How to defend your home defense - Page 2

JoeSixpack · May 5, 2017, 03:02 PM

Personally I think educating kids has a bigger impact than locks and keys.

Im not saying you shouldn't lock up excess guns but at least 1 needs be out and ready.

And Im not a big fan of those quick access safes.. on the other hand I have no children so im sure my POV will naturally be different then those with many small children.. but again I think being honest and educating them is the best route and costs nothing.

who puts locks on the stove? teach your children about fire.

Lohman446 · May 5, 2017, 03:29 PM

Appropriate storage and education are not mutually exclusive and we need to make sure these conversations do not treat them as such.

ShootistPRS · May 5, 2017, 03:34 PM

There are lots of parents who spend a great deal of energy to "child proof" their homes when it is so much better and easier to "house break" your children.
If you lock the guns up it may or may not keep them from the kids (I learned how to pick locks very young). What happens when they go over to their friends homes or see a gun on the street? If they are educated they know what to do and instinctively do it. If they are uneducated there is more likely to be a terrible accident.
Even if you lock the guns up, educate your kids in the proper handling of them. If they show an interest then take the time to share your knowledge with them.

**Frank Ettin** · May 5, 2017, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShootistPRS

There are lots of parents who spend a great deal of energy to "child proof" their homes when it is so much better and easier to "house break" your children.....

No one has said that education isn't important. But so is responsible storage of one's guns. Children (and adults) could be in your home who don't have the benefit of your kid's education or are as responsible as they are. Just as your children may be in other peoples' homes.

FAS1 · May 5, 2017, 06:23 PM

Quote:

who puts locks on the stove? teach your children about fire.

I have a recent experience with this. Visiting my son last weekend and my wife was cooking lunch. His oldest daughter (4 years old) wanted to be helpful. She kept reaching toward a pot on the stove like she was going to touch it. My wife told her at least three times not to touch it that it was hot and will burn you.

Guess what she did? She got a little ouchie. Now what if that was a gun?

Personally, my experience is that kids have to be told over and over and over to understand and sometimes they just need to feel the pain to learn. Guns are very good and what they are meant to do so the over and over method is not the best choice, at least for me.

**Frank Ettin** · May 5, 2017, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAS1

.....Personally, my experience is that kids have to be told over and over and over to understand and sometimes they just need to feel the pain to learn...

What does that really mean in the context of this discussion? So to teach a child firearms safety one should let him shoot himself or someone else's?

Snyper · May 5, 2017, 07:04 PM

Quote:

What does that really mean in the context of this discussion?

It means they don't always learn from simply being told.
There's no need to look for hidden meanings all the time, and there's no need to always be argumentative about everything.

FAS1 · May 5, 2017, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

What does that really mean in the context of this discussion? So to teach a child firearms safety one should let him shoot himself or someone else's?

Frank,

Maybe you can read all of joe's post and understand that I was saying toddlers don't always listen and that can be deadly with a gun vs just a little burn from a stove. Education alone might not work as well as you would like and securing your gun is just a good idea while educating kids.

JoeSixpack · May 5, 2017, 08:03 PM

FAS1 I agree education is just part especially at a young age.
But it seems the conversation was mostly about physical security, which is not reliable especially as they get older or if you have a habit of leaving keys or codes in a known place.

And generally at least 1 gun is going to be left out for bump in the night.
Some people use the quick access safes and they're ok but Im not a big fan of them for bump in the night.

At no time did I mean to convey that one should choose one or the other only that I believe education is more important because that's security thats in the kid not a piece of metal.. it's not situational, and it cost nothing.

Quote:

Personally I think educating kids has a bigger impact than locks and keys.

Im not saying you shouldn't lock up excess guns but at least 1 needs be out and ready.

My father told us not to touch his guns and he just left them on racks and in the closet and we never did.. so every kids different, but not every kid wants to touch the fire.

But again I have no kids so my POV my differ.

**Frank Ettin** · May 6, 2017, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAS1

Maybe you can read all of joe's post and understand that I was saying toddlers don't always listen and that can be deadly with a gun vs just a little burn from a stove. Education alone might not work as well as you would like and securing your gun is just a good idea while educating kids.

