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Old March 28, 2018, 08:59 PM   #1
Rangerrich99
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Appendix carry vs Hip

I was just browsing around on YT and found this little video and thought it was interesting enough to bring here to TFL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6BfRc8s8ac

I've been toying around with the idea of appendix carry for a little while now, trying to think through the pros and cons and so forth and just thought this video addressed many of my concerns, and maybe those of some of you as well.

So, has anyone else made the transition from hip carry to appendix or vice versa? And if so, what are your thoughts?
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Old March 28, 2018, 09:47 PM   #2
cw308
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I carried IWB & OWB strong side 4 o'clock position 15 degree cant holster for many years . Appendix is the most comfortable an secure position for a weapon , appendix zero can't is the way l carry now . On any holster the trigger should be covered by the holster , can not practice enough drawing & reholster with finger off the trigger or bad things will happen . Guns and holster positions are safe when used properly. I like leather molded holsters with a reinforced opening an two belt one way snaps.
What firearm do you have ? I was writing for CC handguns .

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Old March 28, 2018, 10:43 PM   #3
Rangerrich99
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For the last two years my EDC has been a S&W M&P Shield9. Currently it spends most of the time in a N82 Tactical Original Compact holster at about the 2 or 2:30 position.

I recently ordered a Cherries low-ride appendix holster for it, as my one issue with wearing this set-up as an appendix carry is that it just rides too high to be really comfortable seated. Unfortunately this particular holster doesn't have the ability to adjust height or cant.

My winter EDC is a 1911 9mm in a Bravo Concealment holster that rides very well at 12 or 1:00, which is how I got started thinking about making appendix carry as a full-time thing. It would be nice if it rode just about a half in inch lower, but it's okay even while seated.
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Old March 29, 2018, 11:52 AM   #4
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I carried and taught at a cpl of the major shooting schools for almost 20years wearing my pistol on the firing side hip. I still start students there. After everyone has ingrained some trigger finger discipline, i offer appendix carry as an alternative. Its not for everyone. Body shape (or lack there of :-) is a big factor.

I personally always carry appendix (M&P 2.0 compact 9mm) for me it works the best of all positions

Understand, all things are trade offs. Nothing is perfect for everything. For my style of dress, everyday activities and so forth, appendix works best for me.
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:03 PM   #5
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Don't get your training from YouTube.
Where you put the holster is highly personal. A lot depends on how you're shaped though. Plus a certain amount of how dexterous you are. And how much you practice with where you put it.
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:12 PM   #6
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I have always carried a pancake with thumb break on my hip. Actually I keep the holster front at the back of my front pocket. I have been thinking of an inside the belt holster at least for wearing under a t-shirt. Now from the video it looked like to appendix carry all that was needed was the move the holster toward the front more. But it has always seemed to me that might get uncomfortable when your sitting! I;m pretty sure I wouldn't want to do that with my P-89 but might work with my Sheild c9. Interesting video to say the least. It did occur to me that one of the guy's did have a problem getting his gun into play with the appendix carry. Like he was hesitating pulling it out of the holster I assume trying to get a good grip? Anybody else have that problem? Also, I'm guessing getting a thumb break with an IWB holster ain't gonna happen? Still think I'm gonna try one!
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Old March 29, 2018, 02:49 PM   #7
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I feel appendix carry is the fastest draw also the best position to prevent someone from from grabbing your firearm . Comes down to what works best for you . Find a good holster .
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Old March 29, 2018, 04:22 PM   #8
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I enjoy carrying appendix because it is very concealable, it feels secure because it is right in front of me, and it is quick to deploy. However, I have gained like 50 lbs in the last couple years... yuck. Makes Appendix uncomfortable for ME because I sit all day and it digs in my gut.

SO... I've switched to more of a 3, 3:30 carry.

Once I become a beautiful butterfly again, I will likely switch back to appendix

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Old March 29, 2018, 06:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
Don't get your training from YouTube.
Where you put the holster is highly personal. A lot depends on how you're shaped though. Plus a certain amount of how dexterous you are. And how much you practice with where you put it.
Oh I agree about not using YT as a substitute for proper training. Though Rob Leatham's "Aiming is Useless!" was instrumental in improving my fundamentals, i.e., grip, recoil control, body cant, etc.

