40 S&W good enough for mountain lions/black bear?

pacerdude · April 19, 2009, 11:23 PM

Out of curiosity, my significant other and I, like to enjoy the outdoors from time to time, hikes,walking through the woods and whatnot. Here in Georgia about the only animals (other than the two legged type) that i am concerned with are mountain lions/cougars/panthers/pumas/big mean fast cat etc... and perhaps the occasional black bear. Is my 40 cal pistol big enough to protect us if the need arises?

For the record, I have a pacemaker so Rifles/Shotguns are out due to the recoil.

Thanks in advance

cjw3cma · April 20, 2009, 12:01 AM

Better than nothing. But seriously, pepper spray should be your first line of defense - for bear - with your 40S&W as back up.

pacerdude · April 20, 2009, 12:03 AM

I always carry OC spray with me, no matter where I am... Honestly I am more worried about the cougars than the bear.

Jim March · April 20, 2009, 12:09 AM

For the kitties, yeah, any decent manstopper will do pretty solid work. The kitties of north america just aren't that big and while they're fast as hell, they're relatively thin skinned. They're also easier to dissuade - the cougar/puma attacks that do happen are because kitty looks at you as dinner. When dinner fights back, it's no longer worth it. A good 38+P JHP can suffice.

Black bears can soak up a lot more damage and keep coming - and they'll do so if they're ****** off. They do also once in a while see us as dinner but most of the time it's mama with cubs tries to kill you if they attack at all...and in that case, they'll keep on coming until physically unable to do so. 40S&W is seriously marginal. Best bet is a 180gr solid going as fast as possible with as flat a nose as possible, such as:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=117

Aim dead on it's nose. You're trying to punch through the snout or cheekbones to get at the brain set low and rearward in the head (not like us!). The "forehead" is a solid lump of bone anchoring the jaw muscles, you will NOT break it with a 40 or 10mm or 357. On a black bear, you might knock it out with a 44Mag but it may still get up with a headache and attitude. With the nose shot, too low and you get it in the chest, and penetration deep enough will be iffy with anything hollowpoint. Off in windage, you can hope for the "break the shoulder shot" and yet again, for that you need deep punch hence the heavyweight solid. All of this is marginal in 40 but with the smaller black bears of 400lbs or lower, not impossible per my BOOK learnin' on the subject (no personal experience shooting bears!). And every once in a while you see a 600lb black, and I suspect by then you'll wish you had more gun. Bigtime.

In 357 I'd be using a 180gr solid in hardcast lead, which would be going a lot faster and packing more energy. Buffalo Bore's version packs over 750ft/lbs energy while the 40S&W listed above doesn't hit 500ft/lbs.

cracked91 · April 20, 2009, 12:11 AM

Bear spray 1st like everyone else said. But IMO .40 is more than enough for black bears or cougars. Black bears are not big bears, and are rarely aggressive, and with a mountain lion its gonna be whether or not you notice it, but I watched my buddy shoot a black bear about 40 yards away with a 6 inch gp100 .357 and it dropped like a rag doll, no twitch or anything.

Tucker 1371 · April 20, 2009, 12:16 AM

There are mountain lions in GA? I'm originally from Rome up in Northwest GA where the mountains are but I've never seen or even heard of a mountain lion in GA.

I would definitely want more punch to stop a black bear though, I would say no less than a .357 mag, maybe graduate to a really big bore revolver like a .454 Casull or a .460 XVR, one with a shorter barrel since you want to be able to point it quickly.

cracked91 · April 20, 2009, 12:24 AM

Most people weigh over 150 lbs, I know they are thicker skinned but I would bet my life on one to do the job. Don't get me wrong, I am actually not a fan of .40 s&w, I just think its more than adequate for the job the OP would be using it for. The problem, like you said, is that a cat that is going to attack you is going to sneak up on you

Chesster · April 20, 2009, 01:11 AM

I live in GA and I think a 180gr. .40 is adequate for cats and blackies. I dispatched a black bear in FL years ago with two LSWC Remington .44 Specials. I think those were 200gr factory loads if I remember correctly.

