The Guns that Criminals Carry - Know yourself/Know your enemy

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Since the little pocket guns are a touch harder to shoot - I might suggest those who carry them might practice or train with such. I know the training issue is touchy with some. But since I do carry a J or G42 at times, I took the time to practice with it. I do prefer a 9mm Glock though and can manage it in TX heat.

[Dragline45]

I dont look down on those who dont carry a full size gun, but it is annoying to be constantly told, that you cant, by those who dont. That gets old too. Normally, when you bring up the fact that its easily done, you dont hear the end of it, and its usually from those who have little, if any experience doing so.

I have never seen a single person on this forum say it cant be done, what you often hear is that it is not as comfortable or not as concealable, there is absolutely no disputing that. When shoving something in your waistband 12hrs a day, the thinner, smaller, and lighter the object is, the more comfortable it will be. The smaller it is, the easier it is to conceal. That's not to say you can't conceal a full sized handgun as you absolutely can, though as far as comfort goes, what you may find comfortable day in and day out, others may not.

[leadcounsel]

Problem:

Large high capacity pistols require large pistols. Large pistols are difficult and uncomfortable to conceal and carry.
...
Be honest with your self, think back, do you always have access to your SD weapon, while safely keeping it out of reach of children (like in your pocket)?
__________________

A person can carry a modern polymer pistol with 10+ round capacity in a very easy and light package weighing under 3 pounds, with backup mags too. They weigh less than steel framed revolvers having less capacity.

There is no excuse not to carry, unless the law prevents it.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

A person can carry a modern polymer pistol with 10+ round capacity in a very easy and light package weighing under 3 pounds, with backup mags too. They weigh less than steel framed revolvers having less capacity.

There is no excuse not to carry, unless the law prevents it.

This.

Also, it's not looking down on anybody. It's simply stating facts. It is not within your best interest to carry such a little gun with such a little bit of capacity. When there are criminals out there that attack in packs. If law enforcement officers have an 85% chance of missing their target, what do you think you might have? Especially with only five or eight rounds and no spare in sight? You guys don't have to get so butt hurt, just trying to help out. It's much more productive to carry a full size pistol, or at least one with a higher capacity. Having to change bags under stress while someone is shooting at you, if not have any change for can really work against you. Having no magazine to change into to begin with is dangerous. And the childish jokes about a man's downstairs package, that can be left for a more immature forum. We're all grown men here, correct?

[Deja vu]

I carry a J-frame. Its always in my pocket from the time I Wake up till I go to bed. When I am in bed its in a biometric safe on the back of my bed out of view. Even when I am showering its right there hidden under the towel.

In addition I also carry 2 8 round speed strips. I Was told that they would not work but they seem to work well.

As far as practice. Every time I go to the range I always make sure I shoot at least 2 cylinders from my CCW. Even if I am shooting skeet or my Hunting rifles. I go to the range nearly every Saturday unless I am on vacation.

If law enforcement officers have an 85% chance of missing their target, what do you think you might have?

as a past law enforcement officer I can assure you that many (if not most) police don;t practice as much as a civilian that is in to guns. I saw many an officer that would go to the range a few times right before it was time to qualify then never shoot again until the time was coming around to requailfy.

[Tactical Jackalope]

They're a lot less officers than there are citizens.

As being on that law enforcement side temporarily, I've seen the same. Though in Miami.. there's a huge chunk of officers that train very, very often. High risk.

There's a member here that I am personal friends with, he husband in law enforcement for just over a year if I'm not mistaken. He was a gun enthusiast prior to becoming a police officer, and he still trains very often.

But yeah, a lot of officers don't practice and a lot of citizens don't either.

There are just a lot more citizens that don't in numbers, compared to the officers that don't in numbers.

[samsmix]

^ That.

Frankly, most police types I've shot with, aren't as good as me, and I'm no great shakes. I do shoot though. I've seen more trigger slapping, grip milking, and just plain flinching on training and qualification courses as anywhere else.

I concede that a full size gun is better. Hell my full size CCW is a K-frame, and it actually holds one less than my pocket gun...but it hits harder and is easier to shoot well. Don't get me wrong though; when the Zombies come or ISIS decides it will attack in force, I'll get a double stack 5" somethin'orother. For civilian social interaction, I feel fine.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Guys, the shooting you guys are talking about is not the same as the training that a police officer gets. There's shooting at paper targets that do not move, shoot back, or do anything besides just sit there. And there's training under stress, while moving, and inducing the stress of getting shot at. It is reckless to compare paper punching against actual training for defense. And it is deadly to think they are anywhere on the same planet.

[samsmix]

I'm not comparing paper punching. I'm comparing shoot and move techniques, one handed & weak handed shooting, both on a 360° range, as well as qualification scores on a static range.

Don't get me wrong though, while tjey were the minority, some of them were gunfighters in every sense of the word.

