Shady grease gun

Spahrtan · September 21, 2006, 06:50 PM

I was running out of the gunstore the other day after leaving the range (they were closing by i wanted to get a quick walk-through in). They have a "GM M3A1 Grease gun" for $1060. Clearly is a semi-auto at that price but it only has the normal short barrel and the wire buttstock.

They dont deal in any autos or SBRs or AOWs. Am i wrong in thinking this is a SBR? Just curious.

MisterPX · September 21, 2006, 10:23 PM

It sure sounds like a SBR. Strange part is the GM stamping, not Valkrie Arms. Almost sounds like a dealer sample, but you're sure they don't deal in NFA?

Spahrtan · September 22, 2006, 01:20 PM

I've never seen anything in there. They're very much a discount gun store. Carry lots of high-points and the like. But they get some excellent used goodies which Im lucky enough to snag sometimes. At a price of ~$1000 though, could it really be a dealer sample? I dont know, i'll try to swing in there tomorrow and have a closer look.

shaggy · September 22, 2006, 03:24 PM

Maybe its just a fake/non-gun?

If so (and you don't want it), and it still has usable parts, please let me know - I need a greasegun parts kit.

Johnny Guest · September 22, 2006, 06:48 PM

I've never handled one of the long barrel Valkyrie semiautos, so I may be all wrong here, but - -
When UZI was selling the 16" semi only carbines, they sold a dummy barrel of conventional length, for display purposes only - - It was not chambered, or bored all the way through. Any firing had to be done with the long barrel. Perhaps this M3A1 is something of the sort.

The vast majority (ALL??) of the M3 and M3A1 SMGs were produced by the General Motors Guide Lamp Division, so this may be the source of the title they use in the shop. It is unclear from your post? Is the marking "GM M3A1 Grease gun" on a store tag or label, or is some of that marking stamped into the metal?

If the latter, they may be selling a "dummy gun" built up with some real parts and a non-functioning receiver.

I believe you may rest assured of two things:
1. No licensed, transferable, fully operational M3A1 would sell for $1060.
2. No regular gun store would take a chance on openly offering for sale an illegal weapon. If it is an SBR, they would require that you complete the proper federal forms before even getting CLOSE to a transfer.

Best,
Johnny

James K · September 22, 2006, 07:54 PM

Incredible as it sounds, some places that sell guns actually don't know the law or don't know enough to recognize a machinegun when they see it. I have seen a live Chauchat and a live Japanese Type 11 in (different) antique shops, and unregistered DEWATS in gun stores after '68 when the dealers had no idea that they weren't still non-guns. One dealer told me his "display only" MG.34 (unregistered) DEWAT had to be OK, as it was ignored by BATFE in compliance inspections as soon as they saw it was welded.

Jim

Spahrtan · September 23, 2006, 02:45 PM

It was a "decommissioned war trophy" but they had "all the right paperwork" and "it got snatched up pretty quick"

James K · September 23, 2006, 06:43 PM

If the gun was a registered DEWAT, "all the right paperwork" would be a Form 4 application to transfer, just like a live machinegun. And the buyer could "snatch it up" in several months, unless BATFE has really speeded up the process.

If that "decommissioned war trophy" was completely "demilled" with the receiver torch-cut into pieces, there would be no paperwork involved at all.
If it was a DEWAT, with only the barrel welded, it would have had to have been registered just like a live gun.

I think that shop may be (probably unknowingly) in violation of the law and flirting with loss of license and a severe penalty. If they are friends, a word to the wise might be a good idea.

One advantage of buying a registered DEWAT, if one can be obtained at a good price, is that it is already registered and can be opened up on payment of a $200 tax. Contact BATFE for particulars.

Jim

Spahrtan · September 24, 2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

I think that shop may be (probably unknowingly) in violation of the law and flirting with loss of license and a severe penalty. If they are friends, a word to the wise might be a good idea.