I guess my point is that the gun-stove analogy isn't very apt. A slight burn from a stove can be a learning tool. But I hope we have ways of effectively teaching kids to be safe with guns without them having to get shot to get the message.

But I do understand and agree that often children, especially younger children, will not learn from just being told. And that probably translates to some combination of education and access control -- with access control perhaps diminishing as the child gets older and demonstrates an increasingly robust understanding of gun safety.

adamBomb · May 6, 2017, 05:16 PM

I'm much more concerned about valuables when I am away but all of my guns are locked away as I have 3 kids under the age of 6. I have one large safe for my safe guns and my home defense gun is in a padlocked drawer and then in a safe in the drawer - so a double lock just in case the kids try to break in. At night I take the padlock off and open the drawer safe then lock it back up in the morning. Its impossible for me to forget to lock it first thing in the morn because I charge my phone in the drawer and put it in that safe at night so when I wake up in the morning I have to go in the drawer to get my phone and I close it all up. My CCW gun is always on me or in my drawer at night with my home defense gun. If someone broke in at night I have an alarm, my wife would be calling police while I hand her a gun, and I would go out to check out the sound and on the kids with my home defense gun.

As far as the discussion about kids, they are all different. They cannot be trusted. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. You can raise two kids exactly the same, one will never touch the guns based on your discipline and the other might. Most studies on this show that kids will take them and play with them if they get the chance. Just keep them locked up. Kids are not to be trusted with guns, even if they are the type that listens and good kids. I have taught mine about guns, shown them guns, told them they can see them whenever they want, etc. BUT I would never trust them near one when I wasn't supervising.

Arizona Fusilier · May 6, 2017, 07:23 PM

I'm quite sure somewhere on this forum, and others, I have read of "the doctrine of competing harms".

There are safes, there are children, there are unloaded guns, there are loaded guns, there are threats, there are perceived threats.

There's Walter Mitty, and there's Navy SEALs coming back from Afghanistan, honourably discharged, that hear bumps in the night.

Exercise your best judgement, and be prepared to stand against scrutinization.... from your peers....or your conscience.

I'm ready.

Danoobie · May 6, 2017, 09:27 PM

A few things you can do if you don't have a safe,
or safe space for it all.
1.- Lock your guns with trigger, or gun locks.
2.-Separate your gear, don't place the gun, in the box, with the mags,
next to matching ammo. A gun missing a bolt, action, or slide won't be as attractive to a thief- he won't be able to sell it quick.
3.- Lock it up, anyway, in a filing cabinet, desk, cabinet, trunk,etc.
4.-Hide your gear, bear in mind, a thief is probably under a time
pressure, or stress, the more stuff he has to search for, the
more time it takes.
5.-Don't keep it all in one room, make it hard for the BG to get it all.
Consider storing parts of things you don't constantly use at another place.
6.-Loose lips sink ships. The less people know about your stuff, the
better.

PlatinumCore16 · May 8, 2017, 11:49 AM

Thank you all for your contributions. I was unaware that they made quick access, long gun safes, though I suppose I should have because it makes sense.

As far as the rest of the discussion goes, that wasn't the original intent of the post, but I think it was extremely related and very helpful. So thank you for your input especially Joe, Shootist, and Frank. Not that anyone else didn't have good contributions, but if you are the kind to skim through forums, at least read those.

As for the outcome, I will be looking into a long gun, quick access safe for my HD shotgun. My EDC will stay on me until bedtime at which point it'll probably go into a drawer as if something goes bump in the night, my SG will be my primary go to.

Don Fischer · May 8, 2017, 12:06 PM

I'm with Joesixpack. My gun is on my belt or on the headboard. I don't have a safe, I really like to look at my guns in a gun cabinet. But time's when I'm away from home more than just a few hour's I think I'd really be more comfortable with a safe to put them in. I have a brother that only has a few rifles and shotgun's but he's keeps them in a closet. You go into that closet and you'd never spot them. He built a cabinet on one end and it simply looks like the wall! If I had the ambition to clean out my closet, think I'd do the same thing. Now I have one older brother that went out and bought the most expensive safe he could find. Bolted it to the floor in the garage and he got broke into and the safe was opened somehow and all his gun's were gone. So much for the safe. My ex got herself one and has a terrible time figuring out how to open it!

