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Old December 16, 2005, 04:14 AM   #1
Glock 31
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Pizza guy pounded

On 14Dec05, last night, in Gallup, New Mexico which is a two hour drive from where I live, a Papa John's pizza driver was delivering an order to a gas station. He barely got out of the car when he was punched from behind and then recieved a vicious blow to his left eye. Four male subjects driving a black fire bird proceeded to beat the living snot out of him, steal his money, his car, and the pizzas. The car was found earlier today I don't remember where.

Later that night I saw the pictures of him on the news, his eye looked worse than any other black eye I have ever seen before.

I myself deliver pizzas for Dominos and I keep my Glock 31 and a Taurus Titanium TI .38special in the car when I go out on runs. I can't carry them on my person in uniform so the Glock stays in the folds of a blanket on the passenger seat and the Taurus goes in my jacket pocket if I feel the delivery is in a dangerous area. Otherwise it goes in with the Glock. I would rather carry it in my jacket against company policy, rather than die for some pizzas. Now unlike the guy in Gallup, when I go to gas station deliveries, I don't get out of the car until i'm sure the surroundings are safe and until I have a good look at the people I am meeting. If I had been in his position, following my routine of things might have enabled me to see the attack before it was too late. And since there were four bad guys to the one good guy, disparity of force would have certainly been an acceptable justification to employ deadly force. The issue is had I done that, I would have been fired immediately after the incident for having a gun while working for Domino's.

One, does anyone else see anything wrong with that? And two, what buisness is it of Domino's or Papa John's what we carry in our cars? In New Mexico, your car is an extension of your home, and therefore you can carry anything you want in it in any fashion. Yet I would still be fired just the same.

Just venting my fear and frustration over this incident.
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Old December 16, 2005, 05:06 AM   #2
youp
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I work construction and many of the plants that we go into now have very restrictive gun possession policies. Like have a gun go home...forever. That is a gun in your locked car and in a public access parking lot to boot. You will find the NRA is currently waging war on these policies.

I would rather lose a job than have someone whip me for a few bucks and a pizza. I think you are within your Constitutional Rights to carry. I think you would be making a mistake by not carrying. I think pizza companies are deliberately putting you in harms way, I am sure less punks would bother pizza people if they knew there could be lethal force involved. I think I will eat more spaghetti.
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Old December 16, 2005, 05:46 AM   #3
Bud Helms
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Just remember, defending yourself is more than carrying a handgun. The description of the incident sounds like the goblins got the jump on the delivery guy. Once they were on him and having their way, his situation was difficult to overcome. Theoretically, I suppose he could have had a handgun concealed on his front seat also.

Moving to Tactics & Training.
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Old December 16, 2005, 05:48 AM   #4
Sir William
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I know pizza delivery drivers DON'T speed but, what if you are and the LEO wants to look around your car? Pizza delvery drivers have been known to deliver drugs as well as pizza. If the LEO has the desire, would the two weapons result in your being fired as well as felony CCW charges? What is your states advice as to where a firearm can and cannot be kept? Jacket pocket? Do you have a CCW? Is that a felony if you are caught? I think you should update your resume. Find another job.
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Old December 17, 2005, 02:59 AM   #5
Glock 31
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Well as far as I know, I have never personally heard of drug dealing pizza dudes, but nothing surprises me these days. The state's law on carrying in the car is as I stated before. The car is an extension of your home, therefore, barring some indecent exposure laws, you can do in your car what you do in your home. You can conceal all the guns you want in your car provided you have the legal right to own them. You do need a permit to carry concealed on your person, and I am about to obtain such a permit. I have been pulled over on several occasions for various minor traffic violations and have not received any grief about my guns on any occasion. They ran the numbers on my colt once, but since it came back to me, nothing further happened.
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Old December 17, 2005, 03:18 AM   #6
Twycross
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It looks like this guy would have been helped much more by being aware of his surroundings than he would have been by any gun. Perhaps a firearm would have helped, but as has been said, he seems to have been taken by sursprise.
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Old December 17, 2005, 06:07 AM   #7
Solomon Kane
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I've delievered pizza in three different towns and this is a fear of every driver. to mkae it worse, I've never worked for a company that didn't expressly forbid carrying any means to defend yourself.

