June 27, 2012, 10:21 AM | #2401 | |
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I think the article in Fortune magazine will encourage other news publications to start taking a serious look at F&F. When reporters from Forbes, Wall Street Journal and Businessweek start delving into the whole story more - it's just more of an opportunity for the truth to come out.
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June 27, 2012, 10:23 AM | #2402 | |
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If Operation Wide Receiver was stupid then Fast and Furious was even more stupider. |
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June 27, 2012, 12:10 PM | #2403 | |
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If this is an unsubstantiated political witch-hunt on Grassley's part, why have the Acting Director of the ATF and the US Attorney for Arizona stepped down? Good try, but no cigar.
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June 27, 2012, 12:43 PM | #2404 | |
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From these she basically concludes that the ATF never intentionally walked guns, that the NRA is to blame, that John Dodson did intentionally walk guns (not sure how she squared this with #1 in her mind; but not the only example of contradictory information). From my perspective, the most interesting part of the story is that she lays the blame for ATF being hamstrung at the feet of Emory Hurley and Dennis Burke. According to her version of the story, basically no amount of evidence was sufficient for them to prosecute and without a prosecutor's approval, ATF agents could not seize weapons. So for example, when the guy on food stamps bought $300,000 worth of guns in a few months, and the prosecutors did not find this suffiicient probable cause, ATF could do nothing. In fact, Burke had dropped Jaime Avila (the man who purchased the guns that were found at Agent Terry's murder) from the indictment for Fast and Furious for lack of evidence. He was only added back to the indictment after Terry's death (and convicted on the same evidence deemed lacking). One of the many problems I had with this story is that the reporter continually used subjective adjectives (weak, ineffective) to describe gun laws or penalties for violating them; but didn't share the actual laws with the reader. For example, she states there is no federal firearms law for trafficking firearms; but she doesn't tell the reader that it is illegal to knowingly transfer a firearm to a prohibited person (nor does she mention how FBI rigged the NICS system to sell directly to prohibited people). She tells the reader about straw purchasing very loosely but says the penalties are "weak." She doesn't tell the reader that you can get up to 10 years in a federal prison for it. She blames the NRA for not allowing "a centralized database of firearms sales (i.e. registration), which tends to make her bias a bit apparent to me. Finally, she points out that Dennis Burke (1994 AWB staffer who in a 1997 interview called stricter gun laws his most proud achievement at that point in his life) and Emory Hurley (his assistant) repeatedly refused attempts to prosecute the straw purchasers in theses cases. In fact, they didn't even indict for six months after agents had made an argument to close the case. She accuses them of being too friendly with "gun culture." She also points out that the target of the case was an FBI informant funding the purchases with FBI money. Yet somehow she reaches the conclusion that the claims that Fast and Furious was being used to drum up support for increased gun control is "far-fetched" - even though the Administration did exactly that as a result. One of the few interesting points she brings up is her article highlights the importance of the wiretap applications. It appears that in an effort to provide enough proof that Burke or Hurley would prosecute, the ATF proposed to wiretap the straw purchasers in order to provide the requisite evidence of intent (one guy directing another guy to buy for him). However, despite the fact that wiretaps in other cities were being processed in 24 hours, these wiretaps were taking weeks or months - and within a week of the first one being approved, the subject switched to a new phone, causing the whole process to restart. All in all, the reporter who wrote that story strikes me as biased and generally ignorant about guns and Fast and Furious. She heard one side of the case; but other than making a token effort to contact the other 7 agents on the case (all of whom declined to be interviewed), she didn't try to get or even tell the other side of the story. |
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June 27, 2012, 02:05 PM | #2405 | |
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The new propaganda piece ignores a critical thing about Voth:
His relationship with gun dealers. For a guy who knew absolutely nothing about any guns walking, there were some interesting email exchanges. For example: Quote:
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June 27, 2012, 03:19 PM | #2406 | |
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I think sometimes I get so caught up in the conspiracy scheming and political scheming that I overlook the gross incompetence. |
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June 27, 2012, 03:24 PM | #2407 |
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The information has been covered by a few of the media but not many. Those that DO 'report' on it usually make it worse than just ignoring it; they spin it the way BO/Holder want it spun. Meaning they take the WH line that it's just a Republican "political witch hunt" and assure us F&F was all just a continuation of the previous administration - which it clearly was not.
