.303 British....

[tobnpr]

Looking for a blank for a customer's Mosin-Nagant project...
Krieger has .303-.311 blanks in 9 and 10 twist, but I want to see if there's something out there for a bit less coin.

I look at Lothar-Walther, and they make a .303/.312 (perfect!) except...it's a 16 twist.

SAAMI spec for the .303 Brit is .303/.314, and I thought Enfield barrels had a 10 twist (but I'm sure I'm wrong, or that it varied over different models).

That 16 twist is a deal breaker. Any idea what it may be intended for?

Coming up dry for other manufacturers in .303/.312 (other than McGowan), if anyone knows of any...

[Scorch]

The 1:16" twist blank is made for 32-20. If you need a .311" groove diameter blank, go to Green Mountain Rifle Barrels site (http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/). They have .311" groove diameter barrels suitable for 7.62X39/7.62X54/303 Brit/7.7X58/7.62X53, etc.

[tobnpr]

Thanks.
Heard of them, but not sure of the level of their quality.
Don't need Krieger accuracy, but only about a notch down- better than a minute, still- it is for a long-range build. I told the customer no way to assure him of half minute accuracy with that receiver that would justify a Krieger.

Do you have any experience with Green Mtn.?

[FrankenMauser]

Green Mountain barrels are decent. Surf the internet for reviews, if you'd like.
The business is run by two brothers that love accurate rifles.


Just stay away from their brother's wood. He claims to specialize in premium gun wood, but told me after I pressured him that he soaks the pricier samples in cyanoacrylate (super glue, to prevent splitting before it's shaped), 'cures' in clamps (so that YOU lose money when it warps during shaping/inletting/finishing, rather than him during drying), and sells when the wood is still far too wet to be useful (as little as 3 months after cutting ).
And, as poorly as he says business has been over the last couple of years, I'd guess that he's had quite a few customers discover the same thing...

[Clark]

I got a custom reamer from Manson for someone that takes a .300" floating pilot and cuts a throat in .308" barrels for the otherwise 7.62x54R.

I borrowed it back to set the barrel back on Mosin with a rusted pit in the chamber.

The reason for the custom reamer is to use 308 barrels and 308 bullets.

There is not much for boat tail hunting bullets in .313" to shoot in those old Mosin Nagants at long range.

But there are lots of good 308 bullets.

[tobnpr]

Clark,

Customer doesn't handload at present, rules out this option- it was the first thing I suggested to him...

I told the customer I was reluctant (well, more than reluctant- I probably wouldn't do it) to install a high-end barrel like the Krieger onto an unknown receiver that could be way "out" with nothing true or concentric. We all know that MN's are not- but some are better than others and there's no way to know where on this spectrum his falls.

I'm more comfortable with keeping the cost more reasonable with a slightly lesser grade barrel that can still outshoot the receiver.

Honestly, given that he doesn't handload, I tried my best to talk him into abandoning the MN receiver as a basis for this build (it is intended for 600-1K yard shooting) and using a trued Rem 700 or Savage action in either .308 (for commercial ammo variety) or 6.5 Creedmore- but he really wants to see what can be done with his MN receiver.

He says he shoots it currently at 600 yards and shoots "plate size" (I guess, 10-12") groups so it can't be that bad- I'm just trying to make sure I manage his expectations.

[Scorch]

Just stay away from their brother's wood.

I wil second that. His prices are way too high, and he will not stand behind his product. A customer of mine bought a piece of exhibition grade English walnut from him for waaaay too much money. Turns out it had lots and lots of drying checking, and he had filled holes in the blank with some sort of filler. When I called him on it, he got pretty hostile with me. THat;s OK, I just buy my wood elsewhere, and I buy a few fancy blanks every year.

[tobnpr]

I don't usually get requests for higher-end wood, most is Std. grade, I was able to get some A Fancy Maple and Myrtle but that "dried up"...

I've used the same supplier in Cali. for years for hardwoods that supplies some of the major manuf's. here', very reasonably priced for Walnut- never fillers of any kind and very rarely any defects.

Boyd's is still the only game in town on laminates, 50% price increase since Rutland Plywood burned down last year.

[James K]

I can understand the idea of trying to build/have built a rifle that will shoot better, further, faster, etc., than some other guy's rifle. But I don't understand taking an absolutely terrible action like the M-N, with a miserable trigger pull, gawdawful bolt, weird scope mounting, and spending big bucks to make it into a super rifle. It was an 1890-vintage military action, and not even a very good one, designed for a cartridge that had everything going against it. It would be a joke if a major (but backward) power had not fallen for a fast sales line and bought or made them by the millions.

OK, they are a curiosity and every military rifle collection has to have one or more. And lots of folks shoot them for fun because the ammo is cheap.

But when I hear about someone who spent over $5000 working an M-N over into a long range target rifle, I just have to do a lot of headscratching.

Jim

[Gunplummer]

Did you hit the surplus places for a .303 machine gun barrel? Still, a .303 Brit has a small rim and body diameter and there will be bolt face and feeding issues. I did one in 30-40 Krag way back before ammo was readily available and it was a pretty painless operation. Maybe talk him into that?

[James K]

Color me curious, but when was the last time anyone saw a .303 machine gun barrel in a surplus store? It has been years since I have even seen a .30 MG barrel in a surplus store, and I don't think I have ever seen one in .303.

Jim

[Clark]

I have a number of 7.62x54R UK-59 machine gun barrels.