Jim March · April 20, 2009, 06:57 AM

A lot of black bears are down around 200lbs. That's more or less just a big dog

. But 400lb class aren't that uncommon and every once in a while they're bagged at 600lbs or more.

And THAT is a dangerous critter.

curt.45 · April 20, 2009, 07:15 AM

maybe your wife could carry a S&W .500? or at least a .44?

shortwave · April 20, 2009, 07:36 AM

If my/family life may depend on what size caliber gun to use given a chance to pick caliber beforehand, I`m not going marginal. IMO the 40 is plenty for the cat but no so sure for big sow blackie with cubs. Your planning for a chance encounter. Don`t go marginal!

WESHOOT2 · April 20, 2009, 09:28 AM

If you can launch a .400" 200g bullet over 1,000fps your system will be sufficient.

pendennis · April 20, 2009, 10:26 AM

While an automatic with .40 S&W may be fine for self defense against two-legged predators, I wouldn't trust anything less than .357 Magnum for encounters with a puma or black bear. While some bears do weigh as little as 200 lbs., and pumas may weigh 150, they have superior strength and speed.

Carry the OC spray, but a Ruger Blackhawk makes a good gun to be carried in a hip holster. A hot loaded Blackhawk in .45 Colt is a good side arm.

Black bear sows can be very aggressive when protecting cubs, and a puma could be too quick to shoot, especially if it gets close before you see it.

Most of all, make sure you're aware of your environment. Your in their world, not yours.

Tom2 · April 20, 2009, 11:59 AM

Dam! Thugs in the city, bears and lions in the woods, hey, come live in the suburbs!

echo6actual · April 20, 2009, 12:15 PM

Do NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT try to use a .40 S&W on a bear. You will lose life

and limb. I would suggest a NATO .308(7.62x51mm) magazine fed semi-auto

(sorry safety says no bolt action here) or larger high powered rifle. It has

been noted .44 Magnum and CUSTOM loaded .357 Magnum has been used

to kill bears in certain controlled instances. However, better safe than sorry!

Use a high powered semi-auto rifle or TRIPLE ought buck shot in a good

shotgun. Again if you use a shotgun use one that holds at least six rounds

in the tube. A pump will work but I reccomend a semi-auto shotgun. Above

all else be careful, wild animals don't give a @##t

Norrick · April 20, 2009, 12:20 PM

honestly, i would not put much faith into defending against mountain lions. like some have mentioned b4 they get you from behind, in which case, realictically your best shot is someone with you getting the cat off you. i would never go in cat country alone if i could help it.

Reacher · April 20, 2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Do NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT try to use a .40 S&W on a bear. You will lose life

and limb. I would suggest a NATO .308(7.62x51mm) magazine fed semi-auto

(sorry safety says no bolt action here) or larger high powered rifle. It has

been noted .44 Magnum and CUSTOM loaded .357 Magnum has been used

to kill bears in certain controlled instances. However, better safe than sorry!

Use a high powered semi-auto rifle or TRIPLE ought buck shot in a good

shotgun. Again if you use a shotgun use one that holds at least six rounds

in the tube. A pump will work but I reccomend a semi-auto shotgun. Above

all else be careful, wild animals don't give a @##t

Way to read the original post. He said he has a pacemaker so rifles/shotguns are out of the question due to recoil.

I would think a good 180gr would be sufficient, but then I'm certainly no expert.

eaglesnester · April 20, 2009, 12:50 PM

NO

**Shane Tuttle** · April 20, 2009, 01:28 PM

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't even begin to think of carrying a gun chambered in .40SW. Most common semi-auto cartridges are a poor excuse for true self defense on animals you state. Even if there's an occasional bear, I'd still prepare to take anything down without question. In other words, I'd stop thinking "what may be good enough" and start thinking "what is good enough".