I started out three decades ago carrying at about the 4-4:30 position, which I found comfortable and relatively quick to access, but I found that if I bent over even half-way the gun printed pretty clearly. This prompted me to move the gun to about the 3-3:30 position about 10 years ago. This is a good position for me in all things except trying to draw with my support hand (I try to practice this in the event my right hand/arm is somehow unable to draw). I just don't have the dexterity to pull this off anymore, despite the fact that I've lost 30 lbs. about four years ago.

As I stated earlier, currently my gun rides at about the 2:30 position, but it rides too high in my current holster and it still prints in certain body positions. Which brought me to thinking about appendix carry a couple years ago.

At the range I've been playing around with an old OWB holster in the appendix position and I really like everything about it. Getting my new holster I believe will settle it once and for all. Of course if I put on 20 lbs. I probably won't like appendix carry very much, but I'm still putting in a fair amount of time at the gym to keep that from happening.

And i hear you about practicing. I practice my draw stroke at least 30 minutes every morning while waiting for and having my coffee, and another 30 minutes or so in the evening while watching SportsCenter. If I don't feel comfortable with things after a couple weeks of that, I'll probably decide to give up on the idea of appendix carry.
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Old March 29, 2018, 06:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
I have always carried a pancake with thumb break on my hip. Actually I keep the holster front at the back of my front pocket. I have been thinking of an inside the belt holster at least for wearing under a t-shirt. Now from the video it looked like to appendix carry all that was needed was the move the holster toward the front more. But it has always seemed to me that might get uncomfortable when your sitting! I;m pretty sure I wouldn't want to do that with my P-89 but might work with my Sheild c9. Interesting video to say the least. It did occur to me that one of the guy's did have a problem getting his gun into play with the appendix carry. Like he was hesitating pulling it out of the holster I assume trying to get a good grip? Anybody else have that problem? Also, I'm guessing getting a thumb break with an IWB holster ain't gonna happen? Still think I'm gonna try one!
Don F;

Early in the video the narrator states that the holster isn't designed for appendix carry at all; it's just a typical Kydex IWB holster meant for hip carry. That combined with the fact that a couple of those guys had never carried at the appendix position probably accounted for the hesitation we saw; improper design of the holster for appendix carry and not enough practice.

According to a couple people I know that carry appendix, and from the things I've read/seen, for comfort the gun needs to ride fairly low, lower even than what most people would carry at the hip. And of course, it's more comfortable if one isn't, ah, 'waist-line handicapped,' so to speak.

As for thumb-break appendix holsters, I don't know. I've only been looking for them for a couple months or so, so I haven't seen everything there is to see yet.
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Old March 30, 2018, 10:04 AM   #11
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Hmmm, I'm surprised how well appendix concealed for that big fella. Especially considering how much it printed for some of the "ab-privileged" individuals in the test. Doesn't work for me. I spend too much time sitting.
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Old March 30, 2018, 12:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Rangerrich99 View Post
I was just browsing around on YT and found this little video and thought it was interesting enough to bring here to TFL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6BfRc8s8ac

I've been toying around with the idea of appendix carry for a little while now, trying to think through the pros and cons and so forth and just thought this video addressed many of my concerns, and maybe those of some of you as well.

So, has anyone else made the transition from hip carry to appendix or vice versa? And if so, what are your thoughts?
It is pretty widely accepted that appendix carry is faster for most people the real question for me is it worth the risk? In the video that you linked to the group of shooters across the board were .15 seconds faster. So think about that... .15 of a second faster.

For me that is not worth the added risk and a second manual of arms. Too many NDs happen when someone is holstering or unholstering a gun. This is the reason lots of well known trainers like Hackthorn, Wilson & Vickers have banned it in their classes. It is not that they tell people not to carry that way but the number of times you unholster and reholster in a class really increases the chances of an ND. With strong side carry you are going to shoot yourself in the leg, hip or foot. With appendix you are going to shoot yourself in the balls and the possibly the femoral artery. Those are both going to be life changing. So for .15 of a second that is not worth it to me because in a statistically in real world defensive gun scenario .15 on the draw is not going to be what wins the day. I have no issue with people who believe otherwise and like appendix carry but this is the primary reason why I would not do it.

