Shooting my '58's

[Old Dragoon]

Wayner,
That is the way I was taught to do it. I had a couple great teachers, one a ML gunsmith in Muncie, Indiana, and another a name builder from Mich. I lay out the dovetailon the flat of the bbl complete with centerline. I make a series of cuts, take out the metal with a cold chisel, clean it up square and flat to depth then use the 3 sided file with one side ground smooth. smooth side down and cut the dovetails. The dovetail itself is slightly trapazoidal, just enough for a force fitup when completed with the insert piece.

[Smokin_Gun]

Wayne, hey bud...speakin about old 1858 Rem barrels for Piettas, have you got any that were removed and replaced? All I'm lookin for is one with good threads and about the first 3-4" in fair condition, actually only the threads matter. Just an old barrel no lever needed. Was meanin to ask you and your post reminded me. And where did you say those clips were available from?

Make make somethin like this below...probly otta just find and old beat parts gun. Wouldn't a ported R&D conversion or a Kirst work well like this?


Or I may just do it in C&B first for cost effectivity...and I can convert later. Maybe I could mae one like this Wayne HeHe!

[Remington kid]

Old Dragoon, Looks like maybe we did go to the same school,Lol. That's just the way I have done all of my hand cut dovetails on 4 rifles and 3 revolvers. My first one took me forever because I was affraid of every move I made but it came out so well that no one would believe that it was done with a hack saw, cold chisle and files.

[Old Dragoon]

SG,
Both of these look great. Look at the one on Kirst Konverter Pages at River Junction Trade Co. website. They have the Cylinder pin Latch and spring.for the cut downs. The snubbie on the Kirst page is what I want to do to make a belly gun. Reshape the butt, etc.
When you heading East? I'll be at the Cowboy match at DM on Sunday.

RK,
I still have to clean up my latch dovetail and make a base for the latch. My idea didn't work as well as I like, Not the first time?? I also have to cut the dound part of the rammer off and shorten it and weld it back as the ejector assy dictates a notch in the rammer just where the keeper spring and body would ride. SHOOT! Oh Well the joys of shortening a bbl.

I set up my 44 Rem/colt crimper last night and it works really well. I did several 44 Rem/Colts, one S&W 44 Rem. Mag casr and bullet and one 44 Rem Mag case and bullet. Bermnie (Old West Moulds) made me two different punches one does 44 Colt cases and 44 S&W Spcl. cases and one does the 44 Rem. Mag cases.
Slick, slick slick.

Gotta load up some 44 Rem/Colts for Sundays match. Busy, Busy, Busy.

[Smokin_Gun]

Leavin on the 20th...maybe I'll stop by up there and try out the cylinder I just repaired on my Paterson, and bring another one if it's ok to shoot on the Pistol range while the CAS is going on. I wanna check out the CAS guys anyway. I'll give ya a call when I find out if I can make it. I was gonna go up today and check out the action work I did on my Pietta Rem..real smooth now. Also pop off a few with my Uberti 1851 Navy. You workin?

[Old Dragoon]

Yep All Day. Darn it, but it pays the bills and lets me play ith horses and buy my toys.

I'll be the short fat guy in the montana pinch and only one gun....LOL I don't intend to shoot much but I know they move from the pistol range to the range across the road so the pistol range is open . but their targets are left up. Those guys shoot over there afterwards. I only been there once.

If you come and can use the pistol range I'll come and shoot over there with you.I'll bring the 44 Rem.s. and some of the 44 Colts.

[Smokin_Gun]

Sounds like a plan....

[Old Dragoon]

I just slugged both my '58's with the .451 44 Rem Bullets. Found something a bit discouragingand at the same time telling. The first one I did is my recent '58 a 2002 model. it is .451 grooves X .440 Lands. This one shoot point of aim. The first of my '58's a 2005 model is .446 Grooves X .440 lands this one doesn't group, or didn't because of existing conditions, indentation in the lands and grooves at the latch and front sight and possibly the shallow rifling too. Need to get this one back together and shoot it to see if whacking the bbl. off helped. I know it sure did't hurt. No tight spots in bore (that I could fee or see)now.

[Remington kid]

Old Dragoon, With the figures you posted both of the guns should shoot great.
I'm willing to bet that the one you shortened the barrel on will group just fine now. I'm sure you did but I'll ask anyway...Did you chamfer the muzzle on that barrel after you cut it off? I thought I read somewhere that you had but just checking Let us know how they shoot.
My lans and grooves on my two Remingtons are real close to each other.The lans on the sluged .454 ball are .400, grooves are .450 and the chambers are .443. No problem grouping with these Rems. That's what my calipers say but they are not the best in the world.

