Group hunts can be deadly

Pahoo · January 28, 2019, 08:42 PM

Man dies in coyote hunting incident

Quote:

CLAY COUNTY, Iowa -- On January 27, at approximately 11:15 a.m., Clay County Sheriff’s deputies, Iowa DNR conservation officers and local emergency personnel responded to a report of a hunting incident near County Highway B53 and 160th Ave. in Clay County.
Kirk Struve, 47, of Granville, Iowa was struck by a round believed to be fired from another member of his hunting party. The incident occurred while Struve was coyote hunting with a large group of hunters.
Struve was taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead.
The investigation into the shooting is on-going and further information will be released throughout the investigation as necessary.

In Iowa there is pretty much an open season on Coyotes. I suspect that might hold true for other states as well. One method is to drive and Coyotes to blockers. I have hunting with such groups and one rule is, shotguns only. I have seen the number of participants in the upper teens and as high as the 20's .We always have a hunt leader/leaders who sets some rules. Sure enough, one or two members will sneak in a rifle.

I post this to be careful and even when you set the rules for groups, they are not always followed. ……

My prayers go out to the Struve family
Be Safe !!!

clockwork65 · January 28, 2019, 09:03 PM

Damn. One of the first couple things drilled into my head as a kid was safety on and no finger on the trigger until you had 100% identified your target. In a drive or mooch situation, maybe the safety has to be off. But target ID is a must. Hate to see stories like this.

big al hunter · January 28, 2019, 09:05 PM

Statistics here are 50% of firearm incidents during hunting involved someone in the same party. 35% shoot themselves. Only 15% are shot by someone they don't know. Our current incident rate is about 1 per year average, in this state. I imagine the numbers are fairly similar elsewhere. Be cautious about who you hunt with. And then be careful yourself.

My condolences to the Struve family and all who knew him as well.

Pahoo, thanks for posting.

Double Naught Spy · January 29, 2019, 12:50 AM

big al is right. Chances are that if you get shot while hunting, it will be by somebody else and usually it will be by somebody in your party.

With that said, hunting with a partner or partners can help assure that you indeed get medical assistance for all manners of injuries or health-related emergencies, such aid often being slower or non-existent without the benefit of partners.

As one of my old bosses once said, "Going outside is inherently dangerous."

FrankenMauser · January 29, 2019, 03:00 AM

"I thought he was a deer..."

People never learn.

buck460XVR · January 29, 2019, 06:23 AM

Around here a popular way to 'yotes with a group is not to drive them, but to run them with dogs. Dogs are let out on a good set of tracks or just a area where 'yotes are numerous. Then "standers" take positions where they think the song dogs will try to cross. With GPS tracker collars, many times they are directed by a leader via phone or walkie-talkie where to quickly reposition themselves. While this can be fairly safe when one always knows where other members of their party are, with flat ground with few trees, long range weapons and folks wearing camo, it's not always easy. If the flat ground is frozen, you have to add in the risk of ricochets too. Put your eye up to a scope and follow a running coyote across an open field and you see nuttin' in front of you but the coyote. By the tiime you see your buddy in the scope, you may already be pulling the trigger.

Lohman446 · January 29, 2019, 08:24 AM

Maybe a bit off topic but maybe not. Sounds like a legitimate sporting use for the civilian ownership of high end body armor.

Erno86 · January 29, 2019, 10:23 AM

I prefer the type of hunters that don't get overly excited when something is moving unseen in the bushes, being aware of the drivers and standers location, and always being aware of there target and what's behind it.

jmr40 · January 29, 2019, 10:39 AM

If this was a situation where drivers were pushing game toward hunters on stand it probably WASN'T a case of not clearly identifying the target. The shooter probably shot at a coyote, missed and hit someone else that could have been quite a distance away and unseen.

Game drives can be productive, and safe if done right. In southern swamps they are pretty common, but the shooters are required to be in elevated stands so all shots are at an angle down into the ground. And many places require shotguns with buckshot only to prevent missed shots from traveling for miles like a rifle will. Drivers are not permitted to shoot.

