New USAF Aircrew Self Defense Weapon

simonrichter · November 10, 2018, 07:10 AM

Does anybody have any additional information about the foldable M4 varianthttps://www.airforcetimes.com/news/y...ver-shot-down/ that the USAF is fielding not so much as a survival, but as a self defence weapon?

kymasabe · November 10, 2018, 07:54 AM

It looks very much like a variant built in Texas at FoldAR.

raimius · November 11, 2018, 04:26 AM

It is a quick detachable barrel system that allows it to fit into an ejection seat's survival kit. Some people concerned about Combat Search and Rescue realized that the M9's effective range and terminal ballistics were not a very good fit in defending a downed pilot against ISIS and other groups.

The M4 is too large to fit in the seat kit, even partially disassembled. The USAF had to find something quite small, but still wanted similar ballistics and effective range.

simonrichter · November 11, 2018, 05:12 AM

Any ideas why the Air Force didn't want a PDW like the P90 or the MP7? These designs seem to be literally made for the given purpose...

105kw · November 11, 2018, 07:42 AM

PDW or similar would probably require some sort of acceptance procedure, and funding for purchase.

This is just a modification of a shelf weapon, probably much easier to fund and acquire.
My guess anyway.

PSP · November 11, 2018, 05:39 PM

Why not a PDW is a good question. The MP7 is already in use by the U.S. govt.

simonrichter · November 13, 2018, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Why not a PDW is a good question. The MP7 is already in use by the U.S. govt.

Is it indeed?

raimius · November 13, 2018, 12:19 PM

Range, terminal ballistics, training time, cost and logistical support.

Fishbed77 · November 13, 2018, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Any ideas why the Air Force didn't want a PDW like the P90 or the MP7? These designs seem to be literally made for the given purpose...

5.56x45mm is a more effective cartridge in almost all respects, and there is a commonality in ammunition, magazines, maintenance, and training versus other options.

simonrichter · November 14, 2018, 05:20 AM

Quote:

5.56x45mm is a more effective cartridge in almost all respects, and there is a commonality in ammunition, magazines, maintenance, and training versus other options.

I reckon for the given, extremely limited use that would have been an acceptable trade-off, though...

Fishbed77 · November 15, 2018, 09:33 PM

Quote:

I reckon for the given, extremely limited use that would have been an acceptable trade-off, though...

All the more reason to use a familiar system.

Rachen · November 16, 2018, 08:54 PM

Quote:

M9's effective range and terminal ballistics were not a very good fit in defending a downed pilot against ISIS and other groups.

A lot of these extremist groups have succeeded in toppling regional governments over the recent years. Which means that their arsenals have upgraded exponentially. Including body armor. From pictures taken of the conflict sites in Syria and Iraq, many, if not most of the ISIS terrorists were wearing body armor and were sporting thermals/FLIR and other hi-tech devices.

Siggy-06 · November 18, 2018, 09:51 PM

P90's with the proper rounds will pierce some types of body armors, and the 50 round magainzes are nothing to sneeze at.

Rachen · November 18, 2018, 10:53 PM

Quote:

P90's with the proper rounds will pierce some types of body armors, and the 50 round magainzes are nothing to sneeze at.

This.

I am an avid Stargate SG-1 fan. Always saw the P90 as a real fightin' man's weapon. Especially someone in one of the techy branches of the military that deals with aerospace and missiles and such. Though I am not much of a fan of the 5.7x28mm round. They are still a rare bird compared to other much more effective and much more common calibers. A P90 chambered in 5.56 would be an ideal self-defense weapon for an air crew as well as an infantryman's primary arm.

Fishbed77 · November 19, 2018, 12:44 PM

Quote:

P90's with the proper rounds will pierce some types of body armors, and the 50 round magainzes are nothing to sneeze at.

That is true, but 5.56x45mm will perform better, and 30 round magazines are nothing to sneeze at.

5.56x45mm is already in the supply pipeline, and is going to be considerably easier to acquire if needed in a survival situation than 5.7x28mm will ever be.

stonewall50 · November 19, 2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishbed77

5.56x45mm is a more effective cartridge in almost all respects, and there is a commonality in ammunition, magazines, maintenance, and training versus other options.

Lol...just give them a rifle they fires a 5.56 and a 7.62...sigh. If only.

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raimius · November 20, 2018, 02:47 AM

5.7 does not meet the requirements. Something in the 5.56 ballistic range was required, due to how the carbine is intended to be used and other weapons available to a CSAR task force.

November 10, 2018, 07:10 AM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	New USAF Aircrew Self Defense Weapon Does anybody have any additional information about the foldable M4 varianthttps://www.airforcetimes.com/news/y...ver-shot-down/ that the USAF is fielding not so much as a survival, but as a self defence weapon? __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

November 10, 2018, 07:54 AM	#2
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,747	It looks very much like a variant built in Texas at FoldAR. __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

November 11, 2018, 05:12 AM	#4
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	Any ideas why the Air Force didn't want a PDW like the P90 or the MP7? These designs seem to be literally made for the given purpose... __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

November 18, 2018, 09:51 PM	#13
Siggy-06 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 1,148	P90's with the proper rounds will pierce some types of body armors, and the 50 round magainzes are nothing to sneeze at. __________________ Flicks just like a lighter, just a different kind of fire.

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November 11, 2018, 04:26 AM	#3
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	It is a quick detachable barrel system that allows it to fit into an ejection seat's survival kit. Some people concerned about Combat Search and Rescue realized that the M9's effective range and terminal ballistics were not a very good fit in defending a downed pilot against ISIS and other groups. The M4 is too large to fit in the seat kit, even partially disassembled. The USAF had to find something quite small, but still wanted similar ballistics and effective range.

November 11, 2018, 07:42 AM	#5
105kw Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2017 Location: Columbia Basin Washington Posts: 413	PDW or similar would probably require some sort of acceptance procedure, and funding for purchase. This is just a modification of a shelf weapon, probably much easier to fund and acquire. My guess anyway.

November 11, 2018, 05:39 PM	#6
PSP Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2006 Location: Bowling Green Virginia Posts: 4,487	Why not a PDW is a good question. The MP7 is already in use by the U.S. govt.

November 13, 2018, 12:19 PM	#8
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Range, terminal ballistics, training time, cost and logistical support.

November 20, 2018, 02:47 AM	#17
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	5.7 does not meet the requirements. Something in the 5.56 ballistic range was required, due to how the carbine is intended to be used and other weapons available to a CSAR task force.