[Old Dragoon]

RK,
Hope you are right.
Yep I recrowned both muzzles and lapped and polished the forcing cones. I can shove a cotton ball thru both and no snags.

I think the two tight spots had a lot to do with the acuracy they're gone. My first one "Shorty" (now). May end up being a belly gun in time, but I will finish it off and shoot it to see how it shoots. It has become more of a job than I thought when I started, but that's what these cold winter nights are for.

My only concern is "skipping" over the rifling, but it may not happen with 30-40 grns BP.

[Remington kid]

Keep in mind that the lead swells as it leaves the chamber and enters the forcing cone. That's one of the reasons these guffy figures work for black powder

[Old Dragoon]

Yep. I didn't take a lot, just cleaned up the ragged edges where the cone meets the rifling. Just polished the forcing cones with 600 grit, didn't recut. I think the only way to recut the forcing cone is to remove the BBL first.

Ok I can ask this question online now that I won the bid on another Pietta "58.

Maybe MEC Knows for sure.
Are the Pietta "58 Rem "Shooter's Pistols" the only ones that have a dovetailed front sight and rammer latch. and this one supposedly has a Gold Trigger???

[Remington kid]

Found this on the Uberti but I'm still looking for the one on the Pietta. Thia is a copy and paste:

"The Uberti's rear sight consists of a historically accurate "V" shaped groove machined into the top strap of the frame. The way this was done does allow the user to widen the "V" with a small file if desired . . . The front sight is a simple rounded blade dovetailed into the barrel near the muzzle. It can be drifted left or right in its dovetail slot to adjust for windage as necessary. To adjust for elevation the usual procedure is to file down the front sight blade to raise the point of impact . . . ."

[Smokin_Gun]

Old Dragoon does that happen to be a Patina or "Old West" Model Pietta 1858 Rem?
If so the spec do call out for that dimension. Those models all have closer chamber to bore Numbers, most at equal. Just looked it up in the DGW cat. ...
.446 chambers .446 grooves.
I got a like new Pietta 1858 Target Model if you can't bear to keep that .446 groove dim.

[Old Dragoon]

SG,
They're both patina'd now! LOL
They were both blue guns. Both from Taylor's at different times. One in 2005, one in 2002(this is the shooter amoung the two, so far. Smooth action (hammer doesn't have any maching marks on it what so ever,smooth as a new baby's behind.) and a lightened hammer spring. Smooth innards too.

I'm gonna keep both these I think. I just bought another one of GB auction, they told me it had dovetailed front sight and Latch. Here's hoping that it is the "Shooters Pistol" Model. ( http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=4098 ) The Gold Trigger has me thrown. Can't find one like that anywheres. Oh well I got it cheap enough if it shoots as well as it looks. Usually the "Shooter's Pistol has a silver plated TG. Who Knows.

[Old Dragoon]

SG,
They're both patina'd now! LOL
They were both blue guns. Both from Taylor's at different times. One in 2005, one in 2002(this is the shooter amoung the two, so far. Smooth action (hammer doesn't have any maching marks on it what so ever,smooth as a new baby's behind.) and a lightened hammer spring. Smooth innards too.

I'm gonna keep both these I think. I just bought another one of GB auction, they told me it had dovetailed front sight and Latch. Here's hoping that it is the "Shooters Pistol" Model. ( http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=4098 ) The Gold Trigger has me thrown. Can't find one like that anywheres. Oh well I got it cheap enough if it shoots as well as it looks. Usually the "Shooter's Pistol has a silver plated TG. Who Knows.

[Smokin_Gun]

Old Dragoon here's one I think you'll enjoy....on the Forgotten .44's.

Some of the forgotten .44s (and a couple of resurrected ones) include: (from left to right) .44-40, .44 Remington, .44 Colt, .44 Merwin & Hulbert, .44 Russian, .44 American, .44 Webley and .44 Bull Dog.


http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_han...forgotten_44s/

[Old Dragoon]

SG,
cool picture.
Someplace around my stuff I have one of each of those..except the Webly and Bulldog. Old West Moulds has components for the Webly, and I suppose the Bulldog too, as they use cutdown Colt 44 Cases (nowadays, anyway).