Pahoo · January 29, 2019, 11:29 AM

Quote:

The shooter probably shot at a coyote, missed and hit someone else that could have been quite a distance away and unseen.ve been quite a distance away and unseen.

This incident is under investigation and this coming spring, during our Hunter Instructor's workshop, we will review what actually happened. If there is an interest, I will post a follow-up. Sad that there are times when we learn some hard lessons, the wrong way. …….

Be Safe !!!

big al hunter · January 29, 2019, 01:40 PM

Quote:

If there is an interest, I will post a follow-up

Yes please. I would like to know so I can add it to our hunter ed program. Current incidents tend to hold more interest, and have more of an affect on the youth portion of the class.

Pahoo · January 29, 2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Yes please. I would like to know so I can add it to our hunter ed program.

Will definitely do. One classroom demonstration that I use occasionally, is to take a tennis ball and throw it at one of the students in the back of the room. Before I do so, I notify him of or that I'm going to do so and after catching it. I would like them to throw it back to me and when it's in the air, make it come to him. That gets the wheels turning and finally admit that it's impossible. I tell them that once you take the shot, it's impossible to take it back. That applies to many bad or cheap shots we take, in life. …..

Take care as you may not like how they throw the ball back. I usually select a younger person. ……

Be Safe !!!

reynolds357 · January 29, 2019, 07:17 PM

Group hunts can be deadly. Solo hunts can be deadly. Driving can be deadly. Going to work can be deadly. Sitting in your living room can be deadly.

big al hunter · January 29, 2019, 09:16 PM

Quote:

I would like them to throw it back to me and when it's in the air, make it come to him. That gets the wheels turning

That's a good one! Can I steal it for my class?

You can't stop me now... first class of the year is Saturday....gonna have to use it then.

thallub · January 30, 2019, 09:07 AM

Some "hunters" should never be allowed to touch a gun.

Growing up in WV we knew a young man who was not quite "right" but we never thought he was dangerous. That changed one morning when a hunting party assembled. Virgil was heard to say: "I'm going to shoot the first thing that moves".

Unfortunately, the first thing that moved was hunting party member Sammy. Yep, Virgil shot Sammy, pretty badly, at that. It was a miracle that Sammy lived and fully recovered after being shot with a .30-30.

tangolima · January 30, 2019, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reynolds357

Group hunts can be deadly. Solo hunts can be deadly. Driving can be deadly. Going to work can be deadly. Sitting in your living room can be deadly.

Quite right. But after talking to some of the people who hunt, I decided to take my chance somewhere else. When hunting season is on, I will going several counties away, driving.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Pahoo · January 30, 2019, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Group hunts can be deadly. Solo hunts can be deadly.

Should not equate the two as Group Hunts present a different set of circumstances and additional planning not to mention rules. My post was not meant to discourage hunters from participating in these hunts. In fact, I have participated and helped organize them. They can make a good day, better.

On one two day hunt, we politely and privately disinvited two members, after the first day. ….

Enjoy and;
Be Safe !!!

FrankenMauser · January 30, 2019, 12:26 PM

I had a hunter "sneak up" on me one day, while I was trying to relocate my party in an area typically devoid of humans - even during hunting season - in the mountains of Northeastern Utah.
I was firing a pair of shots from my 9mm every couple of minutes, and waiting for the response from the other members. Due to distance, terrain, and vegetation, we had to keep repeating the act for some time, as not all shots were heard.
Since I was shooting anyway, and my goal was to regroup with the party, I was not being quiet.

When it came time for another volley, about 15 minutes into this, I pulled the handgun and turned around to fire it into the base of a tree (so as to not be firing in the direction of the party). This stranger pops out from behind a tree that's now 30-40 yards to my left, surprises me, and starts screaming, "I'm right here! Don't shoot! I'm right here! Don't shoot!"

He was under the impression that I had noticed movement and was simply going to shoot at whatever it was that was moving.