.44Magnum is what would be at my side. If you can't handle the recoil, you can still shoot .44Special out of the same gun depending on the firearm.

cracked91 · April 20, 2009, 01:41 PM

this is black bear, not grizzly. for grizzly or kodiak i would be with a .454 but black bears are generally alot smaller, not aggressive, and they supposedly scare easily even when they are aggressive. in all honesty, (i know you guys will flame me for this) when i am hiking in northern az where the biggest predators are cougars and black bears, i carry my p22 with cci mini mags

**Shane Tuttle** · April 20, 2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

this is black bear, not grizzly.

So? Black bears to tend to be more passive. But that isn't the case every time. Ever come across a cub? You think that situation doesn't come about? I'm definitely seeing a pattern of marginalizing what should actually be suggested...and not only in this thread....

Quote:

in all honesty, (i know you guys will flame me for this) when i am hiking in northern az where the biggest predators are cougars and black bears, i carry my p22 with cci mini mags

Need I say more?

Do what you want. It's your business. But I would get ready by donning a flame suit. You're going to need it...

dcobler · April 20, 2009, 01:52 PM

I would think that you asked about the .40 because it is the only or largerst caliber you own, am I correct?

If it were me, I would look into a .357 revolver as my next purchase and carry the .40 untill that point. Definetly carrying a .40 caliber semi auto is stronger defense than the rotting branch you would pick up during an attack because someone told you it was not the right caliber.

I wouldn't just go out and buy a 44 mag either, since it is for the black bear you may never see. If you like, find something chambered for a more powerful cartridge that you like that you can shoot for sport, and then you have your outdoors defense gun. The 44 mag that you buy for that black bear you might see may be a little on the harsh side for recoil and limit your practice.

And to echo6actual,
Please read the original post entirely before posting a response. Next, please offer advice, not instruction. Unless you are typing with one arm because of your .40 black bear experience, we would appreciate it if you did not to tell others what they should not do. And if you are typing with one arm do to your loss of limb black bear experience, just give us advice pertaining to your experience.

Wildalaska · April 20, 2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

when i am hiking in northern az where the biggest predators are cougars and black bears, i carry my p22 with cci mini mags

Hey we are about to offer P22 Black bear Hunts up here, want to come up?

WildiseeageckoAlaska ™

AZAK · April 20, 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

I always carry OC spray with me

And there you go. If I were a betting man, these are the odds that I would play. (And I usually carry 10mm as back up to bear spray.)

www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html

AZAK · April 20, 2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Hey we are about to offer P22 Black bear Hunts up here, want to come up?

WA, just make sure to get the full payment for the fee prior to the beginning of the hunt; no deposit and rest of payment afterward!

If you need a guide, I believe that Pooh and his relatives are just "wakey wakey" around locale fairly soon. Maybe we can set something up?

April 19, 2009, 11:23 PM	#1
pacerdude Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 607	40 S&W good enough for mountain lions/black bear? Out of curiosity, my significant other and I, like to enjoy the outdoors from time to time, hikes,walking through the woods and whatnot. Here in Georgia about the only animals (other than the two legged type) that i am concerned with are mountain lions/cougars/panthers/pumas/big mean fast cat etc... and perhaps the occasional black bear. Is my 40 cal pistol big enough to protect us if the need arises? For the record, I have a pacemaker so Rifles/Shotguns are out due to the recoil. Thanks in advance

April 20, 2009, 12:01 AM	#2
cjw3cma Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Chiloquin, OR Posts: 217	Better than nothing. But seriously, pepper spray should be your first line of defense - for bear - with your 40S&W as back up. __________________ The Constitution shall never be construed … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams

April 20, 2009, 12:09 AM	#4
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	For the kitties, yeah, any decent manstopper will do pretty solid work. The kitties of north america just aren't that big and while they're fast as hell, they're relatively thin skinned. They're also easier to dissuade - the cougar/puma attacks that do happen are because kitty looks at you as dinner. When dinner fights back, it's no longer worth it. A good 38+P JHP can suffice. Black bears can soak up a lot more damage and keep coming - and they'll do so if they're ****** off. They do also once in a while see us as dinner but most of the time it's mama with cubs tries to kill you if they attack at all...and in that case, they'll keep on coming until physically unable to do so. 40S&W is seriously marginal. Best bet is a 180gr solid going as fast as possible with as flat a nose as possible, such as: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=117 Aim dead on it's nose. You're trying to punch through the snout or cheekbones to get at the brain set low and rearward in the head (not like us!). The "forehead" is a solid lump of bone anchoring the jaw muscles, you will NOT break it with a 40 or 10mm or 357. On a black bear, you might knock it out with a 44Mag but it may still get up with a headache and attitude. With the nose shot, too low and you get it in the chest, and penetration deep enough will be iffy with anything hollowpoint. Off in windage, you can hope for the "break the shoulder shot" and yet again, for that you need deep punch hence the heavyweight solid. All of this is marginal in 40 but with the smaller black bears of 400lbs or lower, not impossible per my BOOK learnin' on the subject (no personal experience shooting bears!). And every once in a while you see a 600lb black, and I suspect by then you'll wish you had more gun. Bigtime. In 357 I'd be using a 180gr solid in hardcast lead, which would be going a lot faster and packing more energy. Buffalo Bore's version packs over 750ft/lbs energy while the 40S&W listed above doesn't hit 500ft/lbs. __________________ Jim March

April 20, 2009, 12:16 AM	#6
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	There are mountain lions in GA? I'm originally from Rome up in Northwest GA where the mountains are but I've never seen or even heard of a mountain lion in GA. I would definitely want more punch to stop a black bear though, I would say no less than a .357 mag, maybe graduate to a really big bore revolver like a .454 Casull or a .460 XVR, one with a shorter barrel since you want to be able to point it quickly. __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

April 20, 2009, 01:11 AM	#8
Chesster Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Location: Dixie Posts: 2,538	I live in GA and I think a 180gr. .40 is adequate for cats and blackies. I dispatched a black bear in FL years ago with two LSWC Remington .44 Specials. I think those were 200gr factory loads if I remember correctly. __________________ Chesster Proud NDN "The American Idle" Vote 'Pro-Choice' on 2nd Amendment issues!!!

April 20, 2009, 12:03 AM	#3
pacerdude Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 607	I always carry OC spray with me, no matter where I am... Honestly I am more worried about the cougars than the bear.

April 20, 2009, 12:11 AM	#5
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Bear spray 1st like everyone else said. But IMO .40 is more than enough for black bears or cougars. Black bears are not big bears, and are rarely aggressive, and with a mountain lion its gonna be whether or not you notice it, but I watched my buddy shoot a black bear about 40 yards away with a 6 inch gp100 .357 and it dropped like a rag doll, no twitch or anything.

April 20, 2009, 12:24 AM	#7
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Most people weigh over 150 lbs, I know they are thicker skinned but I would bet my life on one to do the job. Don't get me wrong, I am actually not a fan of .40 s&w, I just think its more than adequate for the job the OP would be using it for. The problem, like you said, is that a cat that is going to attack you is going to sneak up on you

April 20, 2009, 06:57 AM	#9
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	A lot of black bears are down around 200lbs. That's more or less just a big dog . But 400lb class aren't that uncommon and every once in a while they're bagged at 600lbs or more. And THAT is a dangerous critter. __________________ Jim March

April 20, 2009, 07:15 AM	#10
curt.45 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Location: Fort Wayne Ind. Posts: 866	maybe your wife could carry a S&W .500? or at least a .44?

April 20, 2009, 07:36 AM	#11
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	If my/family life may depend on what size caliber gun to use given a chance to pick caliber beforehand, I`m not going marginal. IMO the 40 is plenty for the cat but no so sure for big sow blackie with cubs. Your planning for a chance encounter. Don`t go marginal!

