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Old January 27, 2021, 08:20 AM   #51
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Muzzle velocity, penetration, muzzle energy, bitch-slappiness; take your pick.
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:30 AM   #52
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No one is testing in water. Or phone books.

I don't hate old bullets. You don't seem to understand what old bullets need to work: FPS.

New bullets don't.

For example, the brand new (summer 2020) Federal .380 DEEP (updated Hydra Shok) outperforms some of the 9mm hollow points on Lucky Gunners list. DEEP isn't the fake "+P" 380 either. REALLY thick copper jacket and spear pointed lead that doesn't expand inside. Brilliant idea to overcome 380's problem of lack of penetration without controlled expansion.

So focusing on FPS today on current Gold Dot and HST makes no sense. Handgun rounds are not even in the same universe of FPS to generate rifle like damage. FPS in handgun rounds exists to expand the bullet. That's it until someone comes up with a 3000fps handgun round.
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JERRYS. View Post
Underwood. 135gr for summer, 165 for winter, 180-200 solids for the woods.

^This^
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:59 AM   #54
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What more do you want/think Gold Dot or HST can do?

Directly from the manufacturer:

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/download...sertPoster.pdf
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/download...dDotPoster.pdf

This is the bullet bible out side of manufacturer testing. Roberts says:
"PISTOL AMMUNITION

Velocity seems to be the "holy grail" for a lot of folks when they decide to choose their handgun ammo, and they tend to gravitate towards +P or even +P+ loads. As mentioned above, velocity is not always good or useful. This is something to keep in mind when deciding between a "fast" 127gr +P+ or 147gr load in 9mm for example. Another factor is the ability to control the follow-up shot. If you have two loads which both perform about the same, you might consider going to the slow/heavy bullet due to the fact that the slower load is more easily controlled. Consider the data from Winchester in regards to their 9mm 127gr +P+ load (1250 fps) versus the 147gr load (990 fps) in the Ranger-T line:"

to conclude his thought, the +P+ Ranger T typically doesn't expand at all. The 990FPS non +P Ranger T is the only bullet that is equal to HST/Gold Dot.

No high FPS 115gr 9mm made the list. Only one 115gr 9mm, a normal FPS all copper Barnes/Cor-Bon bullet.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/sel...mozTocId759557

It isn't just FPS.
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Old January 27, 2021, 10:29 AM   #55
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Wildcat, it seems you just want to fight. I originally stated that in the context of the 10mm vs the 40 S&W, the original subject...... That 200 fps was significant. I stand by my opinion.
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Old January 27, 2021, 12:05 PM   #56
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Not at all.

I'm saying, no. Based on real data,Gold Dot or HST does just fine even at 1000fps.

Without testing, in any story, the story teller doesn't know if a smaller/less fps/ or even FMJ wouldn't do the exact same thing.
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Old January 27, 2021, 12:41 PM   #57
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I'm saying, no. Based on real data,Gold Dot or HST does just fine even at 1000fps.
Does what just fine?

So, if 3000 fps is great why is velocity not important below that? Does it matter with 22 and not 45? Your theory does not hold water.
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Old January 27, 2021, 01:26 PM   #58
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Yes. Just fine. Opens fully and nearly beyond needed penetration.

The super slow 150gr 9mm HST at 900fps expands larger than all but 2 10mm rounds on the Luckygunner test while hitting 17" penetration.

The 9mm in their test is out of a compact and the 10mm is being shot out of a Glock 20.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/


You've got the data right in front of your, from the company making Gold Dot and HST. Your choice to ignore it.
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Old January 27, 2021, 08:49 PM   #59
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Yes. Just fine. Opens fully and nearly beyond needed penetration.

The super slow 150gr 9mm HST at 900fps expands larger than all but 2 10mm rounds on the Luckygunner test while hitting 17" penetration.

The 9mm in their test is out of a compact and the 10mm is being shot out of a Glock 20.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/

Quote:
You've got the data right in front of your, from the company making Gold Dot and HST. Your choice to ignore it.
How does it work on violent felons? Jello don't shoot back.
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:47 PM   #60
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Gold Dot replaced Federal 9BPLE +P+ like 20 years ago (out in 1991)...

HST is taking the LE contracts like that is its purpose.

Gold Dot G2 pre 2019 crapped the bed, but new 2020 G2 outperforms Hornady XTP Duty that took the FBI contract.

Yeah. HST/Gold Dot are the round to have.

All with non nuclear FPS.
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Old January 28, 2021, 10:52 PM   #61
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Gold Dot replaced Federal 9BPLE +P+ like 20 years ago (out in 1991)...
The Border Patrol used 9BPLE in the 9mm until transitioning to the 40 S&W in 1996.

Quote:
HST is taking the LE contracts like that is its purpose.
The BP also uses HST. We used the 155 @ 1200 fps for decades and it worked wonderfully.