I let him approach as I re-holstered the 9mm. A quick back-and-forth cleared up the misconception, and revealed that he had, in fact, been "sneaking" behind me and trying to remain unnoticed. (Why, he never revealed.)

I completely understand and support his response to the situation. He was wrong. But you're better of acting a fool than getting shot by someone with an itchy trigger finger...

Mobuck · January 31, 2019, 07:41 AM

The last time I heard the sound of a passing bullet was while coyote hunting in 1978 or 79. We sere sitting in my pickup next to a dead tree in a fence row when I heard the sound and dropped behind the vehicle's door. The guy who was riding with me said "What was that?" about the time another 3-4 shots went over with one of those striking a branch of the tree above us. The small branch fell on the hood of the pickup and my friend's face went white when I said "That was the sound of bullets passing just over us".
Of course, the shooter wasn't aiming at us but the results were the same.

Drm50 · January 31, 2019, 09:58 AM

We hunted for years on state areas in eastern WVa mountains. It wasn't crowded and the same parties showed up every season. We quit them in early 70s because of all the day hunters that moved in. One of our guys was shot in his blind while Turkey hunting. Then in
deer season we had several bullets buzz by so we don't do public areas anymore. A few years ago while Ohio was slug only a local farmer was shot and killed off his tractor. The shooter was not from this area and got a lawyer who got him off light. There are a lot of idiots with guns. We have never had a accident in our crew of 14. We were all brought up
old school, safety first and know what you are shooting at.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 31, 2019, 10:21 AM

In a hunting party, I asked what is our plan if we see the target critter. Well, we just shoot at him. I asked a serious friend - he said that his plan was to hit the dirt. Just saying.

TXAZ · January 31, 2019, 11:09 AM

And this is one of the best reasons to not lease your land out to others. There is often an idiot / common-senseless person.

With due respect to the victim's family, this was foreshadowed here:
Why you shouldn't lease your land for hunting

std7mag · January 31, 2019, 10:36 PM

I had never heard of a group hunt for coyotes.
People group hunt bears every year here in PA.
Get more incidents during spring gobler. Hunters calling each other in.

Rembrandt · February 3, 2019, 01:35 PM

I've been a Hunter Ed instructor in Iowa for over 30 years, have long believed the Iowa DNR should have done away with party hunting years ago. Seen more violations and irresponsible actions as a result of it.

Only reason the DNR continues to back it, the Farm Bureau and Insurance companies want the deer & coyote populations reduced which reduces the effect on their bottom line. DNR believes party hunting produces more game taken and makes those entities happy. If a casualty or law violations occur, that's the cost of doing business.

Group hunting encourages a competitive atmosphere within the group, a lack of safety coordination between hunters and blatant disregard for property lines. We've seen them using two way radios, cell phones, ATV's, Trucks to coordinate drives (clearly illegal) and violations in abundance. When you bend the rules and ethics for one thing, it's pretty easy to look the other way on others. Before long "herd mentality" takes over and people get hurt.

Don't look for the practice to stop, too many people in the DNR privately admit its a problem but publicly minimize or deny it.

buck460XVR · February 3, 2019, 03:39 PM

Group/party hunting has many different connotations. In Wisconsin at one time, you had party tags for antlerless deer, but group hunting was illegal......altho large deer drives for deer was and still is....legal.

For many folks, when they hear the word "group hunt", the first thing that pops into their head is a "drive" hunt, where a group of drivers forces game to another group called standers. Here, "group hunt" means that any number of people can join together and contribute to the total legal bag limit of the group. Used to be, while a group of people could drive deer to another group of standers, only the person that had a valid tag could shoot and only the person deemed to have killed the animal could legally tag it. With the old "party tag" system, it took a group of people to apply for a single tag, and anyone in that group could shoot the animal, but only if and when the tag itself was in their possession.

Cornfused yet?

That said, I'm bettin' the episode in Iowa was with dogs running 'yotes. It was not a case of misidentification, but probably a shot that went beyond it's intended target, either directly or because of ricochet.

