New to Reloading question

Mcewza · December 31, 2018, 05:20 PM

Hey hope this is a pretty simple question with a simple answer. I just started reloading and made my first 3 .308 rounds last night. I used cci 200 large rifle primers, 37 gr of imr 3031, and a hornady 180gr bullet. I got the data from hodgdon reloading. Should 37 gr of imr 3031 reach the shoulder of the case? It seemed to me that there really isn't that much room in the case and the data called for a max load of 44 gr, which seems to me would fill the case. I'm sorry if this is something that has been gone over before.
On a second note, the equipment and supplies I bought used happens to have about 8 lbs of Red Dot and a few hundred 30 caliber speer 100 gr plinkers.
I read about "The Load" and was curious if I would need the full 13 gr of Red Dot for a 100 gr bullet or if I should dial it down to 10 gr.
Thanks for any help you can supply!

Mike38 · December 31, 2018, 06:06 PM

The Hodgdon web site shows a start load of 37 gr of 3031, and a max load of 40.6 gr. So be careful with your information. IMR3031 is an longer cut extruded powder that may not be "stacking" well in the case. After you drop the powder charge, tap the case a few times and you will see the level go down as the sticks of powder align themselves in the case. I use IMR3031 in .223 and even the start loads fill the case to near the shoulder. I think you'll be fine at 37 gr. But do try 38 and 39. I find that just a bit above start load suggestion works best for me.

std7mag · December 31, 2018, 07:46 PM

As Mike38 says.
If there is a "C" on the load data for a powder means compressed.
Compressed os ok, so long as it's not over done.

If you are getting into compressed loads, you may want to crimp, as the powder will actually push the bullet further out, increasing your COAL.

RC20 · January 1, 2019, 04:55 PM

I would change that to CAN push the bullet out when you get into serious compression, not light.

Mcewza: The ignition part works better accuracy wise with fuller cases, 80% and to low can have pressure issues with some powders.

I would get more data (I can look it up a bit latter, I have LOTS of books (grin) - I like books and have versions going back a lot of years. I never throw a reload book away.

If Mike38 is right you do need to pay close attention and its another reason for at lest two resources for load data.

1. Ooopos, I got it wrong and the second one got my attention.

2. Ergh, they have a data bust and THEY got it wrong.

**Unclenick** · January 1, 2019, 05:05 PM

Mcewza,

Welcome to the forum.

3031 is low on density as stick powders go. That lets it fill a case well with a lighter charge weight than some others do. It's a relatively quick powder for 308 Win and won't get you the highest velocities within safe pressure limits, but it will work and let you get your feet wet with reloading. You can increase its packing density by setting cases on a vibrating surface like the top of a vibratory case cleaner, or by dropping them into the case through a long tube.

Welcome to an interesting hobby.

std7mag · January 2, 2019, 05:37 AM

Mcewza,

I would NOT do a charge of Red Dot!!!

At least not till Unclenick, and others have chimed in about it.

5whiskey · January 2, 2019, 07:10 AM

Red dot is a commonly used powder to make reduced rifle loads. I have never used it but there is tons of information on it. That's why it is called "the load." If I am to produce reduced power loads, I prefer H4895 to do so.

OP what are you trying to accomplish? At best, the red dot load for 308 is much closer to a straight up gallery load. Well under 30-30 power levels. If this is what you're after then have at it. I would not go down to 10 grains of red dot I would start at 14. You want at least 50% case fill and 10 grains won't do it. IIRC "the load" was actually 16 gns of red dot, but confirm with your source.

**Unclenick** · January 2, 2019, 11:33 AM

You can read about the development of "the load", here. Ed Harris limits it to cases with a capacity equal 30-40 Krag or greater and for guns with maximum pressure ratings of over 40,000 psi (so, not for 30-30). The average .308 Win case has a water overflow capacity that is a grain or two smaller than the average 30-40 Krag case, but with its much higher (62,000 psi) maximum pressure, it made Ed's list anyway.

The idea is that a super fast powder makes all its pressure right away and before the bullet moves much in the bore, so if you seat all your bullets to the same depth, it should hit that same pressure without regard for bullet weight. Progressive rifle powders don't behave that way, having their pressure increase significantly with bullet weight. In practice, though, Red Dot is fast, but not super-fast, like blank powder, and bigger bullets usually take up a little more space in the case and raise pressure some that way, so pressure does increase some with bullet size, but just not beyond what a 30-40 Krag (or a .308 Win) can withstand.

As an illustration of the principle, I put the 13-grain Red Dot load into QuickLOAD's model in a .308 Win case wit 5 grains water overflow capacity and gave it a 200-grain bullet seated 0.366" deep into the case and then changed only the weight to 14000 grains (2 lbs). The pressure stopped increasing with bullet weight at just over 45,300 psi, so that's what you would get with the bore plugged. The 100-grain Speer RN half-jacketed "plinker" bullet developed 33,900 psi, by comparison. So that light bullet starts to move before the Red Dot is fully burned, but no bullet weight is going to get you outside the .308 pressure range. It does suggest, however, that Ed Harris's 40,000 psi lower pressure limit should probably be moved up to 46,000 psi.