I've seen them first hand do at least a half dozen exchanges that SCREAMED straw purchase. I'll just say that a lot of swarthy folk come up from downtown, drive right past the more reasonably priced gander mountain, and come to this store.

The 4 guys who work there are a 50/50 split between real nice guys and total....jerks. But even the 2 nice guys KNOW they know EVERYTHING regarding laws and guns. No telling them anything.

FirstFreedom · September 26, 2006, 11:35 AM

Sounds like your questioning of the item caused them to (between your visits) get concerned, pull it from the floor, and then come up with the story of it being DEWAT, registered/legal, and sold.

**Mike Irwin** · September 26, 2006, 12:40 PM

An authentic, working grease gun will bring what, close to $10,000 these days?

Not many made it out of the government system.

FirstFreedom · September 26, 2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

An authentic, working grease gun will bring what, close to $10,000 these days?

Transferable one, yes. But...

An authentic, working grease gun (that is non-transerable legally), in a shady pawn shop or small gun shop that picked it for $200 (from the widow of a WW2 GI who brought it in), and wants to get rid of it as fast as possible, to turn a quick buck, and just call in in ordinary 4473 on it, may run right about one grand. They've got bills to pay, and will probably never get a BATFE audit. Just a possibility I'm throwing out there. Or better yet, have the buyer fill out the form, go to the back and get on the phone. Order a pizza instead of calling NICS, stamp approved, complete transaction, pocket money, shred 4473. No trace. Next year, BATFE says "Hey we caught this guy with full auto, no license; says he bought it at your store." "Hmmm, never seen him before." "Kinda what we figured; sorry to bother you."

Actually, there is no BATFE any more, is there - they are a division of D.H.S. now - what's their official name or acronym, anyone know?

Spahrtan · September 26, 2006, 07:24 PM

Honestly, the above wouldnt supprise me at all. :barf:

James K · September 26, 2006, 08:35 PM

There certainly is still a BATFE and they still do the same jobs. They were moved from the Treasury Department to the Justice Department (not DHS).

The original agency was the Alcohol Tax Division (ATD) of the Internal Revenue Service because their job was to collect taxes on alcohol. They first became noted (or notorious) as the "revenooers", charged with busting up illegal stills, an occupation with about the same level of risk as patrolling Baghdad.

When Congress enacted a tobacco tax, they were named the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division (ATTD) of the IRS. In the meantime, they had also been given responsibility for enforcement of the federal gun laws (the NFA and FFA), because those laws were snuck through as "tax" laws. But it was not until they became a bureau (higher up on the organizational chart than a mere IRS division) that "Firearms" was added to the name and they became the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Still later, they were given responsibility for enforcing federal explosives laws and investigating crimes involving explosives, and that, too, was added on.

The move to Justice was something of a compromise. Treasury didn't really want the heat they brought, and many lawmakers wanted to abolish BATFE altogether and transfer their duties to the FBI, something the FBI didn't want either. So they were moved into Justice, as rather uncomfortable bedfellows with the FBI, but without being part of that agency. The official line, of course, is that everyone is just fine and very happy to be working together to enforce the laws and protect the citizens. Of course all those intelligence and crime fighting agencies get along well and cooperate fully in guarding our nation. (If you believe that, I have this ocean front lot in Kansas...)

Jim

3 weelin geezer · September 27, 2006, 10:29 AM

Perhaps its one of those movie prop guns they sell on S/G news. Or its a reproduction model that doesnt actually fire. As they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

3 weelin geezer · September 27, 2006, 11:08 AM

Perhaps its one of those movie prop guns they sell on S/G news. Or its a reproduction model that doesnt actually fire. As they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

tal35 · October 8, 2006, 02:00 PM

Well, here is the answer to the greasegun. Yes it is a registered dewat, I bought it and am waiting on paperwork to clear. It was dewatted in the 60's and was on a form 5. It is an M3, not m3a1 as mentioned, and belonged to an attorney here in town, who did not want it anymore. I am going to reactivate it after I file the needed paperwork and the paperwork comes back.