Around here houndsmen runnin' yotes have gotten a bad rap, in a case of one or two bad apples spoils the whole crate. Wisconsin Private land is basically small parcels of under 200 acres. Getting permission to hunt private land is difficult at best because of known problems with the doggers. So many times they hunt the roads, while allowing their dogs to run on property they do not have permission on. Many times those unattended dogs get into things and places they shouldn't be. Sometimes they get hung-up and the owners trespass to go get them. Sometimes it's easier to cut a fence and use a ATV then to walk in. Sometimes to avoid being seen on trail cams, trail cams are stolen or broken. It goes on and on. Sometimes regular folks driving on public roads see doggers illegally shooting from and across the roads they are waiting at, and feel they are at risk....and rightfully so. Thus a few tend to make the rest of the good, responsible law-abiding houndsmen look bad also.

Group hunting and deer drives, when done properly, have no more inherent risks that any other form of hunting. What puts folks at risk is the compresion of folks and game into a small area. Thus one needs to be even more aware of and practice the rules of gun safety even harder. Again, the use of Blaze orange has greatly reduced shooting incidents during the gun season as people are just more visible. Put folks in camo and that advantage goes away.
Banning certain types of hunting for all because a few make tragic mistakes is
not going to change the irresponsible. Like those folks around here that trespass and shoot from the roads in an attempt to get around the rules, those folks will still do stupid things like shoot at each other. IMHO, maybe a law where groups of more than three need to wear Blaze orange would work better than a complete ban. I dunno. I tend to stay away from most drives and group hunts anymore because my type of hunting demands it. To others tho, in certain scenarios, deer drives are the only feasible method to get deer to move during daylight hours. It just has to be done safely.

January 28, 2019, 09:05 PM	#3
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	Statistics here are 50% of firearm incidents during hunting involved someone in the same party. 35% shoot themselves. Only 15% are shot by someone they don't know. Our current incident rate is about 1 per year average, in this state. I imagine the numbers are fairly similar elsewhere. Be cautious about who you hunt with. And then be careful yourself. My condolences to the Struve family and all who knew him as well. Pahoo, thanks for posting. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

January 29, 2019, 12:50 AM	#4
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	big al is right. Chances are that if you get shot while hunting, it will be by somebody else and usually it will be by somebody in your party. With that said, hunting with a partner or partners can help assure that you indeed get medical assistance for all manners of injuries or health-related emergencies, such aid often being slower or non-existent without the benefit of partners. As one of my old bosses once said, "Going outside is inherently dangerous." __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

January 29, 2019, 03:00 AM	#5
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	"I thought he was a deer..." People never learn. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 29, 2019, 08:24 AM	#7
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Maybe a bit off topic but maybe not. Sounds like a legitimate sporting use for the civilian ownership of high end body armor. __________________ A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation)

January 29, 2019, 10:23 AM	#8
Erno86 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2012 Location: Marriottsville, Maryland Posts: 1,739	I prefer the type of hunters that don't get overly excited when something is moving unseen in the bushes, being aware of the drivers and standers location, and always being aware of there target and what's behind it. __________________ That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --- George Orwell

January 28, 2019, 09:03 PM	#2
clockwork65 Member Join Date: January 21, 2019 Posts: 37	Damn. One of the first couple things drilled into my head as a kid was safety on and no finger on the trigger until you had 100% identified your target. In a drive or mooch situation, maybe the safety has to be off. But target ID is a must. Hate to see stories like this.

January 29, 2019, 06:23 AM	#6
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	Around here a popular way to 'yotes with a group is not to drive them, but to run them with dogs. Dogs are let out on a good set of tracks or just a area where 'yotes are numerous. Then "standers" take positions where they think the song dogs will try to cross. With GPS tracker collars, many times they are directed by a leader via phone or walkie-talkie where to quickly reposition themselves. While this can be fairly safe when one always knows where other members of their party are, with flat ground with few trees, long range weapons and folks wearing camo, it's not always easy. If the flat ground is frozen, you have to add in the risk of ricochets too. Put your eye up to a scope and follow a running coyote across an open field and you see nuttin' in front of you but the coyote. By the tiime you see your buddy in the scope, you may already be pulling the trigger.

