Black-vs-Smokless?

ZVP · November 19, 2014, 06:56 PM

Why do BP cartridge loads develop so much
more power (ftlbs) than Smokeless factory cartridge loads do in .45 caliber?

mehavey · November 19, 2014, 07:28 PM

Huh ?

Where did that info come from ?
(Even for "factory"1873 45-70 standards, 42gr/3031 behind a 500gr Cast is as much as 150-200fps faster than 70gr* of 2Fg)

* That's if you could successfully compress a full 70gr sufficiently to fit in the case. Most of the time it's ~65gr)

ZVP · November 19, 2014, 11:06 PM

Guns of the Old West revolver tests. The BP shells almost always overpower smokeless at the range tests
I'm not making this up!

griz · November 20, 2014, 08:18 AM

When it comes to cartridges that were originally intended for Black Powder, most ammo companies load them conservatively so guns that are over 100 years old can fire them safely. Any competent handloader can exceed black powder velocities with smokeless if they know the round will be fired in a modern gun. Some smaller companies make such stout loads with warnings to fire them only in new guns.

**Mike Irwin** · November 20, 2014, 08:29 AM

What Griz said.

Winchester, Remington, etc., don't want someone grenading a gun with their factory loaded ammo.

Years ago Winchester did offer higher power versions of some of the older black powder cartridges specifically for use in its more modern rifles.

.38-40, .44-40, .32-20, and others were loaded to much higher velocities. Boxes were printed with warnings that the ammo was not to be used in handguns or older rifles.

People were no better than at heeding warnings then than they are now, and old guns were wrecked.

Here's a box of ammo from Winchester adapted specifically to the Model 92.

Loaded as such, it was signficantly more powerful than any black powder load.

mehavey · November 20, 2014, 08:35 AM

Here is Buff Bore 45-70/500gr (1,620fps)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/643...ProductFinding

and "10-X Cowboy" 45-70/500gr (1420fps)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/710...ProductFinding

Meanwhile, here's a reasonably "hot" (3Fg/65gr) 500gr BP load:

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...m=1202959756/0

I'd be very interested to see if anyone can find a link to that "Guns of the Old West" article/test

**Mike Irwin** · November 20, 2014, 08:41 AM

In a modern, high-quality handgun with slow-burning powders, it's possible to get both the .44-40 and the .45 Colt to 1,000 foot pounds of energy.

I wouldn't want to sent such a round through even a modern Colt 1873 reproduction, nor a Winchester 1873 repop.

November 19, 2014, 06:56 PM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Black-vs-Smokless? Why do BP cartridge loads develop so much more power (ftlbs) than Smokeless factory cartridge loads do in .45 caliber?

November 19, 2014, 07:28 PM	#2
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Huh ? Where did that info come from ? (Even for "factory"1873 45-70 standards, 42gr/3031 behind a 500gr Cast is as much as 150-200fps faster than 70gr* of 2Fg) * That's if you could successfully compress a full 70gr sufficiently to fit in the case. Most of the time it's ~65gr) Last edited by mehavey; November 19, 2014 at 07:51 PM.

November 20, 2014, 08:29 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	What Griz said. Winchester, Remington, etc., don't want someone grenading a gun with their factory loaded ammo. Years ago Winchester did offer higher power versions of some of the older black powder cartridges specifically for use in its more modern rifles. .38-40, .44-40, .32-20, and others were loaded to much higher velocities. Boxes were printed with warnings that the ammo was not to be used in handguns or older rifles. People were no better than at heeding warnings then than they are now, and old guns were wrecked. Here's a box of ammo from Winchester adapted specifically to the Model 92. Loaded as such, it was signficantly more powerful than any black powder load. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 20, 2014, 08:41 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	In a modern, high-quality handgun with slow-burning powders, it's possible to get both the .44-40 and the .45 Colt to 1,000 foot pounds of energy. I wouldn't want to sent such a round through even a modern Colt 1873 reproduction, nor a Winchester 1873 repop. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 19, 2014, 11:06 PM	#3
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Guns of the Old West revolver tests. The BP shells almost always overpower smokeless at the range tests I'm not making this up!

November 20, 2014, 08:18 AM	#4
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	When it comes to cartridges that were originally intended for Black Powder, most ammo companies load them conservatively so guns that are over 100 years old can fire them safely. Any competent handloader can exceed black powder velocities with smokeless if they know the round will be fired in a modern gun. Some smaller companies make such stout loads with warnings to fire them only in new guns.

November 20, 2014, 08:35 AM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Here is Buff Bore 45-70/500gr (1,620fps) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/643...ProductFinding and "10-X Cowboy" 45-70/500gr (1420fps) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/710...ProductFinding Meanwhile, here's a reasonably "hot" (3Fg/65gr) 500gr BP load: http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...m=1202959756/0 I'd be very interested to see if anyone can find a link to that "Guns of the Old West" article/test