Need some Luger advice (pics)

BoogieMan · May 5, 2015, 07:00 AM

I want a Nazi Luger because I dont have one. My Luger knowledge is limited to knowing who made them and approx when. But, I would have a very hard time identifying any of them if you handed me one. I simply have no experience. If you have some Luger knowledge please take a look at the pictures and give me an honest opinion of retail value. Its being sold as a Simson Suhl Nazi marked. I plan on limited shooting with this gun.

mapsjanhere · May 5, 2015, 07:31 AM

Unfortunately you don't show the toggle, but by 1941 the Simpson factory was part of the Gustloff conglomerate and didn't use the Simpson name anymore. Also, the 655 WaA stamp is usually thought to be a Mauser stamp. Together with the black plastic grips I'd think it's probably an East German rework. Value probably around $1000

BoogieMan · May 5, 2015, 07:43 AM

Mapsjanhere- are you saying that most late WWII run Lugers in fair but mismatched condition should bring in the area of $1k?
Best view they have listed of the toggle.

BoogieMan · May 5, 2015, 07:46 AM

What is the best of the WWII Lugers as far as quality and reliability, value aside?
Simson, DWM, Krieghof?

Jim Watson · May 5, 2015, 08:26 AM

The OP gun looks like a Vopo; it looks reblued, the "bullseye" plastic grips were one pattern used, and I am not sure about the big "matching" 97 on the rear toggle. And, as said, Simson was long gone by 1941.

I can't say which of the makers of Lugers was "best" but ol' Hermann Goering wanted Krieghoff Lugers for his pilots. Me, I would take a late DWM or peacetime Mauser.

Quentin2 · May 5, 2015, 08:27 AM

I'd say Mauser was the best of the WWII P08s. The frame pictured is Mauser, since of all P08s only the 1941 and 1942 Mausers were actually marked P08 (on the left side near the safety). Mauser didn't use their name, instead a code was stamped on the toggle. S/42, byf - etc. A 1941 should have byf on the toggle.

BoogieMan · May 5, 2015, 09:45 AM

So its definately a shooter not a collector gun. What would a gun like this be valued at? $700ish?

**44 AMP** · May 5, 2015, 11:08 AM

If they are selling that gun as "Simson & Co Suhl" gun, it doesn't match the info in my "Standard Catalog of Luger" (Davis 2006)

According to that reference, the toggle should be marked "Simson & CO Suhl"

Simpson & Co reworked, and made Lugers for the police & Weimar military from 1922 to 1934. They were put out of business by the Nazis, because they were both a representative of the Weimar era, and Jewish owned.

I think a 1941 "Simpson & CO" highly unlikely because of that. The frame might have come from Simpson, but the rest of the gun as shown probably did not.

Shooter grade. $750 would be a fair price today, but $1000 is more likely to be what they are asking. I'm not up on current Luger market values.

CORRECT Simson & CO Lugers are rare, and worth a premium to collectors. I don't think that one is in that category.

BoogieMan · May 5, 2015, 11:20 AM

Thank you very much gentlemen. The knowledge on this board never disappoints.
I am going to get a copy of Standard catalog of Luger so I can refer to it myself. Often when these things come up its buy on the spot or lose it.

James K · May 5, 2015, 01:18 PM

44 Amp has it right. Simpson did not make any Lugers after 1934; they were Jewish and their factory was confiscated by the Nazis. Plus the Waffenamt number 655 was that of the chief inspector assigned to Mauser. If the rear toggle is original, it should be marked either "42" or "byf".

BTW, the "97" marking on the rear toggle is bogus.

Jim

mapsjanhere · May 5, 2015, 01:41 PM

Boogie, to me the gun screams deliberate fake, not mismatched. The description is wrong. The grips look VoPo, but the rest doesn't match the East German rework style. A true VoPo might not be in the factory original factory condition, but has a known history of service, including one or more overhauls/reworks, and that's usually documented in a lot more proof marks. I think this gun is scrubbed of markings and force matched, the numbers look too sharp after the refinish, especially if compared to the WaA marks. Pretty shooter but not an "honest" gun. Still, the way it looks it would bring $1000 on the table of the gun show just for the looks from someone who buys pretty over correct. Hey, Mitchell Mauser is still around too.