January 29, 2019, 10:39 AM	#9
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,806	If this was a situation where drivers were pushing game toward hunters on stand it probably WASN'T a case of not clearly identifying the target. The shooter probably shot at a coyote, missed and hit someone else that could have been quite a distance away and unseen. Game drives can be productive, and safe if done right. In southern swamps they are pretty common, but the shooters are required to be in elevated stands so all shots are at an angle down into the ground. And many places require shotguns with buckshot only to prevent missed shots from traveling for miles like a rifle will. Drivers are not permitted to shoot. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

January 29, 2019, 07:17 PM	#13
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Group hunts can be deadly. Solo hunts can be deadly. Driving can be deadly. Going to work can be deadly. Sitting in your living room can be deadly.

January 30, 2019, 09:07 AM	#15
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Some "hunters" should never be allowed to touch a gun. Growing up in WV we knew a young man who was not quite "right" but we never thought he was dangerous. That changed one morning when a hunting party assembled. Virgil was heard to say: "I'm going to shoot the first thing that moves". Unfortunately, the first thing that moved was hunting party member Sammy. Yep, Virgil shot Sammy, pretty badly, at that. It was a miracle that Sammy lived and fully recovered after being shot with a .30-30.

January 30, 2019, 12:26 PM	#18
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I had a hunter "sneak up" on me one day, while I was trying to relocate my party in an area typically devoid of humans - even during hunting season - in the mountains of Northeastern Utah. I was firing a pair of shots from my 9mm every couple of minutes, and waiting for the response from the other members. Due to distance, terrain, and vegetation, we had to keep repeating the act for some time, as not all shots were heard. Since I was shooting anyway, and my goal was to regroup with the party, I was not being quiet. When it came time for another volley, about 15 minutes into this, I pulled the handgun and turned around to fire it into the base of a tree (so as to not be firing in the direction of the party). This stranger pops out from behind a tree that's now 30-40 yards to my left, surprises me, and starts screaming, "I'm right here! Don't shoot! I'm right here! Don't shoot!" He was under the impression that I had noticed movement and was simply going to shoot at whatever it was that was moving. I let him approach as I re-holstered the 9mm. A quick back-and-forth cleared up the misconception, and revealed that he had, in fact, been "sneaking" behind me and trying to remain unnoticed. (Why, he never revealed.) I completely understand and support his response to the situation. He was wrong. But you're better of acting a fool than getting shot by someone with an itchy trigger finger... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 31, 2019, 07:41 AM	#19
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	The last time I heard the sound of a passing bullet was while coyote hunting in 1978 or 79. We sere sitting in my pickup next to a dead tree in a fence row when I heard the sound and dropped behind the vehicle's door. The guy who was riding with me said "What was that?" about the time another 3-4 shots went over with one of those striking a branch of the tree above us. The small branch fell on the hood of the pickup and my friend's face went white when I said "That was the sound of bullets passing just over us". Of course, the shooter wasn't aiming at us but the results were the same.

January 31, 2019, 09:58 AM	#20
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,378	We hunted for years on state areas in eastern WVa mountains. It wasn't crowded and the same parties showed up every season. We quit them in early 70s because of all the day hunters that moved in. One of our guys was shot in his blind while Turkey hunting. Then in deer season we had several bullets buzz by so we don't do public areas anymore. A few years ago while Ohio was slug only a local farmer was shot and killed off his tractor. The shooter was not from this area and got a lawyer who got him off light. There are a lot of idiots with guns. We have never had a accident in our crew of 14. We were all brought up old school, safety first and know what you are shooting at.

