate's throat with a pair of scissors. He was mad because the other child had apparently taken a playing card of his.

Honestly, some of the things these children witness or are a part of is terrible. Some are sexually abused, foster parented, beaten regularly, starved, witness murders in their family, and probably have mild mental disabilities. I do not condone their actions, but I understand where they come from. It is a very sad part of our society.

The main problem I believe is the parents. They are not capable of handling themselves, let alone a growing child that might have cognitive delays or other physical problems. They live in abusive environments. Their homes are falling apart and there is no adult presence whatsoever. Sometimes there are 12 kids raising each other. It's horrible and can cause terrible mental issues, violence issues, and a general distaste for human life.

It is bothering to me that these young kids will grow up and not really be a part of society. I personally know teachers whose students have murdered people, raped women and children, and basically become outlaws. In our schools today we have sexual assaults in elementary and middle school age groups. It's sickening. You try to help them day by day, week by week, but often it might not work. When the kids grow up they turn to violence because that is what they know.

Bad parents=bad kids. No way around it. This has always been a problem, but I believe with a more encroaching media and much more "PC" ways of handling education, our youths look more terrible than ever.

All I can say is, kids are capable of terrible, terrible things.

Do what you have to do to stay alive. You can think about "what-if" for the rest of your life.

DimitriS · December 16, 2005, 06:15 PM

threefivesevenmag,

+1

Quote:

The main problem I believe is the parents.

I agree with that completly. Even if the parents dont abuse there kids letting them get away with everything and not teaching them right and wrong can be just as bad to a kids development as being abusive though. Hense my point about music/movies/vedio games.

PS I am not a Leiberman supporter! Just incase I get called that agian

Dimitri

Doug.38PR · December 16, 2005, 06:40 PM

Rev. Jim
As Christians, you and I both understand the concept of Original Sin. It's doesn't happen after your 18, it comes with you at birth inherited from fallen Adam. That includes 12 year olds and 1 year olds.

stephen426 · December 16, 2005, 06:57 PM

I hate to go off topic about this but this thought is related to the thread...

So what do we do about these messed up kids? Do we try them as adults regardless of what terrible stuff has happened to them during their childhood to make them these monsters? Do we try their parents for not teaching them better? I'm sure there are some messed up kids with good parents that just don't know how to control them. I have cousins by marriage that were adopted by my wife's uncle and aunt. They have some serious issues even though they were never abused (A little spoiled maybe but never abused). One of them has ADHD and a myriad of other problems. The other is smart af a fox and crafty as one too. This is a really tough situation. Is it possible to rehabilitate these kids or does sending them to juvenile detention centers just harden them and surround them with more messed up kids.

There probably is no right answer for this but I really don't buy the fact that these kids don't know right from wrong. Maybe their reality is somewhat warped but I just don't buy the "I didn't know any better" BS. If a kid points a gun at me, I guess I will have to default to my basic self preservation mode. If I can disarm him, I will do so. If I can't... well, I guess I'll have to do what I'll have to do.

Glock 31 · December 17, 2005, 03:23 AM

Doug,
I am also a Christian and understand that we are all born into sin. But I don't see how that affects children in a way that makes them predisposed to evil actions. Evil, like good is a part of us all. What brings out either side is as three five seven put it, positive or negative parenting. Garbage in, garbage out. Although I certainly don't believe that in every bad kid is a good kid waiting to come out. Once a kid has been taught things one way or another, it's practically impossible to unlearn him/her from those things.

I seem to remember that our justice system was much more harsher on parents when their kids under 18 broke laws than it is today. Presumably the reasoning was a common sense one. If the kid is bad, it is due to bad parenting, therefore the parents have to suffer the price. Nowadays though I notice more and more kids being tried as adults even under the age of 18. Does this mean the laws have changed?

Solomon Kane · December 17, 2005, 05:45 AM

Quote:

I am also a Christian and understand that we are all born into sin. But I don't see how that affects children in a way that makes them predisposed to evil actions. Evil, like good is a part of us all. What brings out either side is as three five seven put it, positive or negative parenting. Garbage in, garbage out. Although I certainly don't believe that in every bad kid is a good kid waiting to come out. Once a kid has been taught things one way or another, it's practically impossible to unlearn him/her from those things.

I seem to remember that our justice system was much more harsher on parents when their kids under 18 broke laws than it is today. Presumably the reasoning was a common sense one. If the kid is bad, it is due to bad parenting, therefore the parents have to suffer the price. Nowadays though I notice more and more kids being tried as adults even under the age of 18. Does this mean the laws have changed?