Quote:
Well as far as I know, I have never personally heard of drug dealing pizza dudes, but nothing surprises me these days.
The last pizza job I had, I worked with just such a person. He would deliver a single $15.99 pizza and come back with a $100+ tip. It wasn't subtle.

Quote:
It looks like this guy would have been helped much more by being aware of his surroundings than he would have been by any gun. Perhaps a firearm would have helped, but as has been said, he seems to have been taken by sursprise.
While I agree with what you're saying, there can be mitigating circumstances. If you work in a place that caters to a high crime, but highly populated minority area, you have to deliver to the place no matter how dangerous. People will sue the company out of business if you don't. Often this place will be a place with shadows to hide in that you can't see through no matter how hard you try. There was one place that I frequently delivered to that had a long hedge that I couldn't park away from without putting myself way too far away from my car and thus in an even more dangerous spot. I was always ready for someone to attack, but my warning time would have been minimal if it happened.

Thankfully, I never got robbed, but others I worked with weren't so lucky.
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Old December 17, 2005, 11:19 AM   #8
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The pizza places around here have gotten to the point where you pay over the phone with a credit/debit card. No checks or cash change hands at the delivery site. Only the pizza. Also, all of the places have their own pizza cars w/lo jack (actually that on-star deal), if the pizza person doesn't show back to work within a limited amount of time they call on-star to find out where the car is at (and if it's on the approved route that they are given to deliver to the address).

The drivers are also limited to only having their DL's in the car (no cash, no wallet) and a company cell which they have spread the news to all areas of their polices.

It's not worth it, not even to a druggie, to hold up a pizza person just for the pizza and then go to jail for felony assault or armed robbery. They are generally left alone.

Fast food delivery is a very dangerous job. They have to go to any place within their delivery area or the company faces charges of discrimination. Some places that are near bad parts of town have a no delivery policy (that is why you see *Delivery where available* in the commercials).

And I agree that the person was mostly in condition white, which these people can't afford. They must stay in at least yellow in most areas and orange in others.

Wayne
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Old December 17, 2005, 11:29 AM   #9
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Employer restrictions

Today, employers are much more afraid of financial liability from a lawsuit than they are about their employees safety.

A few years ago at one of the NAVISTAR sites a disgruntled ex employee entered one of the factories and killed several people. A couple of weeks later one of the mahogany row employees asked me how I thought the incident could have been avoided. I told him the minimum to have prevented it was to have trained Armed Guards instead of lookers at the plant entrances. He was shocked that I was even thinking of having a gun on the premises under anyone's control.

It goes along with the cut benefits, reduce vacations, eliminate .....whatever mentality. They look only at the BOTTOM LINE. Perhaps, if some court will find the employer liable with a good financial compensation for families of those murdered while employed under their care things might change. It will only be due to financial considerations ... not because they care about their employees lives.
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Old December 17, 2005, 12:53 PM   #10
Ares45
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It's up to you but I'd rather lose my job than be put in the hospital or killed.

As far as I'm aware your employer cannot legally tell you not to carry a gun on your person or in your personal vehicle on public property. If you are driving their vehicle or on their property then that's a different story.

If it were me I'd carry anyway. Pizza guys and pharmacy delivery guys are always getting jacked. You'll get fired if you deploy the weapon but it beats being a cripple for the rest of your life. I bet you could find employment at any of the dozen other delivery stores in town anyways.

Other alternatives are pepper spray and a collapsable baton.

On the other hand, if you object to the policy in writing and then get your tail whooped you can sue and retire.
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Old December 17, 2005, 02:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
On the other hand, if you object to the policy in writing and then get your tail whooped you can sue and retire.
If you live through it....
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Old December 17, 2005, 04:35 PM   #12
OneInTheChamber
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WOw, i have a new respect for pizza guys. I never realized the threat they come under.