Quote:
Yeah. HST/Gold Dot are the round to have.
No doubt.

Quote:
All with non nuclear FPS.
Define nuclear FPS.........

https://www.speer.com/ammunition/han...9-54000GD.html

Not too shabby for a 200 GRN bullet.
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Old January 29, 2021, 03:13 AM   #62
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logic and reasoning are dangerous habits

A 147g 9x19 is just a smaller 38 Special.



While static testing is wonderfully comparative, actual street results prove efficacy.

(I still have someathat 155g R-P on me shelf, and some Triton, and some CorBon, and some other stuff.....)




Quote:
Define nuclear FPS.........
My 115g R-P JHP at 1415fps?
My 135g Nosler at 1300fps from short Glocks?
My my my others....
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Old January 29, 2021, 02:13 PM   #63
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Read up on "hydrostatic shock" (the wide parts in jello testing) from this very forum and we see 2,300FPS is the start of rifle level damage. No magnum handgun load is even near that FPS. So rifle like damage simply isn't a thing in handgun loads. Magnum level damage is coming from the actual bullet design.
https://www.google.com/search?q=thef...ine.com&client

Next. Learn about bullet design and purpose from those making the bullet (not reloaders) (bonded/non bonded/ controlled/limited expansion).

The only modern bullet that could benefit from higher FPS without questions of failure is the limited expansion Hornady XTP because it is designed to be controlled limited expansion. But again, it is hitting perfect penetration in factory Hornady, Horandy American Gunner, and Hornady Custom. So at higher FPS loaded XTP could be a hunting round in theory for a hunt where handgun performance was either insured to begin with or at least questionable.

No one was questioning 10mm can go higher FPS. Does it matter? The variation between 20grs between even 9mm and 40s&w shows it does not. The factory data does not show 10mm hot loaded is gaining you a single advantage because current HST/Gold Dot is hitting exactly what you want it to do.

If Vista factory 10mm is loaded to 40S&W levels, you have a great round. Because you had a great load at 40S&W in that load too. Also, some 9mm HST factory loads are hitting nearly or better as 40S&W HST.

And we arrive at the conclusion: what were we expecting or what would be different from a hotter loaded bullet that is factory designed and proven to expand and penetrate perfectly at normal FPS factory loads?
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Old January 29, 2021, 09:42 PM   #64
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Quote:
Read up on "hydrostatic shock" (the wide parts in jello testing) from this very forum and we see 2,300FPS is the start of rifle level damage. No magnum handgun load is even near that FPS. So rifle like damage simply isn't a thing in handgun loads. Magnum level damage is coming from the actual bullet design.
https://www.google.com/search?q=thef...ine.com&client

Next. Learn about bullet design and purpose from those making the bullet (not reloaders) (bonded/non bonded/ controlled/limited expansion).
I don't know where hydrostatic shock comes into this discussion. I did not mention it.

I have been at this game for about 40 years. We disagree, which is OK. No need to be condescending.
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Old January 30, 2021, 03:28 PM   #65
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I don't think it's a matter of being condescending, just a disagreement, as you say.

The mindset/conclusion is, for what it's worth, the logical progression of the model that seems to dominate LE ammunition selection currently, and for the past few decades.

Fackler emphatically decried the idea that energy was meaningful in handguns, emphasizing (overemphasizing?) the idea that only penetration and expansion/diameter meant anything in terms of handgun stopping power. U.S. LE bought in heavily, as did many others.

I don't think that he, nor his followers, realized where that line of reasoning would end up.

If expansion/diameter and penetration are really all that matter, then if you can get adequate penetration with adequate diameter/expansion with a 500fps projectile, it follows that the same penetration and diameter/expansion with 1000fps buys you nothing.

The issue was, IMO, that Fackler was pushing back against the idea of kinetic energy being a big contributor in handgun stopping power and he pushed back too hard. You can't blame people for following his teachings and taking them to their logical conclusion--especially when LE, for the most part, seems to still be enamored with his philosophy.
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Old January 30, 2021, 05:00 PM   #66
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Exactly. I am disagreeing that a "full" fps 10mm does anything better than what a Federal HST 10mm 200gr 1,130fps or a factory load Gold Dot at 1,100FPS already does. If a bullet fully expands and penetrates, more isn't better. "Better" can't even be defined.

The round isn't expanding more.

The round already hits deep penetration where no one is arguing for greater than 19".

A 10mm will NEVER hit rifle level FPS. So higher FPS isn't doing extra damage alone.

An expanding hollow point isn't going to defect off bone less because of higher FPS.

In fact, you're risking bullet failure or even too fast expansion leading to failed penetration.


That said, I like shooting 357mag at the range. Love it. Significant feeling of fun and power.

