Goodbye to Savage

[stagpanther]

You actually put a borescope down a Savage barrel? !
What were you thinking you'd find?
It's not a Shilen, or Critereon, or any other number of top match grade barrel makers.

I do agree, that mark going around the circumfrence shouldn't be there.

Heck, if i hadn't just bought a 257 Roberts barrel for a Savage, i might offer ya $50 for that one.

Still might...

This isn't your normal every-day machine tooling oopsie gouge--it looks like a freakin snowplow went through the bore and dug a ditch. I'm beginning to wonder if an obstruction was left in the bore and the pitting is due to something exploding.

[brasscollector]

It looks like they tried to transition between longitudinal rifling and radial, yikes. As for the pitting, almost has that copper-ish color to it, any chance its fouling?

[hounddog409]

Meh, never been a fan of Savage. Never bothered to spend money on one. Life is too short to own an ugly rifle.

[stagpanther]

It looks like they tried to transition between longitudinal rifling and radial, yikes. As for the pitting, almost has that copper-ish color to it, any chance its fouling?

It looks like fouling--but that's an aberration of the borecam photo--this is a new unfired rifle as of the time I took the photos (I fired some tubbs coarse grit lapping bullets today to see what would happen).

[Colorado Redneck]

Ya never should have bought a bore scope.

[stagpanther]

Ya never should have bought a bore scope.

Much less two of them.

I believe it's a physical fact of bore life--the more aberrations in the bore--the quicker it will foul--and the more effort it will take to clean it and hence limit the useful life of the barrel and make consistency a moving target, so to speak.

[std7mag]

I'm starting to get a collection of barrels here...
Now i need to start finding some actions & stocks to go with them.

[stagpanther]

Now i need to start finding some actions & stocks to go with them.

I'm just now starting to consider semi-custom and custom actions--but have found getting one that matches my needs is about as easy as finding rifle primers. There's ALWAYS a catch it seems. I really like the design behind Howa's receivers--except that getting the barrel off a stock barreled action may or may not be possible for the average home enthusiast. I have two Bergara-manufactured guns and for modern mass-produced guns I haven't seen their equal in terms of the quality of the barrels that are buttoned-rifled. I'm trying to "wean" myself from round-bottom actions, I still believe the model 70 or similar flat-bottomed action is one of the best ever designed (I like Ruger's take the 77 as well, and the bolt and safety are smoother than the model 70 IMO), if someone would make one of those that allowed for easy swap out of a controlled feed bolt I'd probably buy a dozen right off the bat.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I'm just now starting to consider semi-custom and custom actions--but have found getting one that matches my needs is about as easy as finding rifle primers..... I'm trying to "wean" myself from round-bottom actions, I still believe the model 70 or similar flat-bottomed action is one of the best ever designed (I like Ruger's take the 77 as well, and the bolt and safety are smoother than the model 70 IMO), if someone would make one of those that allowed for easy swap out of a controlled feed bolt I'd probably buy a dozen right off the bat

I've been considering custom receivers for quite some time as well. Just haven't taken the plunge into that world yet. Unfortunately you can't beat economics, and a round bottom receiver M700 clone is much cheaper to produce than a clone of a M70 or M77. I mean just look at the GMA M98 clones and they start around $3000 for just the action, and M700 clones start at $1000 +/-. If you go commercial actions such as the M70, M77, and M98 you are usually close to $1000 if not more with the purchase of the donor and the blue printing work.

If you want a switch barrel rifle on a M70 receiver, just just buy up as many beat up old Post 64 push feeds as you can in long and short action, magnum and standard bolt faces, if you can find one .223 as well. You could probably even find you a barrel maker that would build you a pre-fit barrel with a barrel nut. That'll probably get you the closest to what you want the cheapest.

As far a getting the barrel off the Howa actions as a home hobbyist, with careful work with a hacksaw making a relief cut around the barrel would probably get it done. I don't know why Howa torques the barrel on so tight, but my gunsmith says a relief cut is the only way to guarantee you won't twist the receiver removing the barrel. This is the way they remove barrels from the 1917 and P14 receivers as well.

