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Old February 16, 2017, 01:15 PM   #1
gtrask
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Archaeologist in Need of ID for Bullets/Slugs (2 of 3)

[This is the second of a series of three posts with several bullets I am trying to ID.]

I am an archaeologist working at a WWI training camp located in the California Bay Area. This camp was used during WWI and saw limited use during WWII and by sport/civilian shooters. So, most of these bullets should be U.S.-made rounds, either military or commercial, dating as early as the late 1800s to the present day.

I would like to know the caliber and approximate date range for each bullet. I realize that ID-ing/dating fragments of bullets is very difficult, but I'm just trying to get as close as possible to an estimated caliber and date. Let me know if you need additional specs or pics.

Photos of each bullet are at the end of this thread listed in sequential order (left to right, top to bottom). Go here for additional photos:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...kk?usp=sharing

4. Bullets (3) that seem to be same caliber: lead, flat-nose, recessed base, two knurled groves around base
-Diameter = .436-.453” (~11.3mm); length = .725”; weight = 239 grs.
-Guess: .45 Colt / .45 Colt Government / .45 Colt Model 1909 / .45 S&W (Schofield)?

5. Bullets (2) of the same caliber: lead, round-nose, flat base, one wide and one narrow smooth grooves with three bands around base
-Diameter = .350-.356” (~8.95mm); length = .718”; weight = 149 grs.
-Guess: .38 S&W / .38 Long or Short Colt / .38 Special?

6. Bullet jacket fragment: non-magnetic (probably cupro-nickel or gilding metal), recessed and enclosed base (two-stepped circular depression), one knurled cannelure located .692" from base, band just below cannelure groove .125" wide
-Diameter = .300-.313” (~7.75mm); length = 1.018+”; weight = 57+grs.
-Guess: .303 British Mark VI or VII
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0578small.jpg (152.2 KB, 120 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0583small.jpg (117.0 KB, 101 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0586small.jpg (95.9 KB, 95 views)
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Old February 16, 2017, 03:44 PM   #2
Jim Watson
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No 4 Looks a LOT like .45 1909 I was able to google.
No 5 Looks just like Lyman #358311 from .38 Special reload.
No 6 Might be a .30 cal something, the lands are narrower than Enfield.
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Old February 16, 2017, 06:30 PM   #3
gtrask
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Thanks Jim

Thanks Jim. Your help is much appreciated! Could you send me the link/photo you googled of that .45 Colt M1909? Thanks.

Last edited by gtrask; February 16, 2017 at 06:37 PM.
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Old February 16, 2017, 07:59 PM   #4
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See box and cartridge of 1909 in images at google for
.45 1909 cartridge
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Old February 16, 2017, 08:55 PM   #5
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Hatcher in his Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, on page 374, gives this as information on the 45 Model of 1909 Cartridge:

Bullet weight: 255 grains (except Remington 250 grains)
Bullet diameter: 0.454 inch
Bullet length 0.72 inch

There was a metal jacketed 45 Caliber revolver cartridge "issued for use in the Philippines" with a bullet weighing 234 grains with a cupronickle jacket.
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Old February 17, 2017, 01:18 PM   #6
gtrask
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Slamfire:

Slamfire,

Thanks for the info. I've been meaning to get me a copy of that book. Seems like a really solid reference for military bullet ID.
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Old February 19, 2017, 11:49 AM   #7
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gtrask:

Based on your post and inquiries, a good companion book, Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, that would help you, would be Hatches, "Firearm Investigation, Identification and Evidence".

Though older, I found this book to be invaluable in my CSI days when I was in LE.

But being older might make it a better text for your studies.



https://www.amazon.com/Firearms-Inve...ds=j.++hatcher
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Old February 24, 2017, 03:56 AM   #8
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The base profile on #6 eliminates the 173gr M1 ball used in the original 30-06 loading. The position of the cannelure so far up the bullet body eliminates the later M2 ball load used in WWII.

So what is left....A 30 cal bullet used in a pre WWI training camp could be either 220gr round nosed bullet fired from a 30-40 Krag or 30-03 or what I think is most likely is that you have a jacket from an M2 AP bullet, as they had the cannelure above a lower band like that, and either the penetrator separated or corroded out over the years. The original bullet weight would have been between 162 and 165 grains, and the base of the bullet would have been folded over/cupped and enclosed.

Can't be exactly sure because I can't see the base of the bullet, but I think M2AP is the best bet from the information available.

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Old February 24, 2017, 11:44 AM   #9
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To Jimro:

Jimro,

Thanks for the response. I will look into comparing this to drawings I have of M2AP rounds. What rules this out as a .303 Mark VI/VII? I have compared this to some images of .303 rounds and the cannelure position and profile seem consistent.
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Old February 24, 2017, 11:55 AM   #10
gtrask
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Rifling marks

If it helps, the .30 cal jacket has four grooves about 0.070" wide with a right-hand twist. There is also a small protruding band just below the cannelure that is about 0.120" wide.
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Old February 24, 2017, 04:36 PM   #11
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4 groove would indicate an early M1903 barrel, M1 or M14.

Later M1903s were 2 grove.
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Old February 26, 2017, 10:52 AM   #12
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I dont have much help here but this is an amazing thread. I am tagging it so I can find it latter!

I have to say I love how helpful these forums are!
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