January 31, 2019, 10:21 AM	#21
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	In a hunting party, I asked what is our plan if we see the target critter. Well, we just shoot at him. I asked a serious friend - he said that his plan was to hit the dirt. Just saying. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 31, 2019, 11:09 AM	#22
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	And this is one of the best reasons to not lease your land out to others. There is often an idiot / common-senseless person. With due respect to the victim's family, this was foreshadowed here: Why you shouldn't lease your land for hunting __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

January 31, 2019, 10:36 PM	#23
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I had never heard of a group hunt for coyotes. People group hunt bears every year here in PA. Get more incidents during spring gobler. Hunters calling each other in. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

February 3, 2019, 01:35 PM	#24
Rembrandt Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2002 Posts: 2,108	I've been a Hunter Ed instructor in Iowa for over 30 years, have long believed the Iowa DNR should have done away with party hunting years ago. Seen more violations and irresponsible actions as a result of it. Only reason the DNR continues to back it, the Farm Bureau and Insurance companies want the deer & coyote populations reduced which reduces the effect on their bottom line. DNR believes party hunting produces more game taken and makes those entities happy. If a casualty or law violations occur, that's the cost of doing business. Group hunting encourages a competitive atmosphere within the group, a lack of safety coordination between hunters and blatant disregard for property lines. We've seen them using two way radios, cell phones, ATV's, Trucks to coordinate drives (clearly illegal) and violations in abundance. When you bend the rules and ethics for one thing, it's pretty easy to look the other way on others. Before long "herd mentality" takes over and people get hurt. Don't look for the practice to stop, too many people in the DNR privately admit its a problem but publicly minimize or deny it.

February 3, 2019, 03:39 PM	#25
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	Group/party hunting has many different connotations. In Wisconsin at one time, you had party tags for antlerless deer, but group hunting was illegal......altho large deer drives for deer was and still is....legal. For many folks, when they hear the word "group hunt", the first thing that pops into their head is a "drive" hunt, where a group of drivers forces game to another group called standers. Here, "group hunt" means that any number of people can join together and contribute to the total legal bag limit of the group. Used to be, while a group of people could drive deer to another group of standers, only the person that had a valid tag could shoot and only the person deemed to have killed the animal could legally tag it. With the old "party tag" system, it took a group of people to apply for a single tag, and anyone in that group could shoot the animal, but only if and when the tag itself was in their possession. Cornfused yet? That said, I'm bettin' the episode in Iowa was with dogs running 'yotes. It was not a case of misidentification, but probably a shot that went beyond it's intended target, either directly or because of ricochet. Around here houndsmen runnin' yotes have gotten a bad rap, in a case of one or two bad apples spoils the whole crate. Wisconsin Private land is basically small parcels of under 200 acres. Getting permission to hunt private land is difficult at best because of known problems with the doggers. So many times they hunt the roads, while allowing their dogs to run on property they do not have permission on. Many times those unattended dogs get into things and places they shouldn't be. Sometimes they get hung-up and the owners trespass to go get them. Sometimes it's easier to cut a fence and use a ATV then to walk in. Sometimes to avoid being seen on trail cams, trail cams are stolen or broken. It goes on and on. Sometimes regular folks driving on public roads see doggers illegally shooting from and across the roads they are waiting at, and feel they are at risk....and rightfully so. Thus a few tend to make the rest of the good, responsible law-abiding houndsmen look bad also. Group hunting and deer drives, when done properly, have no more inherent risks that any other form of hunting. What puts folks at risk is the compresion of folks and game into a small area. Thus one needs to be even more aware of and practice the rules of gun safety even harder. Again, the use of Blaze orange has greatly reduced shooting incidents during the gun season as people are just more visible. Put folks in camo and that advantage goes away. Banning certain types of hunting for all because a few make tragic mistakes is not going to change the irresponsible. Like those folks around here that trespass and shoot from the roads in an attempt to get around the rules, those folks will still do stupid things like shoot at each other. IMHO, maybe a law where groups of more than three need to wear Blaze orange would work better than a complete ban. I dunno. I tend to stay away from most drives and group hunts anymore because my type of hunting demands it. To others tho, in certain scenarios, deer drives are the only feasible method to get deer to move during daylight hours. It just has to be done safely.