The second reason I do not carry appendix I carry different size and guns. I carry BHPs, 1911 Commander, CZ P01, Kahr CW9 etc... I want the to be in the same spot no matter what I am carrying. The only exception is a Ruger LCP which is pocket carried but only when on the belt carry is not possible. I cannot appendix carry a most of the guns in the carry rotation comfortably so it does not make sense for me to only carry say the CW9 that way.

I do understand that people like it and find it comfortable it is just not worth the added risk for me.
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Old March 30, 2018, 03:13 PM   #13
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Not to argue with anyone that mentioned it, but the appendix carry didn't reduce the draw stroke time by 0.15 seconds. It was an average of 0.15 seconds, which implies that for some of the shooters it was more than 0.15 seconds, just as for others it may have been less.

If it knocked say 0.25 seconds off of your drawstroke, would that be significant?

But I agree with you that there are definitely some safety concerns, which is why I'm still mulling it over. But I can't really examine the issue without at least spending some time using an appendix holster to accumulate my own data.

But thanks for your input, WVsig, I always read your posts with interest. Keep 'em coming. And everyone else as well.
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Old March 30, 2018, 03:43 PM   #14
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Not to argue with anyone that mentioned it, but the appendix carry didn't reduce the draw stroke time by 0.15 seconds. It was an average of 0.15 seconds, which implies that for some of the shooters it was more than 0.15 seconds, just as for others it may have been less.

If it knocked say 0.25 seconds off of your drawstroke, would that be significant?

But I agree with you that there are definitely some safety concerns, which is why I'm still mulling it over. But I can't really examine the issue without at least spending some time using an appendix holster to accumulate my own data.

But thanks for your input, WVsig, I always read your posts with interest. Keep 'em coming. And everyone else as well.
For me .25 or even .5 of a second would not matter. It would matter in a gun game but not in a real gunfight. It is not the first person to draw or even the first person to fire that wins a gunfight. Way too much emphasis is put on time and the quick draw mentality. IMHO

Here is a great video from Rob Pincus on the pros of appendix carry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hIvTTUARQc
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Old March 30, 2018, 03:47 PM   #15
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I appendix carry , may not be for everybody. First you have to have the proper AIWB holster zero cant , with a reasonable sized firearm . All together with a proper gun belt . I carry a Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 holster modified with a zero cant , the firearm is a 3" 1911 45acp . Belt is Kore Essentials EDC Belt. You need the right gear for any carry to work correctly , there's no short cuts if your going to carry a deadly weapon . If your worried about which carry position is more dangerous to carry , you need more training . Finger off the trigger only on when you want to destroy something . ND is a lame excuse ,only happens when you have your head up your , need I say more.
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Old March 30, 2018, 04:04 PM   #16
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I appendix carry , may not be for everybody. First you have to have the proper AIWB holster zero cant , with a reasonable sized firearm . All together with a proper gun belt . I carry a Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 holster modified with a zero cant , the firearm is a 3" 1911 45acp . Belt is Kore Essentials EDC Belt. You need the right gear for any carry to work correctly , there's no short cuts if your going to carry a deadly weapon . If your worried about which carry position is more dangerous to carry , you need more training . Finger off the trigger only on when you want to destroy something . ND is a lame excuse ,only happens when you have your head up your , need I say more.
This is simply not true NDs happen. If you handle guns enough you will have one go off eventually when you did not intend it to. It might just be a double down range. It might be reholstering. It might be while shooting on the move during a match ... A ND does not mean someone got hurt. It does not even mean property was damaged but simply the gun went off when you did not intend it to. Also a finger is not required to have a ND. Clothing, seat belts, other foreign objects can replace the "fingers" role in NDs.

Seasoned trainers and professionals shooters have had NDs. It does not mean they need more training. It does not mean they have their head up their butt as you allude to. It means they made a mistake that happened to involve a gun. Your statement shows your ignorance on the subject. It displays a naivety which undermines the point you are trying to make.

PS Did Mr. Sparks modify that SS for you or did you do it yourself? Seems like if you did it yourself you "cut a corner".
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Old March 30, 2018, 04:47 PM   #17
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Was waiting for you to chime in as usual . No excuse as far as I'm concerned for ND . Clothing , mistakes now who's naive . It's reality , your not carrying a cap gun . Sorry I made a mistake , if someone got heart or you put a hole in your self , sorry doesn't cut it . Maybe I'm being a hard ass , with that attitude , keep your distance from me.