But I'm not going to pretend any 357mag load I can pick up is performing better than my 9mm 147+P HST from even my small P365 short barrel.
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Old January 30, 2021, 05:04 PM   #67
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I agree John. My big problem with that philosophy is that it is misleading. If it were true then people receiving penetrating wounds would all act in a similar manner. Minus good shot placement people can soak up a lot of bullets, even with good shot placement people have shown great resilience.

Looking at police shootings,lots of people still take a lot of hits to stop them. The funny thing is us gun guys argue over such a small factor as the bullet/caliber/platform.

The reason I like "high energy" rounds is that they seem to work across the board more consistently.

My carry gun is a Dan Wesson LW commander in 9mm loader with standard pressure Gold Dots. Not what I would consider "high energy" but it shoots so good and Wilson mags give me 10+1.

These discussions are largely academic and entertaining until someones ego gets bruised.
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Old January 30, 2021, 05:12 PM   #68
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Exactly. I am disagreeing that a "full" fps 10mm does anything better than what a Federal HST 10mm 200gr 1,130fps or a factory load Gold Dot at 1,100FPS already does. If a bullet fully expands and penetrates, more isn't better. "Better" can't even be defined.

The round isn't expanding more.

The round already hits deep penetration where no one is arguing for greater than 19".

A 10mm will NEVER hit rifle level FPS. So higher FPS isn't doing extra damage alone.

An expanding hollow point isn't going to defect off bone less because of higher FPS.

In fact, you're risking bullet failure or even too fast expansion leading to failed penetration.


That said, I like shooting 357mag at the range. Love it. Significant feeling of fun and power.

But I'm not going to pretend any 357mag load I can pick up is performing better than my 9mm 147+P HST from even my small P365 short barrel.
Part of the disconnect is that to the Facklerites, anything that cannot be explained in the lab is dismissed. That is intellectually dishonest.

Full power 10mm loads do not cause bullets to fail. We are only talking about 200 more FPS. A little fragmentation with a SD load is actually a good thing, more wounding, more bleeding, faster incapacitation. That is why the 357 magnum was so good. I saw a lot of people shot with 38's and 357's, only difference being velocity. What a difference....

The 147 grain 9mm is the worst load for the caliber, unless you are using a suppressed carbine in special ops, in my opinion.
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Old January 30, 2021, 07:18 PM   #69
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For what it's worth, I agree that energy is not meaningless.

A bullet wound is a combination of a penetrating wound (like a stab wound) and blunt trauma (like getting hit with a fist, a club or a bat).

A very low energy bullet will emphasize the penetration aspect and there may be very little blunt trauma effect.

A higher-energy bullet will increase the blunt trauma effect.

Fackler correctly noted that the blunt trauma effect (the temporary cavity we see in freeze-frame or slow-motion gel shots) was not a consistent wounding factor in handgun wounds. If there's enough energy and if the bullet hits in the right organ, there can be some wounding effect, but a lot of the human body is pretty stretchy and it snaps back leaving only the equivalent of a bruise. The liver, kidneys, brain, spleen, tend not to stretch and if you get a temporary cavity in one of those organs, the effect can be lethal.

But instead of just leaving it there (saying it's not consistent), he tried to downplay even that effect and ended up swinging too hard towards the idea that in handguns, the ONLY wounding effect was the permanent wound channel.

That neglects the organs that don't stretch without tearing, but there's also more to stopping someone than just wounding them.

A penetrating injury may not be immediately obvious to a person who is under a lot of stress. It's not uncommon for stabbing victims to comment that they didn't realize they had been stabbed until they saw the knife, or saw the wound, or noted the bleeding.

Blunt trauma is a different story. When a person is slapped, they aren't likely to sustain an injury, but they will certainly know immediately that they have been slapped. You don't hear people say things like--"I didn't realize I had been slapped until I saw the red marks in the mirror." or "I didn't know he hit me with the bat until I saw the bruise." Blunt trauma of any significance is noticed immediately.

So while the penetration aspect of a bullet wound may be what puts someone in a hospital or in the ground, the blunt trauma effect (if it's significant) is likely what lets them know they've actually been shot. That's really important because one of the most significant factors in whether a person stops attacking/stops fighting is psychological. If a person doesn't know they've been shot, they are more likely to keep attacking, to keep fighting whereas if they realize they've been shot, they are likely to become more concerned with their wellbeing than with continuing an attack or continuing to fight.

IMO, these two things, the notification effect of the temporary cavity, and the injury in non-elastic tissue, are the two reasons that energy does matter, even in handguns. How much it matters depends on a lot of things.
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Old January 31, 2021, 07:51 AM   #70
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Right or wrong, well said.
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Old February 22, 2021, 10:13 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by corneileous View Post
I don’t know if these are old or new but they advertise a feet/ second of 1200 and 559 foot pounds of muzzle energy.


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Same great stuff just new labeling. Perfect for self defense, I bought 25 boxes of the old labeling for $9.98 a box from Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore just before the craziness. I guess that is when the new & improved box & label was released.
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