CleverNickname · October 8, 2006, 04:37 PM

Good one for you. A dewat M3 for $1060 is a steal.

tal35 · October 8, 2006, 04:41 PM

When its rewatted it is around $17-20k gun, also has brit. proofs from lend lease

Spahrtan · October 9, 2006, 10:17 AM

Guess i didnt give those guys enough credit, good buy!

GeorgeF · October 20, 2006, 03:32 PM

Wow, talk about your finds! Good for you! Post pics when you get them.

September 21, 2006, 06:50 PM	#1
Spahrtan Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 86	Shady grease gun I was running out of the gunstore the other day after leaving the range (they were closing by i wanted to get a quick walk-through in). They have a "GM M3A1 Grease gun" for $1060. Clearly is a semi-auto at that price but it only has the normal short barrel and the wire buttstock. They dont deal in any autos or SBRs or AOWs. Am i wrong in thinking this is a SBR? Just curious.

September 22, 2006, 06:48 PM	#5
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Couple of possibilities - - - I've never handled one of the long barrel Valkyrie semiautos, so I may be all wrong here, but - - When UZI was selling the 16" semi only carbines, they sold a dummy barrel of conventional length, for display purposes only - - It was not chambered, or bored all the way through. Any firing had to be done with the long barrel. Perhaps this M3A1 is something of the sort. The vast majority (ALL??) of the M3 and M3A1 SMGs were produced by the General Motors Guide Lamp Division, so this may be the source of the title they use in the shop. It is unclear from your post? Is the marking "GM M3A1 Grease gun" on a store tag or label, or is some of that marking stamped into the metal? If the latter, they may be selling a "dummy gun" built up with some real parts and a non-functioning receiver. I believe you may rest assured of two things: 1. No licensed, transferable, fully operational M3A1 would sell for $1060. 2. No regular gun store would take a chance on openly offering for sale an illegal weapon. If it is an SBR, they would require that you complete the proper federal forms before even getting CLOSE to a transfer. Best, Johnny

September 26, 2006, 12:40 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	An authentic, working grease gun will bring what, close to $10,000 these days? Not many made it out of the government system. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 8, 2006, 02:00 PM	#17
tal35 Junior Member Join Date: November 10, 2005 Posts: 7	greasegun Well, here is the answer to the greasegun. Yes it is a registered dewat, I bought it and am waiting on paperwork to clear. It was dewatted in the 60's and was on a form 5. It is an M3, not m3a1 as mentioned, and belonged to an attorney here in town, who did not want it anymore. I am going to reactivate it after I file the needed paperwork and the paperwork comes back. Last edited by tal35; October 8, 2006 at 02:04 PM. Reason: none

October 8, 2006, 04:41 PM	#19
tal35 Junior Member Join Date: November 10, 2005 Posts: 7	m3 When its rewatted it is around $17-20k gun, also has brit. proofs from lend lease

September 21, 2006, 10:23 PM	#2
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	It sure sounds like a SBR. Strange part is the GM stamping, not Valkrie Arms. Almost sounds like a dealer sample, but you're sure they don't deal in NFA?

September 22, 2006, 01:20 PM	#3
Spahrtan Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 86	I've never seen anything in there. They're very much a discount gun store. Carry lots of high-points and the like. But they get some excellent used goodies which Im lucky enough to snag sometimes. At a price of ~$1000 though, could it really be a dealer sample? I dont know, i'll try to swing in there tomorrow and have a closer look.

September 22, 2006, 03:24 PM	#4
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Maybe its just a fake/non-gun? If so (and you don't want it), and it still has usable parts, please let me know - I need a greasegun parts kit.