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Old March 30, 2018, 05:04 PM   #18
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Was waiting for you to chime in as usual . No excuse as far as I'm concerned for ND . Clothing , mistakes now who's naive . It's reality , you not carrying a cap gun . Sorry I made a mistake , if someone got heart or you put a hole in your self , sorry doesn't cut it . Maybe I'm being a hard ass , with that attitude ,keep your distance from me.

Chris
Keep believing what you are preaching. I have no problem with that. You can carry any way you want. I have answered the OPs question giving posting why I don't carry appendix and then posting a video from Rob Pincus, you mention "training" so I assume you know who he is, advocating for appendix carry.

You seem to be really agitated for some reason. You seem to take discussion very personally. Just because I disagree with your choice of carry method does not mean I do not value you as a human being. I personally think you are being unrealistic in terms of NDs. That type of rigid inflexible mindset does not take into account reality. I am not making excuses for people who have had them but I have talked to people who had more training, were better shooters and gun handlers than me who have had one. Like I tried to illustrate NDs do not always result in destruction. More often then not if you have good gun handling skills they simply result in a surprise -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- just happened moment.

Murphy tells is that poop happens. His law does not discriminate. The law of avgs does not pick and choose. It simply calculates the odds. As for keeping my distance from you I am not sure what they means but I have no plans on getting any closer to you than necessary.

Please feel free to put me on ignore since my posts seem to bother you so much.

PS would still love to hear how Mr Sparks modified that SS for you.
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Old March 30, 2018, 05:22 PM   #19
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Will Do , as to your PS the double belt snaps they cut the rear snap at 1.5 the front at 1.75 worn with a 1.5 belt the holster angels forward making a zero cant , works well . Were Done.
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Old March 30, 2018, 05:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by WVsig View Post
For me .25 or even .5 of a second would not matter. It would matter in a gun game but not in a real gunfight. It is not the first person to draw or even the first person to fire that wins a gunfight. Way too much emphasis is put on time and the quick draw mentality. IMHO

Here is a great video from Rob Pincus on the pros of appendix carry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hIvTTUARQc
That's one of the videos that started me down this path actually.

And while I agree with you that for the vast majority of situations a quick draw probably isn't going to be a factor, aren't we always stressing the idea that we must be prepared for the worst possible situation? And couldn't one of those really bad situations necessarily involve the need to get your gun into the fight as rapidly as possible? I mean, yes the odds are extremely low that I might even get into a gunfight, ever. And that means that the odds of needing a quick draw-stroke are even that much lower. But it could happen, right?

And the reality is that my draw-stroke is pretty slow or average at best. I'm never going to be accused of being a fast draw guy. So it just seems to me (and I freely admit I might be wrong here) that to reduce the time it takes to get my gun working, knowing I'm not Quick-Draw Mcgraw, it might be in my best interest to look at a faster system.

Which is part of how I came to this point.

The other major reason I like the idea of appendix carry is the security. No one is going to reach into the front of my pants and grab my gun without me knowing about it, and if it did happen, I'd be able to use both arms to fend the attacker off. With hip carry the gun is just more exposed.

Here's another video from Rob Pincus that addresses appendix carry issues that I found interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCry48DLICo
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Old April 1, 2018, 01:04 PM   #21
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That's one of the videos that started me down this path actually.

And while I agree with you that for the vast majority of situations a quick draw probably isn't going to be a factor, aren't we always stressing the idea that we must be prepared for the worst possible situation? And couldn't one of those really bad situations necessarily involve the need to get your gun into the fight as rapidly as possible? I mean, yes the odds are extremely low that I might even get into a gunfight, ever. And that means that the odds of needing a quick draw-stroke are even that much lower. But it could happen, right?

And the reality is that my draw-stroke is pretty slow or average at best. I'm never going to be accused of being a fast draw guy. So it just seems to me (and I freely admit I might be wrong here) that to reduce the time it takes to get my gun working, knowing I'm not Quick-Draw Mcgraw, it might be in my best interest to look at a faster system.

Which is part of how I came to this point.