Last gunshow I attended in K.C. a friend gave me 6 original 44 Russian cartridges. in a baggy. I didn't think anything about it and shoved them in my pocket. Well I had frlown into K.C. from CA. I got to the airport, checked my baggage and guns in and went to the gate. This was before 9-11, I had gotten to the gate early and went to grab a cold one and a sandwich. I got back to the gate and realized that I still had those Russians in my pocket. OH! Crap! what do I do. I know they won't let me on with them if they knew so I stuck them in my billfold, luckily I had my cowboy hat on, I always wear that when i ;m flying to catch all the stuff that will set off the Metal detectors, change, belt buckle. etc. Anyway I jammed all the change, belt buckle, pens glasses, etc, and my billfold into the hat, handed the hat to the screener as I went thru the detector. she merely passed the hat around the detector and handed the hat back to me and didn't exray it. LOL So I still have 6 UMC 44 Russian Cartridges.
I don't or didn't condone my actions, but Neither did I want to throw away a little history or artifacts.
None of my shananigans would work today...thankfully.

[Smokin_Gun]

That was quick thinkin' you must have drank a BudWiser...LoL!

[Wayner]

Old Dragoon, you mentioned crimping your cases and I assume it to be for the 44 heeled bullet cartridges you make up. What method do you use to crimp those things? When you mentioned that the groove diameter was different in your two Rems I wondered what bullet diameter you are using. What's the diameter of the part of the bullet that shows outside the case? One other thing. What do you mean about cutting a dovetail trapazoidal to make the part fit tighter? (way back in the posts) I've used a mill with the dovetail cutter to cut dovetails and use the chisel method when a person wants the raised metal left with rifle sights ect. I read up there somewhere that your ejector and the shortened loading lever aren't compatable somehow. You shortened that barrel less than two inches right? I thought the notch in the loading lever for the ejector is cut just about where the web of the loading lever ends. I don't understand what the problem is or was. How much did you shorten the barrel on that Rem? Hello to Smokin-Gun!

[Smokin_Gun]

Nice ta see ya around over here Pard

[Smokin_Gun]

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[Smokin_Gun]

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[Smokin_Gun]

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[Old Dragoon]

My crimper is a modified Lee available from Old West Moulds Fruita, Co..The bullet had 3 driving bands 2 lube groovesinbetween the drive bands, the O.D. of the driving bands is .451 the Heel is .429(inside Dia of the 44 Colt Brass). There is a crimp groove between the heel and the last driving band. the first driving band is part of the Ogive.

Boy these cartridges shoot!
I did my first CAS match today and could only shoot the pistol targets. one miss in 3 stages, my time wasn't good at all because I had only one gun and had to reload between each stand on each stage. but what fun it is to shoot this cartridge and this gun. Our side match was cards. One double size playing card one regular size card. I prayed that I could at least hit the big one. First card I kept all five in the card, first shot dead on dead center...where I held. One flyer left in margin (I pulled it), all five could be covered with a regular playing card, four shots in the body of the Jack of Clubs, killed him dead.

Then the regular size card....All five inside the card or cutting the edge(2) 3 shots you could cover with a real silver dollar, killed the Jack of clubs Dead...all this from an old man, cold hands and less than 50 shots thru the gun total....This one will drive tacks when I work myself up to that level. WOW fun Day!

Using SPG lube and two pistols I believe I can shoot 4 stages without having to clean. I shot 3 today with one gun and it was beginning to bind, so I serviced it between the 3rd and 4th stage. I am going to try bore butter and see how that works. got some cleaning hints about Windex and vinegar too.


The trapazoidal cut is from right to left across the bbl like usual, or the other way if you like and is just the faintest that way, so you can still adjust for windage. It has been years since I hand cut one and I'm not done with this one yet.

Yep the ejector keeper falls just behind the round part of the rammer,just into the flat by 1/16 inch or less. right where my drill hole would fall. Will work my way arounfd that though. I took 2 inches off the bbl.

I had intended to just deepen the rammer keeper spring hole by the same dimension that it is originally after I cut the rammer off, but may not be able to do that because of the ejector keeper notch in the rammer. I haven't had time to address just what I can do yet.

You know the feeling, "OH! Crap! I messed up, how do I fix it" thing, then a couple days or hours later the fix comes to you. If I'd have thought this out first I could have just whacked off some of the lengeth of the ejector, but would lose the keeper on that. Worse comes to worse I can buy a new rammer and start over. or switch it out with anoter gun........He who makes no mistakes, doesn't do anything! LOL