Stay safe

Chase

"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six"
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Old December 17, 2005, 05:39 PM   #13
youp
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I believe that the pizza delivery job is now the most dangerous job in the US, surpassing Alaskan fishermen and lumberjacks. It is a pretty sad state of affairs.
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Old December 17, 2005, 06:59 PM   #14
delta58
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I work for a power company in Florida and co. policy prohibits the carrying of firearms on co. property. I am called out at all times of the day or night and as typical of power plants in rural areas this one is at the end of a 5 mile road. They will allow you to park outside the gate and walk in and sometimes the guard will put it in the safe in the guard shack ( which is what I usually do at night). Some of our sister companies have trained security that are usually competent, ex military etc, but most of our guards are second job guys like retirees etc they are armed and mean well but would be no match for a trained adversary. There is a bill being propsed in the Fl. legislature that is similar to the one in Ok. that prohibits companies from barring guns if stored in accordance with applicable laws. Companies should be made to realize that there is liability when they prevent employees the legal right to self defense.
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Old December 17, 2005, 08:51 PM   #15
Mike in VA
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Companies should be made to realize that there is liability when they prevent employees the legal right to self defense.
Big +1 on that, but what's the real likelihood of an employee prevailing under such circumstances. If "no weapons" is a condition of emplyment, I suspect you're pretty much screwed. Better to lose the job than your life, I'm of the "don't ask, don't tell-" persuasion myself -
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Old December 17, 2005, 11:40 PM   #16
steve154
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A few days ago two 15 year olds attempted an armed robbery of a pizza dude in the city I work in. They called in the order to be delivered two houses up from where they actually were. When Pizza guy pulls up they run upto the car and point a black automatic at the guy gansta style. Pizza guy figures he is about to die anyways and decides to fight back. He throws the door open into the gunman and knocks him off balance and into the two feet of snow on the ground. He commences to administering an ass whoopin to both of the punks. They flee down the block. Coppers show up and followed foot prints in the snow right back to the house they were at and recovered a CO2 pellet pistol. . The screwed up part is that the parents of the 2 animals actually came in and tried to have the guy arrested for beating the lovely little children down. Needless to say they were promptly advised that they are lucky they are not planning a double funeral. Pizza dude 2, jackasses 0
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Old December 18, 2005, 01:25 AM   #17
Glock 31
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Lol, hoorah pizza dude. It may not work in all situations but I agree, if your gonna go, take'em with you.
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Old December 18, 2005, 01:36 AM   #18
stratus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 31
I can't carry them on my person in uniform so the Glock stays in the folds of a blanket on the passenger seat and the Taurus goes in my jacket pocket if I feel the delivery is in a dangerous area.
Yeah... This is just me, but I'd probably keep that taurus in my jacket pocket regardless of the neighborhood. I mean, I wouldn't like... neglect to fasten my seat belt if I thought the freeway wasn't dangerous, you know?

Also, sensop makes a great point about self-defense being more than just having a handgun on one's person, but I'm sure that most people who come to this site, through educating themselves or through experience, know to do that - but I also feel that some of us put the idea of being armed ahead of the idea of being aware of one's own surroundings. Awareness should always come first, but preferably, awareness coupled with a handgun of some kind is a very copacetic solution.
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Old December 18, 2005, 01:38 AM   #19
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Minimum wage going no where job

Dude, duh let them fire U. It's not like we are talking about some kind of career position or anything.
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Old December 18, 2005, 01:49 AM   #20
Glock 31
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I don't rely on the pizza job for financial stability. As of now, my primary job is a night auditor/desk clerk at a local hotel. Basically this is my schedule;

Thurs. - Sun.
5-10pm Pizza Del.
11-07am Desk clerk
07-04pm Sleep

Mon. and Wed.
6:30-8:30pm Martial Arts
11-07am Desk Clerk
07-04pm Sleep

Tue.
5-10pm Pizza Del.
10pm - 6:30pm Wed. My time

I will be starting a third job delivering o2 and home medical supplies to patients for Apria Healthcare. It will be a $10-11/hr. job so it will take priority and I will also be on call for them some days.

The hotel job, though dangerous in it's own rights, is my relaxation of the day. Afterall, when else do I find time to visit this site. The pizza job is my fun cause I really enjoy the people I work with and I love blasting my music and driving for a living. Plus if you have a sign on your car, the cops don't really bother you about speeding as long as it's within reason. I will try to hold down all three, but I don't know what my new schedule will be like with the new one. Nor do I know their stance on concealed carry.
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Old December 18, 2005, 05:32 AM   #21
Samuel2001
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You must be under 30 to burn them candles on both ends like that! With a new 3rd job and all. Probably aint married either!