[FireForged]

I dont really care what gun the other guy is using.. I dont want to get hit with a 22 or a 44mag but the contest is not between our guns its between fighting prowess of 2 individuals. I will focus my efforts on knowing my weapon, being proficient in its use and allowing good common sense to afford me the best chance to avoid conflict altogether. I dont carry a gun based on what I think other people carry, I carry a gun that I know I will carry and can use well. Thats all.

[A pause for the COZ]

I dont know, I think this article leave some questions unanswered.

I would rather know about all the instances were a CC holder had to use his weapon.
What guns were used, What calibers, how many shots fired.
What were the results?
Real facts based on likely situations we may find our selves in.
The ones we do get to read. Usually only document very few rounds being expended before the event is concluded.
Most CC holders I know are not the spray and pray types. We know we are accountable for every round we fire. No matter the cause.

Using data from Gang land shoot outs were both sides are over armed and blasting the whole area.
Thats not useful data to me.
If for some reason, I think I may go into an area or situation that I may encounter multiple armed assailants with high volume fire arms.
I will plan accordingly. Arm and Armor up to the threat.

Right now I choose to carry a XD's 45. 6 rounds of meth head stopper.
At this point thats my most likely encounter.

I do carry a high cap 9mm with a couple spare mags when I go to the movies.
Again likely threats factored in.

[samsmix]

^ What Fire forged said. Fighting prowess. Boxers called is ring savvy. It was training, confidence, and experience all rolled into one. I conceede that bigger, higher cap guns tend to keep you in the fight longer, with less weapon manipulation. The reality though is that very few civilians get in "gunfights". What we get in is "shootings". Gunfights are rare....but I have spate mags for that. If I haven't found cover before my gun is empty, a high cap was unlikely to help. Getting killed with ammo in the gun is the same as getting killed without ammo in the gun. Movement and cover are the key.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by A pause for the COZ:

I would rather know about all the instances were a CC holder had to use his weapon.
What guns were used, What calibers, how many shots fired.
What were the results?
Real facts based on likely situations we may find our selves in.

All? N chance. There are two summaries that I know of that address civilian use of force incidents in which shots were fired.

One covered about five dozen incidents involving former trainees of Tom Givens' lasses. The other was compiled in what appears to have been another Tennessee municipality.

The data are too few, and the number of possible variables too large, to tell us much of anything useful.

If for some reason, I think I may go into an area or situation that I may encounter multiple armed assailants with high volume fire arms.
I will plan accordingly. Arm and Armor up to the threat.

The above-mentioned studies and the crime reports in our area indicate that, should one be attacked, the chances are not at all insignificant that two or more assailants will be involved.

I do not think that the capacity of their weapons should enter into the question. We know that handguns are not effective stoppers; that to effect a physical stop, we must damage something critical within the body--something small that we cannot see; and we can expect fast movement.

That leads us to realize that we may have to shoot a number of time very quickly indeed.

I suggest going to one of the simulation facilities such as those at the Gander Mountain Academies. Try a variety of scenarios.

The only real shortcoming is that they score any hit as a stop, and that is not very realistic.

[BlueTrain]

If you don't mind me saying so, five dozen sounds like a fairly good data base.

Instead of the firearms involved, I'd be more interested in learning why some people are assaulted or have their homes broken into. In reality, it rarely happens, though it certainly happens to some people. Do those people have anything in common? I also realize that crime rates are higher in some places than in others. At the same time, they are not what is often stated by people on forums. A post that begins with "since home invasions are rising" sends me looking for statistics.

Typically, the statement or the assumption is generally false, although it might be true in some places. Crime rates can be surprisingly different from what you think. Birmingham, Alabama, has higher crime rates than El Paso, Texas, for instance.

However, finding statistics to begin with can be difficult. Nowhere could I find statistics for counties (as opposed to municipalities). I did discover that crime rates in the small town in West Virginia are higher than where I live now, just outside Washington, D.C. And there are no crime statistics for "home invasions" because that is not a legal term.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by BlueTrain:

If you don't mind me saying so, five dozen sounds like a fairly good data base.

Depends upon your objectives,

If you are trying to study "what guns were used, what calibers, how many shots fired, what were the results?" to evaluate how many rounds may be needed--mean, mode, and distribution-- to cause two violent criminal actors to cease and desist, no. Too many variables. The body is a complex thing. The nature of the wounds is rarely recorded except in cases of homicide or officer involved shootings. Distances vary. The speed of shooting is not known.

Instead of the firearms involved, I'd be more interested in learning why some people are assaulted or have their homes broken into.

Not a bad idea. The number of variables would probably be smaller. But the number of incidents is still very limited.

[fastbolt]

First of all, there's something like 18K state & local LE agencies in the US, covering a lot of geography, ranging from rural to urban and all mixes imaginable. Lots of potential for variable experience, which means a fair potential for varying "results" regarding observing the weapons used by folks of criminal inclination, the experience of criminals with firearms and trying to make predictions.

I'd not disagree with the comments and opinions kraigwy has posted in this thread. BTDT. Looking at "trends" over the course of 25-30+ years tends to give someone a potentially pragmatic "long view".