BoogieMan · May 11, 2015, 10:59 AM

I struck out so far on the "standard catalog of luger". I am not going to pay the money the copies are bringing and I have no reply back from the author website.
Is there a book that will give me good information to use during my search for a WWII Luger? I dont mind posting here, but its going to get old for you guys and me pretty fast.

mapsjanhere · May 11, 2015, 02:13 PM

There is a scanned google e-book version for $17 https://play.google.com/store/books/...d=7Rf8AWdvX4wC

**44 AMP** · May 11, 2015, 11:55 PM

Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for a copy of the book? My copy is softcover GunDigest Book with a printed cover price of $29.99.

It was given to me by a friend, to help ID a Luger I bought. He's a GOOD friend!

It may not be the ultimate Luger reference, but it seems pretty good and comprehensive up to the date of publication.

BoogieMan · May 12, 2015, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for a copy of the book?

$204 + s&h is best price I found. I have also seen them listed as high as $486. You can get ebooks for under $20.

spacecoast · May 12, 2015, 06:57 AM

There are better references than the Standard Catalog of Luger, which is dated and not very detailed. Better yet, join and post your pics at luger.gunboards.com or lugerforum.com and you will get a very good reading on what it is and what it isn't. Ed Tinker literally "wrote the book" on Simson Lugers and he is a regular on both those forums.

BoogieMan · May 12, 2015, 07:11 AM

I am working on joining Luger Forums. Their Mods are a little slow to approve new members.
I did find some good resources over there and have printed many pages that I can take along on my shopping quests.

**44 AMP** · May 13, 2015, 10:05 AM

Holy Crap!

I had no idea. To me, its just a $30 book a friend gave me. Not the be all, end all totally comprehensive in depth holy writ, just a decent reference book.

The 2006 price guide in the book was probably out of date when it was printed, but I use to gauge, roughly, the percentage of price difference between the different grades of finish, adjusted to recent prices as best I can.

I guess I'll have to start taking better care of my copy!

kilimanjaro · May 13, 2015, 10:32 AM

If you're looking for that book on Gunbroker, might try Abebooks.com, the sellers there have a wide range of prices on their wares. Condition is everything, in books or guns, that makes up a large portion of the price. You might find a vendor who thinks he's got just another ten-year old Gun Digest instead of a Gutenberg Bible.

BoogieMan · May 13, 2015, 10:46 AM

Standard Catalog of Luger
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...talog+of+Luger

Would be nice if they would buy me dinner first.

James K · May 13, 2015, 08:35 PM

Golly! I'm afraid to check on what my copy of Görtz and Sturgess is worth!

Jim

spacecoast · May 14, 2015, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Golly! I'm afraid to check on what my copy of Görtz and Sturgess is worth!

Depends on whether it's the green set or the red set. I have the green set (better pictures) and bought a searchable PDF (on DVD) of the red set, all for less than the cost of the red set by itself.

May 5, 2015, 07:00 AM	#1
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Need some Luger advice (pics) I want a Nazi Luger because I dont have one. My Luger knowledge is limited to knowing who made them and approx when. But, I would have a very hard time identifying any of them if you handed me one. I simply have no experience. If you have some Luger knowledge please take a look at the pictures and give me an honest opinion of retail value. Its being sold as a Simson Suhl Nazi marked. I plan on limited shooting with this gun. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 5, 2015, 07:31 AM	#2
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Unfortunately you don't show the toggle, but by 1941 the Simpson factory was part of the Gustloff conglomerate and didn't use the Simpson name anymore. Also, the 655 WaA stamp is usually thought to be a Mauser stamp. Together with the black plastic grips I'd think it's probably an East German rework. Value probably around $1000 __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 5, 2015, 07:43 AM	#3
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Mapsjanhere- are you saying that most late WWII run Lugers in fair but mismatched condition should bring in the area of $1k? Best view they have listed of the toggle. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 5, 2015, 07:46 AM	#4
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	What is the best of the WWII Lugers as far as quality and reliability, value aside? Simson, DWM, Krieghof? __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 5, 2015, 09:45 AM	#7
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	So its definately a shooter not a collector gun. What would a gun like this be valued at? $700ish? __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 5, 2015, 08:26 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	The OP gun looks like a Vopo; it looks reblued, the "bullseye" plastic grips were one pattern used, and I am not sure about the big "matching" 97 on the rear toggle. And, as said, Simson was long gone by 1941. I can't say which of the makers of Lugers was "best" but ol' Hermann Goering wanted Krieghoff Lugers for his pilots. Me, I would take a late DWM or peacetime Mauser.

May 5, 2015, 08:27 AM	#6
Quentin2 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996	I'd say Mauser was the best of the WWII P08s. The frame pictured is Mauser, since of all P08s only the 1941 and 1942 Mausers were actually marked P08 (on the left side near the safety). Mauser didn't use their name, instead a code was stamped on the toggle. S/42, byf - etc. A 1941 should have byf on the toggle.