BTW, I never hid guns from kids or made them off limits, you want the kid to start looking, make it off limits or hide it! I taught my kids to ask if they wanted to see the guns and they could pick them up then so long as I was with them. Visitor's don't go into the bedroom part of my house, adult or lid, period!

FireForged · May 9, 2017, 07:03 PM

I have a safe that I bought 25 years ago for about $1000. I figure that if someone breaks in and doesn't know I have a safe, they may not mess with it but if they do know I have a safe and come with a sawzall.. its toast. I put it in the closet and put the hardwood door jambs around it with a metal door. If they get in there, they wont have room to really put a prybar to it or lay it down. All you can really do is use a little common sense and just not worry about it. I have 2 large dogs, a security system and hardened doors and windows. Its all I can do.

The house gun sits in the nightstand (always)

JERRYS. · May 10, 2017, 11:16 PM

wow. locked your house up, set the alarm, and if some criminal breaks in, ransacks the place, finds a hidden gun and uses it a month later you are responsible?

what about cars that are locked up and keys are secured, but a criminal steals it and hurts somebody else, negligence on the car owner too huh?

**Frank Ettin** · May 11, 2017, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

...what about cars that are locked up and keys are secured, but a criminal steals it and hurts somebody else, negligence on the car owner too huh?

If you're unlucky a jury will be deciding that.

45_auto · May 11, 2017, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

If you're unlucky a jury will be deciding that.

You could also be unlucky enough to be killed by a meteorite while typing on your computer. Both that and the jury trial you describe are equally likely.

Personally, I don't worry about either.

**Frank Ettin** · May 11, 2017, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 45_auto

You could also be unlucky enough to be killed by a meteorite while typing on your computer. Both that and the jury trial you describe are equally likely....

How would you know? Obviously you're just guessing.

The open issue in JERRYS.'post would be his statement, "...keys are secured... But what does he consider secure, and where is the car parked? If the key is in a magnetic key box in a wheel well, and the car is parked out on the street (and especially if there's a history of car theft in the area), the keys arguably aren't "secure."

It might be different if the car is parked in a locked garage.

But we're also discussing this thread something you can easily pick up, and walk away with.

armoredman · May 12, 2017, 04:50 AM

I utilized the teachings of Massad Ayoob in his classic "Gun Proof Your Kids". My child was exposed over and over in a positive manner to my firearms, and lost the desire to "look" for them when he realized he could ask and see them under my direct supervision. It seemed to work, but I also use traditional methods of properly securing/storing unused firearms/ammo/etc.

Urban Handgunner · May 18, 2017, 12:27 PM

The safe I use is hidden in plain sight. It sits in my living room next to my recliner. I have it covered with a linen cloth to look like a table and on it I have a lamp and a small space heater with some general reading books (Stupid crooks are not interested in books). To the naked eye it is just a covered end table. I keep important papers, extra cash, ammo and a couple of guns in it. Maybe it is a bit bulky, but it works. I also have some of those cheap, China made, eBay bowie knives hanging on my wall as eye candy for potential home invaders. Something that will steer their attention away from the safe. I also do not use an electronic safe as they can be compromised as seen in this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZohdXRYaWWY

raimius · May 21, 2017, 08:43 AM

On me or in a safe.
I do have small, quick-access safe for the hd gun.

Berserker · May 21, 2017, 10:28 AM

"my "HD" gun is what ever handgun(s) im carrying.

it's either in the holster or on the night stand."

Most of us are lucky enough to own more than one gun. I am not forced to use a small concealable gun around the house.

Berserker · May 21, 2017, 10:33 AM

My truck is loaded, whether I am in it or not. I want the redundancy, and back up in case I forget. I know some people are perfect and never forget to leave home with a gun. Plus I like a big gun, and a little gun.

I don't leave my favorite gun in the truck. If someone smashed the window, I feel no ethical responsibility. That type of person was going to keep going until they got a gun. A kid stealing CDs, may take it, but they are not killers. If they were killers, they would have a gun.