April 20, 2009, 09:28 AM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	with proper ammo ONLY If you can launch a .400" 200g bullet over 1,000fps your system will be sufficient. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

April 20, 2009, 10:26 AM	#13
pendennis Junior member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 572	Not nearly... While an automatic with .40 S&W may be fine for self defense against two-legged predators, I wouldn't trust anything less than .357 Magnum for encounters with a puma or black bear. While some bears do weigh as little as 200 lbs., and pumas may weigh 150, they have superior strength and speed. Carry the OC spray, but a Ruger Blackhawk makes a good gun to be carried in a hip holster. A hot loaded Blackhawk in .45 Colt is a good side arm. Black bear sows can be very aggressive when protecting cubs, and a puma could be too quick to shoot, especially if it gets close before you see it. Most of all, make sure you're aware of your environment. Your in their world, not yours.

April 20, 2009, 11:59 AM	#14
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	Dam! Thugs in the city, bears and lions in the woods, hey, come live in the suburbs! __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

April 20, 2009, 12:15 PM	#15
echo6actual Junior Member Join Date: April 19, 2009 Location: Classified Posts: 10	Long Guns STRONGLY reccomended Do NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT try to use a .40 S&W on a bear. You will lose life and limb. I would suggest a NATO .308(7.62x51mm) magazine fed semi-auto (sorry safety says no bolt action here) or larger high powered rifle. It has been noted .44 Magnum and CUSTOM loaded .357 Magnum has been used to kill bears in certain controlled instances. However, better safe than sorry! Use a high powered semi-auto rifle or TRIPLE ought buck shot in a good shotgun. Again if you use a shotgun use one that holds at least six rounds in the tube. A pump will work but I reccomend a semi-auto shotgun. Above all else be careful, wild animals don't give a @##t __________________ What DOPE do you have on your gun?

April 20, 2009, 12:20 PM	#16
Norrick Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2008 Posts: 577	honestly, i would not put much faith into defending against mountain lions. like some have mentioned b4 they get you from behind, in which case, realictically your best shot is someone with you getting the cat off you. i would never go in cat country alone if i could help it.

April 20, 2009, 12:50 PM	#18
eaglesnester Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Posts: 100	40SW for bear NO

April 20, 2009, 01:28 PM	#19
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't even begin to think of carrying a gun chambered in .40SW. Most common semi-auto cartridges are a poor excuse for true self defense on animals you state. Even if there's an occasional bear, I'd still prepare to take anything down without question. In other words, I'd stop thinking "what may be good enough" and start thinking "what is good enough". .44Magnum is what would be at my side. If you can't handle the recoil, you can still shoot .44Special out of the same gun depending on the firearm. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

April 20, 2009, 01:41 PM	#20
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	this is black bear, not grizzly. for grizzly or kodiak i would be with a .454 but black bears are generally alot smaller, not aggressive, and they supposedly scare easily even when they are aggressive. in all honesty, (i know you guys will flame me for this) when i am hiking in northern az where the biggest predators are cougars and black bears, i carry my p22 with cci mini mags

April 20, 2009, 01:52 PM	#22
dcobler Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2008 Location: Oklahoma, America Posts: 286	I would think that you asked about the .40 because it is the only or largerst caliber you own, am I correct? If it were me, I would look into a .357 revolver as my next purchase and carry the .40 untill that point. Definetly carrying a .40 caliber semi auto is stronger defense than the rotting branch you would pick up during an attack because someone told you it was not the right caliber. I wouldn't just go out and buy a 44 mag either, since it is for the black bear you may never see. If you like, find something chambered for a more powerful cartridge that you like that you can shoot for sport, and then you have your outdoors defense gun. The 44 mag that you buy for that black bear you might see may be a little on the harsh side for recoil and limit your practice. And to echo6actual, Please read the original post entirely before posting a response. Next, please offer advice, not instruction. Unless you are typing with one arm because of your .40 black bear experience, we would appreciate it if you did not to tell others what they should not do. And if you are typing with one arm do to your loss of limb black bear experience, just give us advice pertaining to your experience. __________________ "Be kind, be courteous, and have a plan to kill everybody you meet." Last edited by dcobler; April 20, 2009 at 01:57 PM.