I run a shop during the day, come home crunch numbers, play with my two kids for a while, make small talk with the Mrs. and CRASH. I don't think I have it in me to have three jobs and still hold down the fort at home!

I guess with two of your jobs you have to grow eyes on the back of your head, and be extra alert at all times.

Good luck with your new venture! And rememer its better to be tried by twelve, than it is to be carried by six!
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Old December 18, 2005, 06:23 AM   #22
BillCA
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While it's a lot of buck$ for someone earning $11/hr, you might consider getting a tactical flashlight, such as a Sure-Fire. You want a very bright light for three reasons - 1) illuminate those dark walkways and bushes where the goblins try to hide. 2) Dazzle their eyes with a bright 1 second burst of light to give you an advantage, 3) the light in your hand supports your fist if you use it against an aggressor.

Realizing that carrying pizzas and a flashlight could tie up both your hands, get in the habit of having a flashlight in your hand under the pizza boxes which you carry with your weak hand, thus leaving your gun hand free to reach the firearm. If threatened, let the pizzas fall and illuminate your target(s).
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Old December 18, 2005, 07:47 AM   #23
Glock 31
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Lol,

Samuel2001,
23 and single, you guessed it.

BillCA,

Great minds think alike. I already carry a surefire E2D Executive Defender. Great little light, great little fist pack, great face gougher with the edged fins around the bulb.
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Old December 18, 2005, 03:44 PM   #24
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Tip your pizza guy :)

I had delivered pizzas for about 2 years for a local chain. They had rules against their drivers carrying firearms for personal protection. Luckily I worked for a privately owned store, and not a corporate store so the owner/boss was pretty lax about the rule (especially considering some of the runs he would send us on).

Those living in Southeast Michigan are well aware of Michigan Ave and the problems/crime associated with many of the areas located along the Ave. Majority of the time only the male drivers were sent on those runs after dark, and we never took runs that far south after midnight. During my 2 years I only had one attempted robbery which ultimately lead to me getting my cpl. Fortunately for me, and any would be assailant, I never had an incident while carrying on the job.

My two dumbies boarded the same elevator I was on and tried to attack me. Im a pretty large fellow, around 6'4" with a large frame and pleanty of meat. Neither of them were even pushing 6', and both under 200lbs. Growing up in and around Detroit you learn to defend yourself at a pretty young age, and neither of them were carrying weapons (or at least didnt attempt to use them). Long story short I was able to knock the bigger of the two out cold, and subdue the other while someone boarding on the first floor alerted the apt complex security and police. Worst part was the customer I had just delivered didnt even tip me

After that incident I signed up for a CPL course the following weekend, and my Glock 30 never left my side once Wayne County finally got around to sending my license out. I consider myself to be pretty fortunate to only have 1 incident in the delivery area I had to work in. One of our drivers, and a close friend of mine was cold cocked in a parking lot with a pistol and robbed. Thats when I decided to find another line of work, it just wasnt worth the threat involved.
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Old December 18, 2005, 04:01 PM   #25
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I'm in the fast food biz too and running deliveries into crappy areas really suck. I had a driver of mine almost get his necklace swiped. He is the pretty athletic typs and just stuck the kid in his face. I used to take the deliveries into the bad areas myself since I was armed. Miami is kind of weird cebasue you can go from a super rich and ritzy area to the bowels of Miami by crossing just a few blocks. I drive with my gun at low ready when I go to those areas at night. I've had pushers come up to my window asking me if I wanted to buy some drugs. I just held up the food and said that "I'm doing the selling around here".

My recommendation is that you find a safer job if you can. Learn to cut out a few unnecessary items and leave that job. Either that, find something else that is safer. Its not worth it to work your tail off if you won't be able to enjoy it. As mentioned, your employer is more interested in covering their butt than yours. Even if you do defend yourself, they will probably get sued and you will most definitely get fired.
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