I need to find a source of actions as well. I had planned on using the M700 ADL rifles I could pick up from Wally World for under $400. I did buy a couple, but wound up selling the .243 donor and am currently shooting the .223 donor I bought. I put the .223 in a B&C stock and it shoots well enough I'm not interested in changing it at the moment. If Remington M700 are produced again I'll probably stick with them for my budget builds if they still offer a budget model. The 700 ADL package rifle was almost $200 cheaper than the M10/110 XP rifles and about $50 more than the Axis II XP's at my local WM.

I sure miss the days of when I purchased my first brand new Stevens 200 for $175 shipped to my FFL off of gunbroker! I never paid over $300 for a donor Stevens 200 rifle and I just used my last one to build a 6mm Creedmoor. I may swap that barrel out for a .358 Win barrel I have since I got my Howa 6mm Creed.

[stagpanther]

but my gunsmith says a relief cut is the only way to guarantee you won't twist the receiver removing the barrel.

You know how those relief cuts are done? AFAIK you have to come in from inside the barrel and cut up just shy of the lug and stopping before contacting the threads on the receiver. Not likely the average home hobbiest is going to have the hardware to do that properly. I talked to a guy at legacy international about how Howa installs barrels--I'm not sure I understood his words completely--but he mentioned something about about a "back pressure" lock of the barrel to the receiver--in other words it isn't solely a one-direction torque of the barrel to the receiver.

[taylorce1]

My gunsmith said he chucks it up in a lathe and makes the relief cut at the juncture of the the front receiver ring. He cuts down to the barrel tenon diameter and said that relieves the tension on the action. Then most of the time he can screw the barrel off by hand.

However, I did find this ARTICLE and it does look like it takes a fairly long cheater but the guy takes the action and barrel apart fairly easily.

[stagpanther]

My gunsmith said he chucks it up in a lathe and makes the relief cut at the juncture of the the front receiver ring. He cuts down to the barrel tenon diameter and said that relieves the tension on the action.

I have zero experience with gunsmithing lathes--but if I understand correctly--he says he's cutting from the outside of the barrel in? The power of the join I would think is in the contact of the tennon threads to the threads of the receiver--unless the pressure in that interface is taken off--I fail to understand how cutting anywhere else would relieve the pressure?

I saw that same video--in fact bought all of the same equipment per the video--I estimate I achieved somewhere around 300 lbs torque and the barrel still wouldn't budge--but it was a 30 year old gun so who knows what else might be going on. While the video makes it look "easy peasy"--it isn't--and legacy sports int put me in touch with their only howa certified gunsmith in the US and he told me not only do they use a 20 ton hydraulic press to remove barrels from howa actions--but that it's not uncommon that even that won't work and that's when they resort to the 200 ton "piranha" vise to crush down the barrel to get it off.

[Colorado Redneck]

Would heating the action while freezing the barrel help loosen the threads? Packing the barrel in ice and very lightly heating the action, maybe with a blow dryer. I read on another forum, in one post, thread penetrating solvent was allowed to soak in overnight. The poster said his barrel came out easily. All of these ideas are great if it's some other guys gun. It seems dicey to me, trying to save a few bucks and risking ruining an action.

[ReloadKy]

I have bought a savage 110 hunter rifle and had to send it back because a burr in the chamber would not allow a fired case to be ejected properly. After receiveing the rifle back it shot amazing and have since, had no problems with the rifle. My brother bought both of his boys a savage 110 storm for Christmas, because of the accustock they appealed to him (and me for that matter). One of the rifles came with a stripped stock screw hole. I was helping him get scopes mounted and the accustocks set and one screw behind the trigger guard just kept spinning. He called savage and they sent him another stock to replace it. However, when something is bought and paid for with hard earned money, the product purchased should be the best the company can produce. If that is the best Savage can produce on 2 out of 3 rifles then I am done as well.

[Geezerbiker]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

My gunsmith said he chucks it up in a lathe and makes the relief cut at the juncture of the the front receiver ring. He cuts down to the barrel tenon diameter and said that relieves the tension on the action. Then most of the time he can screw the barrel off by hand.

However, I did find this ARTICLE and it does look like it takes a fairly long cheater but the guy takes the action and barrel apart fairly easily.

The gunsmith that rebarreled my 1909 Argentine Mauser said that he did the same thing when he took off the old military barrel. He said it was the only way to be sure and get the old barrel off without damaging the receiver. I didn't argue since the original barrel was monumentally trashed...