5whiskey · January 2, 2019, 01:57 PM

Ah it was 13 gns of red dot. 16 gns was the recommended point for 2400 in reduced cast bullet rifle loads. My bad.

cw308 · January 2, 2019, 02:28 PM

Mcewza
Also may be a factor is the case thickness , not all cases are the same thickness . FC cases are thicker , when I first started reloading 308 30+ years ago I was using Win & Rem. cases using IMR 4064 the powder filled to the base of the neck , using the same charge but first time using the Federal case the powder filled to the top of the neck . The case has less volume for being so thick , had to lower the charge by one grain from the listed anount in the book. Start at the low end of the scale with the recommended OAL of the bullet being used and increase your chances by .3 grains until you get good groupings with 5 shot groups . Go easy , one step at a time . If unsure just ask , that's what we are here for .

Chris

T. O'Heir · January 2, 2019, 02:39 PM

"...reach the shoulder of the case?..." Isn't something you need to worry about. Just follow your manual and you'll be fine.
As mentioned, 37 grains of IMR3031 is the Start load. You need to work up the load from there. Load 5 or a mag load if it's less and work up by half a grain to the Max load given in your manual.
"...or if I should..." What does your manual say? There are no jacketed bullet Red Dot rifle loads on Alliant's site.
"...8 lbs of Red Dot..." Do not buy anything in bulk until you have worked up a load.

Mcewza · January 3, 2019, 01:53 PM

Thank you for all the replies, I shot the imr 3031 loads and they performed just fine for my first reloads. First time shooting something I reloaded myself and I was a little unsure of how things should look through the process. I used the 13 gr of red dot with the speer 100 gr bullets and they shot just fine making it out of the barrel(the main thing I was worried about) and to the target. I am using that as a reduced recoil round (severely) to get my 8 year old's feet wet so to speak and get him behind a rifle. again thank you for your prompt replies.

zeke · January 3, 2019, 02:58 PM

Had several old timing friends that used IMR 3031 for their 308 accuracy loads with heavier sierra/hornady match bullets. I tried some of their handloads, and they were indeed very accurate with good velocity. If not for the difficulty in throwing consistent charges without weighing each one, would likely have used 3031 for years.

Whether that consistency acutely mattered, would be another discussion. I just couldn't get past the grating powder throw.

December 31, 2018, 05:20 PM	#1
Mcewza Junior Member Join Date: December 31, 2018 Posts: 2	New to Reloading question Hey hope this is a pretty simple question with a simple answer. I just started reloading and made my first 3 .308 rounds last night. I used cci 200 large rifle primers, 37 gr of imr 3031, and a hornady 180gr bullet. I got the data from hodgdon reloading. Should 37 gr of imr 3031 reach the shoulder of the case? It seemed to me that there really isn't that much room in the case and the data called for a max load of 44 gr, which seems to me would fill the case. I'm sorry if this is something that has been gone over before. On a second note, the equipment and supplies I bought used happens to have about 8 lbs of Red Dot and a few hundred 30 caliber speer 100 gr plinkers. I read about "The Load" and was curious if I would need the full 13 gr of Red Dot for a 100 gr bullet or if I should dial it down to 10 gr. Thanks for any help you can supply!

December 31, 2018, 07:46 PM	#3
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	As Mike38 says. If there is a "C" on the load data for a powder means compressed. Compressed os ok, so long as it's not over done. If you are getting into compressed loads, you may want to crimp, as the powder will actually push the bullet further out, increasing your COAL. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

January 1, 2019, 04:55 PM	#4
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I would change that to CAN push the bullet out when you get into serious compression, not light. Mcewza: The ignition part works better accuracy wise with fuller cases, 80% and to low can have pressure issues with some powders. I would get more data (I can look it up a bit latter, I have LOTS of books (grin) - I like books and have versions going back a lot of years. I never throw a reload book away. If Mike38 is right you do need to pay close attention and its another reason for at lest two resources for load data. 1. Ooopos, I got it wrong and the second one got my attention. 2. Ergh, they have a data bust and THEY got it wrong. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 1, 2019, 05:05 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Mcewza, Welcome to the forum. 3031 is low on density as stick powders go. That lets it fill a case well with a lighter charge weight than some others do. It's a relatively quick powder for 308 Win and won't get you the highest velocities within safe pressure limits, but it will work and let you get your feet wet with reloading. You can increase its packing density by setting cases on a vibrating surface like the top of a vibratory case cleaner, or by dropping them into the case through a long tube. Welcome to an interesting hobby. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 2, 2019, 05:37 AM	#6
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Mcewza, I would NOT do a charge of Red Dot!!! At least not till Unclenick, and others have chimed in about it. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

December 31, 2018, 06:06 PM	#2
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	The Hodgdon web site shows a start load of 37 gr of 3031, and a max load of 40.6 gr. So be careful with your information. IMR3031 is an longer cut extruded powder that may not be "stacking" well in the case. After you drop the powder charge, tap the case a few times and you will see the level go down as the sticks of powder align themselves in the case. I use IMR3031 in .223 and even the start loads fill the case to near the shoulder. I think you'll be fine at 37 gr. But do try 38 and 39. I find that just a bit above start load suggestion works best for me.