The other major reason I like the idea of appendix carry is the security. No one is going to reach into the front of my pants and grab my gun without me knowing about it, and if it did happen, I'd be able to use both arms to fend the attacker off. With hip carry the gun is just more exposed.

Here's another video from Rob Pincus that addresses appendix carry issues that I found interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCry48DLICo
I guess it is possible you could find yourself in a situation where you need that extra .25 of a second but when I think about the odds of that being the difference in winning or losing it is way down the list for me.

When I weight that against a possible ND in the appendix position I think the odds are higher here than me needing that .25 of a second. I fully understand that others feel differently.

Security of the gun is often sighted as a reason to carry appendix but I also think that situational awareness also goes a long way to keeping your gun secure.

If you think it can work for you then give it a try. Get a good rig and give it a try. If you hate it all you will be out is a holster which you can most likely covert to hip carry or sell.
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Old April 1, 2018, 01:22 PM   #22
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each has its pros and cons, but most of it will depend upon how you are built and what type of activity you will be engaged in.
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Old April 1, 2018, 04:39 PM   #23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V25JBR-TXX0&app=desktop

For bigger guys and check out Lucky's other ones on the topic
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Old April 6, 2018, 01:15 PM   #24
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Looked at the video , very good . EDC is one thing , from watching those videos , some are equipped for all out war, only thing missing , frags , smoke an pressure patches .I ordered a Vedder LightTuck IWB kydex holster , has an adjustable cant belt clip . Never used a kydex holster , should be interesting . Be Well .

Chris
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Old April 8, 2018, 07:58 AM   #25
WVsig
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That's one of the videos that started me down this path actually.

And while I agree with you that for the vast majority of situations a quick draw probably isn't going to be a factor, aren't we always stressing the idea that we must be prepared for the worst possible situation? And couldn't one of those really bad situations necessarily involve the need to get your gun into the fight as rapidly as possible? I mean, yes the odds are extremely low that I might even get into a gunfight, ever. And that means that the odds of needing a quick draw-stroke are even that much lower. But it could happen, right?

And the reality is that my draw-stroke is pretty slow or average at best. I'm never going to be accused of being a fast draw guy. So it just seems to me (and I freely admit I might be wrong here) that to reduce the time it takes to get my gun working, knowing I'm not Quick-Draw Mcgraw, it might be in my best interest to look at a faster system.

Which is part of how I came to this point.

The other major reason I like the idea of appendix carry is the security. No one is going to reach into the front of my pants and grab my gun without me knowing about it, and if it did happen, I'd be able to use both arms to fend the attacker off. With hip carry the gun is just more exposed.

Here's another video from Rob Pincus that addresses appendix carry issues that I found interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCry48DLICo
It seems like you are a Pincus fan so I wanted to post this. He is also a fan of appendix carry but for him it is not just about speed. In fact I think likes "centerline carry" because it is protected, easy to get to and he believes it is "just as safe". I get it but its just not for me. It maybe entirely physiological but it is what it is. If I am going to sweep something I would rather it be my hip, knee or foot then my junk.

You are considering carrying the appendix to gain speed. I will use another video of Rob Pincus' to refute the idea that a faster draw of half a second or even a second is really necessary in a defensive handgun situation.

I think that this video illustrates why I am trying to get across better than I have explained it. The point I am trying to make is that if we ever have to use a gun in self defense it is going to be a dynamic incident. It is not to going to be "shooter ready????" You will not be putting 2 shoots into 3-5 predetermined targets. You standing their waiting for the buzzer to go off and shoot a known and studied course of fire. It is going to happen fast and it is going to be "RANDOM".

Rob L is a much faster and better shooter that Pincus. In the video in a static known environment Rob L puts 2 rounds in 3 targets in .40 seconds faster than Pincus. In the competition work that is a lifetime. No way Pincus will ever make up that time and win the match.

Yet when the scenario changes and you do not know the order, placement of targets or the number of shots fired the faster shooter Rob L is slower than Pincus. When you add in processing the information while shooting the absolute speed of shooting including the draw do not win the day. Even with that in mind the timer does not tell you that you won. It does not predict winning a gun fight. Pincus downed the targets with less rounds and faster than Rob L but who won? The TIMER does not tell you.

Don't get so hung up on the timer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkk...fAYwHcyU8ODXOU
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-Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
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