The fact that there was NO effort made to track some 2.000+ improperly bought guns by known straw buyers on the BATF's specific say-so, and who then denied their own field officers permission to even try to follow them. There was NO BATF/DoJ coordination with Mexican law as Bush had done, NO concern for the Mexican lives that would certainly be lost and NO effort to warn our own Border Patrol of a tidal wave of illegal weapons was heading their way. All that should have some effect on our "news media" but it doesn't, at least until now when there's a supposed 'political witch hunt' on for po' ol' Holder's head. (How do you think they would be reporting F&F if all those dead had occured on Bush's watch?) Well, FOX News IS reporting it, and fairly regularly. But even they keep calling it a 'gun tracking program gone wrong." Fact is, it "went wrong" because it started wrong, it was designed only for political antigun purposes and it was never a gun "tracking program". Last edited by wncchester; June 27, 2012 at 03:41 PM. |
June 27, 2012, 03:34 PM | #2408 |
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Maybe more truth comes out of Eban's article than she ever intended.
Like the tactic of letting guns walk - Dennis Burke's behavior makes no sense if they were trying to incarcerate straw purchasers. On the other hand, if the intent was merely to have guns pile up at crime scenes - Burke's behavior does make sense. |
June 27, 2012, 03:58 PM | #2409 |
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I think Luger_carbine is thinking along the same lines I was reading Eban's piece.
In related news, 4 of the 31 Democrats who signed the letter calling for Holder to turn over the Fast and Furious information have indicated they will vote for the contempt resolution: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/23...r-in-contempt- Interestingly enough, Rep. Collin Peterson (MN-D) is voting for the measure even though his seat is considered safe this election. Most of the other Dems voting in support are in borderline districts where the constituency is upset. Nice to see someone value integrity above party loyalty. |
June 27, 2012, 03:59 PM | #2410 |
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"...if the intent was merely to have guns pile up at crime scenes - Burke's behavior does make sense."
Exactly |
June 27, 2012, 04:32 PM | #2411 | |
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I was pleasantly surprised to see one of my state's Democratic Representatives say he'll be voting for contempt.
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June 27, 2012, 05:27 PM | #2412 | |
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June 27, 2012, 06:40 PM | #2413 |
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So, the gurus on MSNBC totally by the Fortune article as an exoneration of Holder and the ATF. They also think the fear that the administration is antigun is paranoid. There is some questioning of why, if the exculpatory report is so clear, that the DOJ couldn't come up with this before and Fortune had to. Holder's buddy says that is because the DOJ works very slowly and carefully. They buy that rather than the article is BS.
Holder stated he wanted to redo the AWB - he was shut down by the Pres. for political reasons. But Representatives voting for contempt for political reasons vs. gun sporters are bad. Thus, the Pres. must be bad for shutting up Holder. Just amazing turns in logic.
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June 27, 2012, 07:57 PM | #2414 | |
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June 27, 2012, 10:24 PM | #2415 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon |
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June 27, 2012, 11:02 PM | #2416 |
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I have been writing on other forums, (POLITICAL and News) over the past few weeks. Most of my work has been comparing F&F with Watergate.