January 2, 2019, 07:10 AM	#7
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,657	Red dot is a commonly used powder to make reduced rifle loads. I have never used it but there is tons of information on it. That's why it is called "the load." If I am to produce reduced power loads, I prefer H4895 to do so. OP what are you trying to accomplish? At best, the red dot load for 308 is much closer to a straight up gallery load. Well under 30-30 power levels. If this is what you're after then have at it. I would not go down to 10 grains of red dot I would start at 14. You want at least 50% case fill and 10 grains won't do it. IIRC "the load" was actually 16 gns of red dot, but confirm with your source. __________________ Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

January 2, 2019, 11:33 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	You can read about the development of "the load", here. Ed Harris limits it to cases with a capacity equal 30-40 Krag or greater and for guns with maximum pressure ratings of over 40,000 psi (so, not for 30-30). The average .308 Win case has a water overflow capacity that is a grain or two smaller than the average 30-40 Krag case, but with its much higher (62,000 psi) maximum pressure, it made Ed's list anyway. The idea is that a super fast powder makes all its pressure right away and before the bullet moves much in the bore, so if you seat all your bullets to the same depth, it should hit that same pressure without regard for bullet weight. Progressive rifle powders don't behave that way, having their pressure increase significantly with bullet weight. In practice, though, Red Dot is fast, but not super-fast, like blank powder, and bigger bullets usually take up a little more space in the case and raise pressure some that way, so pressure does increase some with bullet size, but just not beyond what a 30-40 Krag (or a .308 Win) can withstand. As an illustration of the principle, I put the 13-grain Red Dot load into QuickLOAD's model in a .308 Win case wit 5 grains water overflow capacity and gave it a 200-grain bullet seated 0.366" deep into the case and then changed only the weight to 14000 grains (2 lbs). The pressure stopped increasing with bullet weight at just over 45,300 psi, so that's what you would get with the bore plugged. The 100-grain Speer RN half-jacketed "plinker" bullet developed 33,900 psi, by comparison. So that light bullet starts to move before the Red Dot is fully burned, but no bullet weight is going to get you outside the .308 pressure range. It does suggest, however, that Ed Harris's 40,000 psi lower pressure limit should probably be moved up to 46,000 psi. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 2, 2019, 01:57 PM	#9
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,657	Ah it was 13 gns of red dot. 16 gns was the recommended point for 2400 in reduced cast bullet rifle loads. My bad. __________________ Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

January 2, 2019, 02:28 PM	#10
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Mcewza Also may be a factor is the case thickness , not all cases are the same thickness . FC cases are thicker , when I first started reloading 308 30+ years ago I was using Win & Rem. cases using IMR 4064 the powder filled to the base of the neck , using the same charge but first time using the Federal case the powder filled to the top of the neck . The case has less volume for being so thick , had to lower the charge by one grain from the listed anount in the book. Start at the low end of the scale with the recommended OAL of the bullet being used and increase your chances by .3 grains until you get good groupings with 5 shot groups . Go easy , one step at a time . If unsure just ask , that's what we are here for . Chris

January 2, 2019, 02:39 PM	#11
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...reach the shoulder of the case?..." Isn't something you need to worry about. Just follow your manual and you'll be fine. As mentioned, 37 grains of IMR3031 is the Start load. You need to work up the load from there. Load 5 or a mag load if it's less and work up by half a grain to the Max load given in your manual. "...or if I should..." What does your manual say? There are no jacketed bullet Red Dot rifle loads on Alliant's site. "...8 lbs of Red Dot..." Do not buy anything in bulk until you have worked up a load. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 3, 2019, 01:53 PM	#12
Mcewza Junior Member Join Date: December 31, 2018 Posts: 2	Thank you for all the replies, I shot the imr 3031 loads and they performed just fine for my first reloads. First time shooting something I reloaded myself and I was a little unsure of how things should look through the process. I used the 13 gr of red dot with the speer 100 gr bullets and they shot just fine making it out of the barrel(the main thing I was worried about) and to the target. I am using that as a reduced recoil round (severely) to get my 8 year old's feet wet so to speak and get him behind a rifle. again thank you for your prompt replies.

January 3, 2019, 02:58 PM	#13
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Had several old timing friends that used IMR 3031 for their 308 accuracy loads with heavier sierra/hornady match bullets. I tried some of their handloads, and they were indeed very accurate with good velocity. If not for the difficulty in throwing consistent charges without weighing each one, would likely have used 3031 for years. Whether that consistency acutely mattered, would be another discussion. I just couldn't get past the grating powder throw.