May 6, 2017, 05:16 PM	#36
adamBomb Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2015 Location: coastal NC Posts: 645	I'm much more concerned about valuables when I am away but all of my guns are locked away as I have 3 kids under the age of 6. I have one large safe for my safe guns and my home defense gun is in a padlocked drawer and then in a safe in the drawer - so a double lock just in case the kids try to break in. At night I take the padlock off and open the drawer safe then lock it back up in the morning. Its impossible for me to forget to lock it first thing in the morn because I charge my phone in the drawer and put it in that safe at night so when I wake up in the morning I have to go in the drawer to get my phone and I close it all up. My CCW gun is always on me or in my drawer at night with my home defense gun. If someone broke in at night I have an alarm, my wife would be calling police while I hand her a gun, and I would go out to check out the sound and on the kids with my home defense gun. As far as the discussion about kids, they are all different. They cannot be trusted. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. You can raise two kids exactly the same, one will never touch the guns based on your discipline and the other might. Most studies on this show that kids will take them and play with them if they get the chance. Just keep them locked up. Kids are not to be trusted with guns, even if they are the type that listens and good kids. I have taught mine about guns, shown them guns, told them they can see them whenever they want, etc. BUT I would never trust them near one when I wasn't supervising. Last edited by adamBomb; May 6, 2017 at 05:22 PM.

May 9, 2017, 07:03 PM	#41
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I have a safe that I bought 25 years ago for about $1000. I figure that if someone breaks in and doesn't know I have a safe, they may not mess with it but if they do know I have a safe and come with a sawzall.. its toast. I put it in the closet and put the hardwood door jambs around it with a metal door. If they get in there, they wont have room to really put a prybar to it or lay it down. All you can really do is use a little common sense and just not worry about it. I have 2 large dogs, a security system and hardened doors and windows. Its all I can do. The house gun sits in the nightstand (always) __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

May 18, 2017, 12:27 PM	#47
Urban Handgunner Junior Member Join Date: May 18, 2017 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1	Hidden in plain sight The safe I use is hidden in plain sight. It sits in my living room next to my recliner. I have it covered with a linen cloth to look like a table and on it I have a lamp and a small space heater with some general reading books (Stupid crooks are not interested in books). To the naked eye it is just a covered end table. I keep important papers, extra cash, ammo and a couple of guns in it. Maybe it is a bit bulky, but it works. I also have some of those cheap, China made, eBay bowie knives hanging on my wall as eye candy for potential home invaders. Something that will steer their attention away from the safe. I also do not use an electronic safe as they can be compromised as seen in this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZohdXRYaWWY Last edited by Urban Handgunner; May 18, 2017 at 12:45 PM.

May 5, 2017, 03:02 PM	#26
JoeSixpack Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2017 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,048	Personally I think educating kids has a bigger impact than locks and keys. Im not saying you shouldn't lock up excess guns but at least 1 needs be out and ready. And Im not a big fan of those quick access safes.. on the other hand I have no children so im sure my POV will naturally be different then those with many small children.. but again I think being honest and educating them is the best route and costs nothing. who puts locks on the stove? teach your children about fire.

May 5, 2017, 03:29 PM	#27
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Appropriate storage and education are not mutually exclusive and we need to make sure these conversations do not treat them as such.

May 5, 2017, 03:34 PM	#28
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	There are lots of parents who spend a great deal of energy to "child proof" their homes when it is so much better and easier to "house break" your children. If you lock the guns up it may or may not keep them from the kids (I learned how to pick locks very young). What happens when they go over to their friends homes or see a gun on the street? If they are educated they know what to do and instinctively do it. If they are uneducated there is more likely to be a terrible accident. Even if you lock the guns up, educate your kids in the proper handling of them. If they show an interest then take the time to share your knowledge with them.

May 6, 2017, 07:23 PM	#37
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	I'm quite sure somewhere on this forum, and others, I have read of "the doctrine of competing harms". There are safes, there are children, there are unloaded guns, there are loaded guns, there are threats, there are perceived threats. There's Walter Mitty, and there's Navy SEALs coming back from Afghanistan, honourably discharged, that hear bumps in the night. Exercise your best judgement, and be prepared to stand against scrutinization.... from your peers....or your conscience. I'm ready.