I see the Obama Administration using the same arguments and tactics that Nixon used in his defense of Watergate. With the claim of Executive Privilege, My belief that the White House was deeply involved in the F&F operation has been strengthened. To me it is inconceivable that the disparate and often conflicted agency's needed to allow this operation to proceed could have reached agreement without "adult supervision from the President." Those agencies include, but not limited to, the AG, Sect of State and Sect of Homeland Security. The AG had to be involved to get the FBI on board with the ATF. |
June 27, 2012, 11:04 PM | #2417 | |
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Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill) |
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June 27, 2012, 11:18 PM | #2418 | |
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June 28, 2012, 12:23 PM | #2419 |
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An article appearing in today's edition of The Pittsb8urgh Post-Gazette, page A-10 thereof, makes interesting reading, said article headlined Agent who started "Fast and Furious" defends ATF gunrunning operation. The agent referenced turns out to be none other than William D. Newell, onetime head of the ATF office in Phoenix Az.
The article was by-lined The Washington Post, which precluded it's appearing at the P-G's on-line edition, and no date for it's publication in the Post is indicated. Readers who come upon a hard copy of The P-G might take a moment and read the article, which whitewashes AG Holder and The White House. Re Mr. Newell's comments, the following comes to mind. Liar, liar, pants on fire. |
June 28, 2012, 12:41 PM | #2420 | ||
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The Wash Post link went bad. Heres another link: http://www.pressherald.com/news/nati...012-06-28.html Quote:
Last edited by thallub; June 28, 2012 at 01:09 PM. |
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June 28, 2012, 01:16 PM | #2421 |
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If Newell had dismantled anything, he might have an excuse for the multiple felonies perped by himself and others in handling the firearms, and for the management up the chain in sanctioning this conduct, then trying to hide it.
As it is, he can write all the self-acquittals he wants. Nothing changes. Obama, Holder, Napolitano all want to pretend there is nothing to see, and the determination which they have displayed to keep the **** buried indeed defines it as a ****, a bad one, with Newell's prints all over it. In this life or the next, accounts will be settled.
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June 28, 2012, 01:40 PM | #2422 |
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Newell is not even entitled to the Adolph Eichmann defense: "I was only following orders".
Last edited by thallub; June 28, 2012 at 01:58 PM. |
June 28, 2012, 03:15 PM | #2423 |
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What gets me is that Napolitano, Holder, Obama, and Hillary, have not even provided any "fake" outrage over a program which dumped firearms into a foreign nation without their knowledge or approval. Unless of course, they had knowledge and had at least given tacit approval or stayed out of it all together for specific reasons. Napolitano, when first called in to testify to congress, was asked if she had contacted BP Agent Terry's family, to which she had to sheepishly reply, "No." He worked in her organization. He was killed as a result of a program which she SHOULD have been notified about, as the head of Homeland Security. Yet, she takes no action to contact his family to offer any apologies or condolences. I suspect she knew exactly what was going on. Once it broke open, she hid in the shadows as much as she could. Hillary hasn't said BOO about it, though she was crowing about "illegal" weapons flowing into Mexico and how that must be stopped. Well, Hillary, what have you to say now? (Crickets chirping).
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June 28, 2012, 03:50 PM | #2424 |
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Holder held in contempt of Congress. 2 Republicans voted "No", 17 Democrats voted "Yes", 109 Dems abstained/did not vote.
Roll Call Vote #441: http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.aspx 255-67 (1 voted Present, 109 Not Voting) The "No" votes are: Baldwin Barber Berkley Berman Bishop (NY) Blumenauer Bonamici Braley (IA) Capps Cohen Connolly (VA) Cooper Costello Courtney Cuellar DeFazio DeLauro Deutch Dicks Dingell Doggett Eshoo Farr Green, Gene Heinrich Higgins Himes Hirono Holden Holt Langevin Larsen (WA) LaTourette Loebsack Lofgren, Zoe Luján Lynch McDermott McNerney Michaud Miller (NC) Miller, George Moran Murphy (CT) Nadler Pastor (AZ) Perlmutter Quigley Rigell Rothman (NJ) Ryan (OH) Sanchez, Loretta Schrader Schwartz Sherman Shuler Slaughter Smith (WA) Speier Sutton Thompson (CA) Tierney Tsongas Visclosky Wasserman Schultz Waxman Welch |
June 28, 2012, 04:17 PM | #2425 | |
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atf , fast and furious |
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