May 5, 2015, 11:08 AM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,813	If they are selling that gun as "Simson & Co Suhl" gun, it doesn't match the info in my "Standard Catalog of Luger" (Davis 2006) According to that reference, the toggle should be marked "Simson & CO Suhl" Simpson & Co reworked, and made Lugers for the police & Weimar military from 1922 to 1934. They were put out of business by the Nazis, because they were both a representative of the Weimar era, and Jewish owned. I think a 1941 "Simpson & CO" highly unlikely because of that. The frame might have come from Simpson, but the rest of the gun as shown probably did not. Shooter grade. $750 would be a fair price today, but $1000 is more likely to be what they are asking. I'm not up on current Luger market values. CORRECT Simson & CO Lugers are rare, and worth a premium to collectors. I don't think that one is in that category. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 5, 2015, 11:20 AM	#9
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Thank you very much gentlemen. The knowledge on this board never disappoints. I am going to get a copy of Standard catalog of Luger so I can refer to it myself. Often when these things come up its buy on the spot or lose it. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 5, 2015, 01:18 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	44 Amp has it right. Simpson did not make any Lugers after 1934; they were Jewish and their factory was confiscated by the Nazis. Plus the Waffenamt number 655 was that of the chief inspector assigned to Mauser. If the rear toggle is original, it should be marked either "42" or "byf". BTW, the "97" marking on the rear toggle is bogus. Jim

May 5, 2015, 01:41 PM	#11
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Boogie, to me the gun screams deliberate fake, not mismatched. The description is wrong. The grips look VoPo, but the rest doesn't match the East German rework style. A true VoPo might not be in the factory original factory condition, but has a known history of service, including one or more overhauls/reworks, and that's usually documented in a lot more proof marks. I think this gun is scrubbed of markings and force matched, the numbers look too sharp after the refinish, especially if compared to the WaA marks. Pretty shooter but not an "honest" gun. Still, the way it looks it would bring $1000 on the table of the gun show just for the looks from someone who buys pretty over correct. Hey, Mitchell Mauser is still around too. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 11, 2015, 10:59 AM	#12
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I struck out so far on the "standard catalog of luger". I am not going to pay the money the copies are bringing and I have no reply back from the author website. Is there a book that will give me good information to use during my search for a WWII Luger? I dont mind posting here, but its going to get old for you guys and me pretty fast. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 11, 2015, 02:13 PM	#13
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	There is a scanned google e-book version for $17 https://play.google.com/store/books/...d=7Rf8AWdvX4wC __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 11, 2015, 11:55 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,813	Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for a copy of the book? My copy is softcover GunDigest Book with a printed cover price of $29.99. It was given to me by a friend, to help ID a Luger I bought. He's a GOOD friend! It may not be the ultimate Luger reference, but it seems pretty good and comprehensive up to the date of publication. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 12, 2015, 06:57 AM	#16
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	There are better references than the Standard Catalog of Luger, which is dated and not very detailed. Better yet, join and post your pics at luger.gunboards.com or lugerforum.com and you will get a very good reading on what it is and what it isn't. Ed Tinker literally "wrote the book" on Simson Lugers and he is a regular on both those forums.

May 12, 2015, 07:11 AM	#17
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I am working on joining Luger Forums. Their Mods are a little slow to approve new members. I did find some good resources over there and have printed many pages that I can take along on my shopping quests. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 13, 2015, 10:05 AM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,813	Holy Crap! I had no idea. To me, its just a $30 book a friend gave me. Not the be all, end all totally comprehensive in depth holy writ, just a decent reference book. The 2006 price guide in the book was probably out of date when it was printed, but I use to gauge, roughly, the percentage of price difference between the different grades of finish, adjusted to recent prices as best I can. I guess I'll have to start taking better care of my copy! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 13, 2015, 10:32 AM	#19
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	If you're looking for that book on Gunbroker, might try Abebooks.com, the sellers there have a wide range of prices on their wares. Condition is everything, in books or guns, that makes up a large portion of the price. You might find a vendor who thinks he's got just another ten-year old Gun Digest instead of a Gutenberg Bible.

May 13, 2015, 10:46 AM	#20
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Standard Catalog of Luger http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...talog+of+Luger Would be nice if they would buy me dinner first. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 13, 2015, 08:35 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Golly! I'm afraid to check on what my copy of Görtz and Sturgess is worth! Jim