According to Christian theology (which I hold to), we are born totally depraved. We are not good in any way. This is a genetic trait, if you will, passed on by Adam (which is why Christ could not have an earthly father). To simply say we are born in sin, but then say we are partly good is to contradict yourself.

To this day I can remember the first time I ever lied. I pushed my sister down a flight of stairs (something no one taught me to do) and when I asked if I had done it, I said, "No." Cruelty and deceit, these are not vices I was taught. They came naturally to me. By God's grace alone, can I hope to overcome them.

To put the sole blame on parenting is also wrong. I have seen many good families produce a bad kid. I have seen one brother in a good family go bad, while the rest became honorable salt of the earth type folk. I've also seen good kids come from situations where they had no coming out as good kids. Parenting plays a large part, but it is not the only answer to our dilemna.

youp · December 17, 2005, 07:55 AM

Shoot a 12 year old? If need be. Car salesman packing? His or her choice while in compliance with the law. The parents fault maybe yes, maybe no.

In the late 70's I had the opportunity to tour the Middle East compliments of Uncle Sam. There was little crime. It was supposed to be dangerous in the Pakistani slums of Bandar Abas, Iran. I got turned around and ended up lost there and I am still here and no one took anything from me. I was always aware of my surroundings, compliments of a buddy from Chicago that grew up that way and taught me.

The bottom line is we as a free society have come too far from our founding principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In all societies that I am aware of if you cannot live within the rules you are out cast. We have become too liberal in what we consider a rehabilitatable person.

There was no crime in that era of Islam because there was swift and complete punishment. I do not remember the day of the week, but Saudi Arabia had a public execution day, weekly. If you stole they cut your hand off. Your right hand. Adultery? It was your head.

I am not advocating an adoption of Islamic Law in this country, although Islamic crime and punishment law is not too far from Old Testament Law. An eye for an eye. There will an accounting some day, but no one should have to live in fear of these heartless little kids. And society should not be held in hostage, an incorrigable should be removed from society regardless of the age.

Glock 31 · December 18, 2005, 01:15 AM

I think I have to agree with youp on this one. Overall whether or not it was the parent's fault or the kid just turned out to be a worthless little demon, harsh and strict punishment would ensure a cessation to any repeat offenses. I agree our justice system, in some respects, has become decadent and weak. Radical reforms are necessary, including in my opinion, new supreme justices that serve only several year terms rather than life terms. New eyes and new opinions may get some of the more unnecessary laws on the books taken out. Such as laws saying you can't eat an ice cream cone and ride a donkey on a Sunday, take them out, and create new ones along the lines of like, you kill someone, you get the needle. Or you kill someone, you get life and hard labor to pay for your own housing and upkeep.

RevJim · December 20, 2005, 11:47 PM

Last week, I heard an update on the murder of the car salesman. The 17 year old apparently bragged to some friends about the details of the event. They say the salesman pleaded with the 17 year old not to shoot him, since it wasn't even his car and he would let the 17 year old have it. The 17 year old responded, "Dude, it's a BMW!" And then he shot the salesman.

Yes, it seems like parenting plays a huge role. We do seem to be born with a nature bent on evil and we need someone (parents, grandparents, the Village) to drive it out of us. But there are so many things that keep parents from doing it. When you take away moral absolutes, then you are left to argue your own personal beliefs, and they are usually selfishly motivated. If there is no God, then why is it all that wrong to shoot someone over a car? So more than good parenting, we really need a return to the concept that each of us will one day give an account of our lives to our Creator. Children must learn that there are consequences to every action, either good or bad. They must learn that an action is not right or wrong because of the consequence, however; it is right or wrong based on how it conforms to the character of God. In other words, stealing a car is not wrong because it is not your car; it is wrong because it violates God's character.

But people cannot mention God anymore. We cannot even buy Christmas trees in some stores! Parents cannot spank their children, even if done in a loving manner. And we cannot mention God and science in the same sentence. Children are taught that they are an accident of nature, a byproduct of evolution. And yet they are supposed to treat other accidents of nature with respect. Evolution is the survival of the fitest, so why do we restrict these "survivalists" who think it will be easy to reproduce their DNA if they can steal an awesome ride to impress the girls? Children must learn that they were created by a loving God for a special purpose, and He created a way of life that is best - conforming to His character.

There. I am finished with my sermon. I only get to preach once this Sunday!

So to return to the original topic, the 17 year old was the one with the gun. And, sadly, he chose to take the life of another man for a BMW. Texas has lethal injection.