[stagpanther]

Would heating the action while freezing the barrel help loosen the threads? Packing the barrel in ice and very lightly heating the action, maybe with a blow dryer. I read on another forum, in one post, thread penetrating solvent was allowed to soak in overnight. The poster said his barrel came out easily. All of these ideas are great if it's some other guys gun. It seems dicey to me, trying to save a few bucks and risking ruining an action.

I tried the temperature difference thing as well as soaking in Kroil--still no budge. It wasn't my gun and I didn't want to damage the receiver so I told he owner he needed to consider sending it to the Howa outfit and get a new barrel--or I could try to fire-lap and polish the bore to see if the consistency would improve. It's purely a hunting gun--so it really isn't important that it printed MOA "all day long"--what is important is that first 2 or three shots consistently went to the same generally area. Something was causing the first shots to vary wildly in POI, the lapping I did did seem to help since that first shot POI variance dropped to a max of about 2.5" at 100, which seems reasonable for a 30 year old well-used gun. Of course, that improvement could be just temporary.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I have zero experience with gunsmithing lathes--but if I understand correctly--he says he's cutting from the outside of the barrel in? 

He's not cutting in, he's removing material where the barrel shouders against the face of the reciever. Once the material is removed that contacts the face of the receiver, the barrel should screw out easily. You only have to remove enough material to be slightly smaller than the OD of the threads.

That's why I suggested VERY careful use of a hacksaw could probably do the job. The saw blade width is all the relief you'll probably need to release the tension. Just be careful you don't cut into the reciever face

[stagpanther]

He's not cutting in, he's removing material where the barrel shouders against the face of the reciever. Once the material is removed that contacts the face of the receiver, the barrel should screw out easily. You only have to remove enough material to be slightly smaller than the OD of the threads.

Ah--yes, I've read of that before. I've read that is still hit or miss with older howa/vanguards. If for any reason that doesn't work, my guess is that the tennon is going to be left behind in the receiver if the barrel fails at that cut. I probably would try that as a last resort--the howa certified guy said he can get them off for around $100 which is pretty reasonable (unless they need to escalate to the "piranha").

[bamaranger]

My goodness, that is terrible. How did that ever slip past inspectors?

[bacardisteve]

Seems a lot of manufacturers are having some quality control issues lately.

[stagpanther]

I took a closer look at all my recent production savages--including a pile of barrels that I yanked from donor rifles. Whether it was a $300 axis or a $1000 110--they had pretty much the same bore finish with the exception of this particular one. The tool chatter pretty much goes up and down the entire bore length, but the last couple of inches to the muzzle usually includes a bit of extra damage--just where it can have the most effect on the bullet. Most commonly I find a "splatter pitting" (even on unfired barrels) similar to the first photo on this thread--I can't tell for sure whether that is a result of the rifling process or some chemical reaction, though it usually has fouling from what I assume is the factory's proof firing so I'm guessing it's from the manufacturing process.

[Onward Allusion]

It's a $350 rifle. Shoot it. Odds are it ain't going to any worst or better.

[stagpanther]

It's a $350 rifle. Shoot it. Odds are it ain't going to any worst or better.

I actually started fire-lapping it to see if I can wear down the trenches somewhat--that's definitely had a positive effect as there are far fewer 8" flyers.

[RC20]

My brothe curses me for forcing him to buy a boro scope (well I offered to lend him mine but no, he guys it)

You actually put a borescope down a Savage barrel? !
What were you thinking you'd find?
It's not a Shilen, or Critereon, or any other number of top match grade barrel makers.

All those barrels are awful he tells me, just awful.

No, look at a hammer forged, they are smooth! they don't shoot for diddly but smooth yes. And that 1903 with the bull shoots lights out, nothign has changed has it?

Dang, just shoot it and see what happens. Its not how it looks its how it shoots.

Or, you ordered a barrel for it, clearly you are just using the base as a donor - you knew it would be bad.

Still bet if you shoot it the thing will smooth out and shoot decent.

Shoot it, clean it with Bore Tech eliminator and Carbon killer 2000 and life will be good!

[stagpanther]

Yup--love the regime--how else would I be able to get to spend 1 hour pulling black patches for 10 shots?