September 22, 2006, 07:54 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Incredible as it sounds, some places that sell guns actually don't know the law or don't know enough to recognize a machinegun when they see it. I have seen a live Chauchat and a live Japanese Type 11 in (different) antique shops, and unregistered DEWATS in gun stores after '68 when the dealers had no idea that they weren't still non-guns. One dealer told me his "display only" MG.34 (unregistered) DEWAT had to be OK, as it was ignored by BATFE in compliance inspections as soon as they saw it was welded. Jim

September 23, 2006, 02:45 PM	#7
Spahrtan Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 86	It was a "decommissioned war trophy" but they had "all the right paperwork" and "it got snatched up pretty quick"

September 23, 2006, 06:43 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If the gun was a registered DEWAT, "all the right paperwork" would be a Form 4 application to transfer, just like a live machinegun. And the buyer could "snatch it up" in several months, unless BATFE has really speeded up the process. If that "decommissioned war trophy" was completely "demilled" with the receiver torch-cut into pieces, there would be no paperwork involved at all. If it was a DEWAT, with only the barrel welded, it would have had to have been registered just like a live gun. I think that shop may be (probably unknowingly) in violation of the law and flirting with loss of license and a severe penalty. If they are friends, a word to the wise might be a good idea. One advantage of buying a registered DEWAT, if one can be obtained at a good price, is that it is already registered and can be opened up on payment of a $200 tax. Contact BATFE for particulars. Jim

September 26, 2006, 11:35 AM	#10
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	Sounds like your questioning of the item caused them to (between your visits) get concerned, pull it from the floor, and then come up with the story of it being DEWAT, registered/legal, and sold.

September 26, 2006, 07:24 PM	#13
Spahrtan Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 86	Honestly, the above wouldnt supprise me at all. :barf:

September 26, 2006, 08:35 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There certainly is still a BATFE and they still do the same jobs. They were moved from the Treasury Department to the Justice Department (not DHS). The original agency was the Alcohol Tax Division (ATD) of the Internal Revenue Service because their job was to collect taxes on alcohol. They first became noted (or notorious) as the "revenooers", charged with busting up illegal stills, an occupation with about the same level of risk as patrolling Baghdad. When Congress enacted a tobacco tax, they were named the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division (ATTD) of the IRS. In the meantime, they had also been given responsibility for enforcement of the federal gun laws (the NFA and FFA), because those laws were snuck through as "tax" laws. But it was not until they became a bureau (higher up on the organizational chart than a mere IRS division) that "Firearms" was added to the name and they became the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Still later, they were given responsibility for enforcing federal explosives laws and investigating crimes involving explosives, and that, too, was added on. The move to Justice was something of a compromise. Treasury didn't really want the heat they brought, and many lawmakers wanted to abolish BATFE altogether and transfer their duties to the FBI, something the FBI didn't want either. So they were moved into Justice, as rather uncomfortable bedfellows with the FBI, but without being part of that agency. The official line, of course, is that everyone is just fine and very happy to be working together to enforce the laws and protect the citizens. Of course all those intelligence and crime fighting agencies get along well and cooperate fully in guarding our nation. (If you believe that, I have this ocean front lot in Kansas...) Jim

September 27, 2006, 10:29 AM	#15
3 weelin geezer Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2004 Posts: 438	Perhaps its one of those movie prop guns they sell on S/G news. Or its a reproduction model that doesnt actually fire. As they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

September 27, 2006, 11:08 AM	#16
3 weelin geezer Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2004 Posts: 438	Perhaps its one of those movie prop guns they sell on S/G news. Or its a reproduction model that doesnt actually fire. As they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

October 8, 2006, 04:37 PM	#18
CleverNickname Member Join Date: August 3, 2002 Posts: 69	Good one for you. A dewat M3 for $1060 is a steal.

October 9, 2006, 10:17 AM	#20
Spahrtan Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 86	Guess i didnt give those guys enough credit, good buy!

October 20, 2006, 03:32 PM	#21
GeorgeF Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2004 Posts: 572	Wow, talk about your finds! Good for you! Post pics when you get them.