[Gunplummer]

Some of the bigger outfits sell a lot of surplus stuff. I have not looked lately, but Bren gun barrels used to be pretty common. I picked up a heavy finned barrel in 7x57 a few years back. I think it came from SARCO. They did not know what it came off of but it was new. I used it for a spare barrel on my one '99 T/D guns and chambered it in 7-30 Waters. It is really quite accurate. Machine gun barrels make good project barrels because of their being over size on the OD.

[tobnpr]

The UK-59 barrels Clark refers to were imported by TN Guns and re-threaded for the MN receiver some years back. Dirt cheap, I think they were in the range of $50 or so at the time.

A lot were bought up, and amazingly (to me, anyway) many shot lights-out. Who'd expect that from a MG barrel? Most that bought them thought they'd "screw them on" and shoot- and nothing could have been further from the truth. No shoulder on the barrel (usually a sleeve would need to machined to set headspace), re-cut the extractor groove, and if the chamber wasn't the correct depth a custom carbide reamer was needed for the chrome-lined barrels.

Any that have surfaced since (usually by those incapable of doing the work required) have sold for ridiculous $$ on sites like GB and Ebay- as in over $300...

Clark, have you ever installed any of yours? Or saving them to sell to the masses to help fund retirement $$$

[Clark]

yes I have ~ 4 of the barrels.
They are all clocked the same.
I had a dozen Mosin receivers and one clocked with them.
I built.... kluged a rifle together and went to the range.

I turned some features off the barrel so I could slide a sleeve over the gas hole. Some of the barrels were more complete than others, and this one had a gas hole drilled.

It shot a 0.5" 3 shot group at 50 yards.

link below is different

[FrankenMauser]

Interesting.

[Jim Watson]

Looking for a blank for a customer's Mosin-Nagant project...
Krieger has .303-.311 blanks in 9 and 10 twist, but I want to see if there's something out there for a bit less coin.

Sock him with the Krieger.
If he expects to turn a MN into a target rifle and you put a less well known barrel on it, you will get the blame for failure.
Give him the best and hope for the best.

I can't imagine the difference in a barrel blank amounting to much alongside other work including profiling, threading, chambering, and headspacing said barrel, not to mention bolt handle, scope mount, and stock work.

[tobnpr]

If he expects to turn a MN into a target rifle and you put a less well known barrel on it, you will get the blame for failure.
Give him the best and hope for the best.

This is the dilemma...
I could accept minute of angle for a 500-600 yard rifle. For 1K, it needs to be .5-.75 minimum, JMO... The bigger problem is, he doesn't handload- so how the heck can he (or I) really know how it would shoot. I can always run some commercial through it as proof-testing before shipping it out (still better than surplus!), but without him working up handloads it'll forever be a mystery.

The blame for failure is the problem. I can get a disclaimer signed (and would)- but who wants an unhappy customer that just spent two grand?

Shilen has them as well- better priced than the Krieger and still no slouch in the accuracy department. I just have my doubts that the receiver could shoot the difference in quality/cost. I've teamed up with a precision rifle smith nearby for this kind of work (which, I'm not afraid to admit-still learning/practicing!) to make sure it can't be done better- and he's really hesitant about us even doing the work, can't blame him.

[Jim Watson]

Doesn't reload? Expects LR target accuracy from surplus?
Wow, he is really living in a fantasy world.

[James K]

In my limited experience, an M-N action would appear to be about the worst possible choice for a long-range target rifle. Of course, some may disagree and I would defer to those who have actually used it as a base for a 600-1000+ yard sub-MOA rifle. But I somehow doubt I will get many responses.

Jim

[tobnpr]

Actually, the actions are crude- but capable- if it's a "good one". That's the risk. Not trying to compare them to a BAT, Stiller, Defiance or a trued 700- but, they don't cost $1000 either.

The Olympic Biathlon was won by the Soviets with a MN action re-barreled with a 6.5 x 54R in 1976:

http://www.examiner.com/article/mosi...biathlon-rifle

The Finnish M28/76 Target rifle, based off the M28 (used by the world record holder for confirmed kills, Simo Hayha), is known to be very accurate. The reputation of the MN for poor accuracy is due to lousy wartime Russian barrels, terrible triggers, and a crude stock with a poor fit. Even a precision built rifle would perform poorly with the stock and trigger of a MN.

Here is a customer with a custom stock I made for him, shooting his M28/76 at 1450 yards, with Berger VLD's.

https://youtu.be/XM12yZ7GKlw

The lack of handloading is the primary reason I tried to steer him to build a trued Rem or Savage, in .308 there's match ammo, as well as a wide variety of commercial available that could be used.

Doesn't reload? Expects LR target accuracy from surplus?
Wow, he is really living in a fantasy world.

Partially correct. I've told him unequivocally that surplus is out of the question except for plinking (and who in the world is gonna dump corrosive ammo down a $500 barrel?), but even with commercial like Prvi and S&B decent results are very unlikely. Could be a capable performer at 500-600 with factory ammo, but beyond that all bets are off.

[criterionbarrels]

I think we have a few 1-10 .303 blanks in process that were going to be allocated for our Lee Enfield barrels. I sent an email with the length (26.25") and diameter (1.335") details just now.

[tobnpr]

Thanks, Josh.

Nice to see you here on TFL.

For those of you with milsurps (and precision rifles) in need of a fresh barrel- CBI is good to go...they have an impressive lineup of short-chambered barrels that have impressive accuracy- and price as well. Use them on my personal rifles...