Jim

December 13, 2005, 08:12 PM	#28
Blackwater OPS Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,152	Leiberman is a demokrat who blames video games for youth violence. Also, I remember that when I was 10 I knew the difference between make belive and reality. So does my 5 year old niece, not that I think she should be playing doom 3. __________________ "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell Died 9/1/2005 and the best DS ever MSG Matthew Ritz Died 11.23.2005 matthewritz.com For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know. (\__/) (='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny! (")_(")

December 13, 2005, 11:04 PM	#30
Brian D. Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 230	I try to keep in mind that one Alphonse Capone was out terrorizing, assaulting, and killing folks as early as age 13 or 14, according to one or more biographers. He was part of an urban ethnic youth gang, and murder for hire, or as part of a robbery, paid better than more petty types of crime. Apparently a few of his less famous contemporaries did the same thing, as did the gangsters of 10, 20, or 80 years later. Many got an equally early start on that path in life. Guess what I'd done if I'd been that car salesman in Texarkana? __________________ "...give me a Rohrbaugh." --Jeff OTMG, 6/22/04. Hmm, that's probably the only way I'd get one, at least until CDNN has a closeout sale like on those Autauga .32s..

December 16, 2005, 03:52 AM	#34
gdeal Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 748	Threat I don't think car salesman should be packing. Yes I could shoot anyone that had a loaded weapon pointing at me. But what are you going to do?

December 16, 2005, 06:57 PM	#39
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I hate to go off topic about this but this thought is related to the thread... So what do we do about these messed up kids? Do we try them as adults regardless of what terrible stuff has happened to them during their childhood to make them these monsters? Do we try their parents for not teaching them better? I'm sure there are some messed up kids with good parents that just don't know how to control them. I have cousins by marriage that were adopted by my wife's uncle and aunt. They have some serious issues even though they were never abused (A little spoiled maybe but never abused). One of them has ADHD and a myriad of other problems. The other is smart af a fox and crafty as one too. This is a really tough situation. Is it possible to rehabilitate these kids or does sending them to juvenile detention centers just harden them and surround them with more messed up kids. There probably is no right answer for this but I really don't buy the fact that these kids don't know right from wrong. Maybe their reality is somewhat warped but I just don't buy the "I didn't know any better" BS. If a kid points a gun at me, I guess I will have to default to my basic self preservation mode. If I can disarm him, I will do so. If I can't... well, I guess I'll have to do what I'll have to do. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

December 20, 2005, 11:47 PM	#44
RevJim Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, TX Posts: 104	Update Last week, I heard an update on the murder of the car salesman. The 17 year old apparently bragged to some friends about the details of the event. They say the salesman pleaded with the 17 year old not to shoot him, since it wasn't even his car and he would let the 17 year old have it. The 17 year old responded, "Dude, it's a BMW!" And then he shot the salesman. Yes, it seems like parenting plays a huge role. We do seem to be born with a nature bent on evil and we need someone (parents, grandparents, the Village) to drive it out of us. But there are so many things that keep parents from doing it. When you take away moral absolutes, then you are left to argue your own personal beliefs, and they are usually selfishly motivated. If there is no God, then why is it all that wrong to shoot someone over a car? So more than good parenting, we really need a return to the concept that each of us will one day give an account of our lives to our Creator. Children must learn that there are consequences to every action, either good or bad. They must learn that an action is not right or wrong because of the consequence, however; it is right or wrong based on how it conforms to the character of God. In other words, stealing a car is not wrong because it is not your car; it is wrong because it violates God's character. But people cannot mention God anymore. We cannot even buy Christmas trees in some stores! Parents cannot spank their children, even if done in a loving manner. And we cannot mention God and science in the same sentence. Children are taught that they are an accident of nature, a byproduct of evolution. And yet they are supposed to treat other accidents of nature with respect. Evolution is the survival of the fitest, so why do we restrict these "survivalists" who think it will be easy to reproduce their DNA if they can steal an awesome ride to impress the girls? Children must learn that they were created by a loving God for a special purpose, and He created a way of life that is best - conforming to His character. There. I am finished with my sermon. I only get to preach once this Sunday! So to return to the original topic, the 17 year old was the one with the gun. And, sadly, he chose to take the life of another man for a BMW. Texas has lethal injection. Jim

December 15, 2005, 07:01 PM	#31
donglock26 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2001 Posts: 186	The "Village" is a lousy parent.