May 6, 2017, 09:27 PM	#38
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	A few things you can do if you don't have a safe, or safe space for it all. 1.- Lock your guns with trigger, or gun locks. 2.-Separate your gear, don't place the gun, in the box, with the mags, next to matching ammo. A gun missing a bolt, action, or slide won't be as attractive to a thief- he won't be able to sell it quick. 3.- Lock it up, anyway, in a filing cabinet, desk, cabinet, trunk,etc. 4.-Hide your gear, bear in mind, a thief is probably under a time pressure, or stress, the more stuff he has to search for, the more time it takes. 5.-Don't keep it all in one room, make it hard for the BG to get it all. Consider storing parts of things you don't constantly use at another place. 6.-Loose lips sink ships. The less people know about your stuff, the better.

May 8, 2017, 11:49 AM	#39
PlatinumCore16 Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2017 Location: Colorado Posts: 424	Thank you all for your contributions. I was unaware that they made quick access, long gun safes, though I suppose I should have because it makes sense. As far as the rest of the discussion goes, that wasn't the original intent of the post, but I think it was extremely related and very helpful. So thank you for your input especially Joe, Shootist, and Frank. Not that anyone else didn't have good contributions, but if you are the kind to skim through forums, at least read those. As for the outcome, I will be looking into a long gun, quick access safe for my HD shotgun. My EDC will stay on me until bedtime at which point it'll probably go into a drawer as if something goes bump in the night, my SG will be my primary go to.

May 8, 2017, 12:06 PM	#40
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I'm with Joesixpack. My gun is on my belt or on the headboard. I don't have a safe, I really like to look at my guns in a gun cabinet. But time's when I'm away from home more than just a few hour's I think I'd really be more comfortable with a safe to put them in. I have a brother that only has a few rifles and shotgun's but he's keeps them in a closet. You go into that closet and you'd never spot them. He built a cabinet on one end and it simply looks like the wall! If I had the ambition to clean out my closet, think I'd do the same thing. Now I have one older brother that went out and bought the most expensive safe he could find. Bolted it to the floor in the garage and he got broke into and the safe was opened somehow and all his gun's were gone. So much for the safe. My ex got herself one and has a terrible time figuring out how to open it! BTW, I never hid guns from kids or made them off limits, you want the kid to start looking, make it off limits or hide it! I taught my kids to ask if they wanted to see the guns and they could pick them up then so long as I was with them. Visitor's don't go into the bedroom part of my house, adult or lid, period!

May 10, 2017, 11:16 PM	#42
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	wow. locked your house up, set the alarm, and if some criminal breaks in, ransacks the place, finds a hidden gun and uses it a month later you are responsible? what about cars that are locked up and keys are secured, but a criminal steals it and hurts somebody else, negligence on the car owner too huh?

May 12, 2017, 04:50 AM	#46
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	I utilized the teachings of Massad Ayoob in his classic "Gun Proof Your Kids". My child was exposed over and over in a positive manner to my firearms, and lost the desire to "look" for them when he realized he could ask and see them under my direct supervision. It seemed to work, but I also use traditional methods of properly securing/storing unused firearms/ammo/etc.

May 21, 2017, 08:43 AM	#48
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	On me or in a safe. I do have small, quick-access safe for the hd gun.

May 21, 2017, 10:28 AM	#49
Berserker Junior member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: WI & UP Posts: 284	"my "HD" gun is what ever handgun(s) im carrying. it's either in the holster or on the night stand." Most of us are lucky enough to own more than one gun. I am not forced to use a small concealable gun around the house.

May 21, 2017, 10:33 AM	#50
Berserker Junior member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: WI & UP Posts: 284	My truck is loaded, whether I am in it or not. I want the redundancy, and back up in case I forget. I know some people are perfect and never forget to leave home with a gun. Plus I like a big gun, and a little gun. I don't leave my favorite gun in the truck. If someone smashed the window, I feel no ethical responsibility. That type of person was going to keep going until they got a gun. A kid stealing CDs, may take it, but they are not killers. If they were killers, they would have a gun.