Yes, snapshots of current "trends" may certainly be valuable for helping to learn to address issues (for local LE). However, does anyone want to guarantee that "hiccups" in patterns that occur locally, or may only be the result of short-term "trends" favored among some criminals in some geographical areas, may not distract from the larger picture that appears over time?

Even the FBI's UCR statistics warn against trying to apply them to specific population areas (and for good reasons).

Then again, people can always pick up and move/travel ... and both criminals and their victims are drawn from among the greater group of people. Things can change.

Listening to the situations and trends reported in LEOKA training (law enforcement officers killed and assaulted) can help working LE better understand what's been observed and learned (from interviewing) from convicted criminals, but I'm unaware of anything similar for private citizens.

All the talk about always having a dedicated defensive weapon on someone's person from 'eyes open' to 'eyes closed' is all well and good, but most people don't live their lives in the constant state of being a warrior of Sparta.

Also, firearms used in the role of dedicated defensive weapons are still just gear, in the larger picture.

Knowledge, mindset and training (initial and recurrent) are still higher on the food chain than simple gear considerations, day in and day out.

FWIW, one of the advantages that may be found in properly organized and structured training classes (besides the obvious potential for hopefully improving one's skillsets) is that some of these side questions may be answered over time.

[FITASC]

Carry enough gun. I know a lot of you are okay with a 5-9 shot pistol and sometimes not even with a spare handy. I could never do that.

If you really undergunned without several guns, reloads, etc., perhaps a safer locale to live and work is in order? I wouldn't want to live with that daily stress and fear.

[armoredman]

Originally Posted by kraigwy

Large high capacity pistols require large pistols. Large pistols are difficult and uncomfortable to conceal and carry.

They are too often taken off the person, and left in the car, left on the bedroom stand or put in a "quick release" gun safe to protect kids in the home.

People are going to chime in and say I always carry mine, its not that uncomfortable, etc. etc. but if they are honest with them selves (even though they wont admit it here) all too often they don't have their pistol/revolver on their person.

Sorry, but I hadda do it - snapped this facing the last post on this thread as I was reading it, from FITASC.



Yes, I carry all the time, in or out of the house. I also have layered security and don't believe in walking around in a Condition White, either. And that IS very much a full size pistol, with an 18 round magazine in place. Just sayin'...and yes, I realize I am not your typical civilian gun owner.

[OldMarksman]

Actually, it doesn't really matter one whit what an evil doer may choose as a weapon. Nor does it matter what kinds of firearms others may have used effectively for self defense.

What matters, if for some real your best intentions of avoiding trouble have led to nought, are (1) whether you notice danger and react in time, and (2) whether you have and are able to use effectively a firearm that is adequate in terms of penetration and capacity.

[Tactical Jackalope]

If you really undergunned without several guns, reloads, etc., perhaps a safer locale to live and work is in order? I wouldn't want to live with that daily stress and fear.

Then don't.

[FITASC]

And I don't..........and won't either......

[AK103K]

....perhaps a safer locale to live and work is in order?

What fairy tale land is that?

Ive lived and worked all over the US, in big cities, uban/suburban suburbs, and currently in a very rural area, and EVERY place has its problems, and those problems can occur at any time. You have no control over that.

I wouldn't want to live with that daily stress and fear.

Stress and fear are what you make of them. What stress's and brings fear to one, is nothing to another.

[Tactical Jackalope]

AK103K

Could not have said it better. I've been tired lately between my IG and my Facebook page, with the going back and forth.

I see it as a truck getting 250 miles per tank. Your destination is 300 miles away. Won't you stop at some point to fill up so you don't come up short?

It's baffling how someone can feel confident with themselves in this day and age with on 5-9 rounds. They either have to change mags or a cylinder. Which is a little harder under stress.

I don't know a single person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun. It's unheard of. Have yet to see or hear about it. I know an SF guy who carries a Glock 21 with 1 spare magazine. Cops who carry 9mm's with at least 1 or 2 spare magazines.

I'm not about to spill my guts on here either. A few forum members that I'm friends with here know enough. Not to measure, not at all. They're just so many reasons to carry an adequate setup vs not to.

Multiple attackers. (Usually always the case if you're pulling your gun)

Missed shots. (Stress induced)

Jams. (Double feeds, stove pipes, etc)

Bad rounds. (Bad primers)

Bad magazine. (Achilles heel to semi-auto's)

Magazine falling out when drawing. (Stress induced, mag release pushed on accident)

etc, etc, etc.... There's a reason classes go over all this stuff. Because it happens.

The "fear" part is laughable by the way. Doesn't deter anyone from carrying anything less than usual because you said that.

AK said it so well.. fantasy.. 1 bad guy, 7 yards away, standing still, boom.

Yeah.. okay. -_____-

[armoredman]

I dimly remember some story about an IDPA Master shooter who was involved in a shootout with a J frame, and missed every round, or almost every round?

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime...40521212359155

[9x18_Walther]

I found it amusing that 2% were loaded with the wrong ammunition.

This is a M&P 22 that was stolen and then returned to its owner. Obviously, some criminals intend to intimidate only.

http://imgur.com/a/uUwEX