December 16, 2005, 02:13 AM	#33
Glock 31 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Posts: 541	+1

December 16, 2005, 05:21 PM	#36
threefivesevenmag Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 406	I work with behaviorally disturbed children on a daily basis. Children develop cognitively and socially at different rates. We have 5th graders that have the mental abilities and associations than a "normal" 3 or 4 year old more than likely possesses. I have seen children do horrible things to themselves, adults, peers, and even lash out towards me. I have seen an 8 year old try to slash another classmate's throat with a pair of scissors. He was mad because the other child had apparently taken a playing card of his. Honestly, some of the things these children witness or are a part of is terrible. Some are sexually abused, foster parented, beaten regularly, starved, witness murders in their family, and probably have mild mental disabilities. I do not condone their actions, but I understand where they come from. It is a very sad part of our society. The main problem I believe is the parents. They are not capable of handling themselves, let alone a growing child that might have cognitive delays or other physical problems. They live in abusive environments. Their homes are falling apart and there is no adult presence whatsoever. Sometimes there are 12 kids raising each other. It's horrible and can cause terrible mental issues, violence issues, and a general distaste for human life. It is bothering to me that these young kids will grow up and not really be a part of society. I personally know teachers whose students have murdered people, raped women and children, and basically become outlaws. In our schools today we have sexual assaults in elementary and middle school age groups. It's sickening. You try to help them day by day, week by week, but often it might not work. When the kids grow up they turn to violence because that is what they know. Bad parents=bad kids. No way around it. This has always been a problem, but I believe with a more encroaching media and much more "PC" ways of handling education, our youths look more terrible than ever. All I can say is, kids are capable of terrible, terrible things. Do what you have to do to stay alive. You can think about "what-if" for the rest of your life.

December 16, 2005, 06:40 PM	#38
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Rev. Jim As Christians, you and I both understand the concept of Original Sin. It's doesn't happen after your 18, it comes with you at birth inherited from fallen Adam. That includes 12 year olds and 1 year olds.

December 17, 2005, 03:23 AM	#40
Glock 31 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Posts: 541	Doug, I am also a Christian and understand that we are all born into sin. But I don't see how that affects children in a way that makes them predisposed to evil actions. Evil, like good is a part of us all. What brings out either side is as three five seven put it, positive or negative parenting. Garbage in, garbage out. Although I certainly don't believe that in every bad kid is a good kid waiting to come out. Once a kid has been taught things one way or another, it's practically impossible to unlearn him/her from those things. I seem to remember that our justice system was much more harsher on parents when their kids under 18 broke laws than it is today. Presumably the reasoning was a common sense one. If the kid is bad, it is due to bad parenting, therefore the parents have to suffer the price. Nowadays though I notice more and more kids being tried as adults even under the age of 18. Does this mean the laws have changed?

December 17, 2005, 07:55 AM	#42
youp Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: south of Canada, eh? Posts: 438	Shoot a 12 year old? If need be. Car salesman packing? His or her choice while in compliance with the law. The parents fault maybe yes, maybe no. In the late 70's I had the opportunity to tour the Middle East compliments of Uncle Sam. There was little crime. It was supposed to be dangerous in the Pakistani slums of Bandar Abas, Iran. I got turned around and ended up lost there and I am still here and no one took anything from me. I was always aware of my surroundings, compliments of a buddy from Chicago that grew up that way and taught me. The bottom line is we as a free society have come too far from our founding principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In all societies that I am aware of if you cannot live within the rules you are out cast. We have become too liberal in what we consider a rehabilitatable person. There was no crime in that era of Islam because there was swift and complete punishment. I do not remember the day of the week, but Saudi Arabia had a public execution day, weekly. If you stole they cut your hand off. Your right hand. Adultery? It was your head. I am not advocating an adoption of Islamic Law in this country, although Islamic crime and punishment law is not too far from Old Testament Law. An eye for an eye. There will an accounting some day, but no one should have to live in fear of these heartless little kids. And society should not be held in hostage, an incorrigable should be removed from society regardless of the age.

December 18, 2005, 01:15 AM	#43
Glock 31 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Posts: 541	I think I have to agree with youp on this one. Overall whether or not it was the parent's fault or the kid just turned out to be a worthless little demon, harsh and strict punishment would ensure a cessation to any repeat offenses. I agree our justice system, in some respects, has become decadent and weak. Radical reforms are necessary, including in my opinion, new supreme justices that serve only several year terms rather than life terms. New eyes and new opinions may get some of the more unnecessary laws on the books taken out. Such as laws saying you can't eat an ice cream cone and ride a donkey on a Sunday, take them out, and create new ones along the lines of like, you kill someone, you get the needle. Or you kill someone, you get life and hard labor to pay for your own housing and upkeep.