Factory crimp die

[willr]

I use factory crimp die for 45 aCP, 38 SPL, 9 mm, 327 fed mag and 30-06. The warning about roll crimps for revolver cartridges with plated bullets is that it must not be too tight or else it can remove the plating when the cartridge is fired. I haven't had this problem, but have heard of it happening. So care is called for -- as is all parts of the reloading process.

willr

[Nordeste]

I have knocked out the sizing ring in my Carbide FCD for 9 mm. I found out it was undersizing my plated bullets, which is all I use. Since then, not a single round has failed to feed and my accuracy has improved. Don't plan on using it any longer as long as I use plated. I'll probably get another one just to have it handy in case I use FMJ. The use of this die can be beneficial if you use .355" FMJ bullets, not so much if you use .356" plated or lead bullets. In these, the sizing ring is likely to swage your bullets.

As I said, I have converted mine to a crimp only die and have adjusted my seating die so it doesn't remove the flare done on the powder through-expanding die. I learned that I had to back off my seating a full turn and a half, apart from the three that Lee reccomends, in order to get it to seat the bullet and leave some belling on the case.

Works for me.

[marvintm1]

I tried a LFCD in 9mm and noticed the taper crimp angle was far too steep. It bordered on a roll crimp and left a sharp bur on the case mouth even at light crimps. My standard Hornady taper die has a very long taper with a fine polish finish. You can crimp to extreme amounts creating a smooth long taper (grabbing more bullet) and no signs of distress on the brass or cutting into the jacket. It leaves Zero roll on the mouth for a nice square edge to headspace. You can see photo proof of the long Hornady taper on this thread I did some time ago... http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494465

Then I started using the LFCD without any crimp just for the post sizing ring only, and could not record any difference with calipers before/after. At least with my sizing /decapping dies, it made no difference in anything, so I quit using it.

I highly recommend separate dies for crimp and seat, LFCD or whatever. In a single step die, the bullet never stops being pressed downward while the crimp is applied tighter, shearing the bullet into the crimp as its applied. It works, but its a compromise. Commercial equipment always use separate stations for crimp for a good reason.

If the LFCD gets you away from single step seat/crimp - thats a good thing. IMO There are just better quality crimp dies out there. ymmv

[CrustyFN]

Even when not using oversized bullets, you can still have thicker cases and end up deforming your bullets. If your process is bad enough that you need that ring to reliably feed the ammo, you need to stop and fix your process, not cover up the problems with a lousy, lazy solution like that resizer ring.

Did you ever think there might be other uses for the post sizing ring besides fixing bad ammo? I have been using them for eight years and have loaded thousands of rounds of 9mm, 38/357 and 45 auto with lead and jacketed bullets and have only had two rounds get post sized, they were both 9mm with FMJ bullets. I use the post sizing ring as a case gauge and it works great for that.

[Scimmia]

Something that silently deforms your rounds is not a case gauge.

[steve4102]

Something that silently deforms your rounds is not a case gauge.

Correct, that would be called a Hammer.

The LFCD does not "Deform" the case either.

Have you ever used the LFDC for handgun ammunition?

If you have and the carbide ring was deforming the case as you say, then either the die was defective(happens) or your loads were defective before they entered the LFCD.

[Gunnels]

RAS-OSCAR, as you may have picked up from this thread so far use of the crimping die can be controversial as least among some reloaders. There have already been several good explanations of what it does.

My best advice to you as a beginning reloader is to get the four die set which includes the Factory Crimp Die and use the FCD at least initially. My best guess is about 90% of reloaders use it. At this point in time in your reloading experience you have too many other things to focus on. When you first start reloading you will have issues with the bullets not feeding properly in the gun. If you use the FCD you will at least know it is not crimp causing the problem. In a few years, after you have enough experience, you might want to weigh the pro's and con's on not using it. When you first start out abide by the Keep It Simple and using it the crimp die will do that.

[Brian Pfleuger]

90% of reloaders use a FCD? How could you have possibly arrived at that conclusion?! I would be positively astounded if the number was 1/3 that high. I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if it was 1/10 that high. Adding a die that's only made by one company and does a completely different task than any other die made is "keeping it simple"?

Properly set up dies do not require the use of an FCD properly set up taper dies do not require separate seating and crimping. People seem to think that a taper "crimp" is meant to actually crimp. It's poorly named. It's only there to iron out the case flare (which is also not needed a lot of the time) and a taper "crimp" is not meant to hold a bullet in place. It should be called a "flare remover".

Not only do I not use an FCD, I don't flare the case mouth either (nor use lead bullets). Anyone using jacketed bullets should have no need for flaring and no one "needs" an FCD. Certainly nowhere near 90% of reloaders use them.

[steve4102]

^^^
Brian I think he meant 90% of the people that bought the Four Die Set, use the Crimp die that came with the Lee Set. Not 90% of all handloaders.

get the four die set which includes the Factory Crimp Die and use the FCD at least initially. My best guess is about 90% of reloaders use it.

[flashhole]

That was how I read it too.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well... That could be true... else why would you buy it? Sort of like, 90% of people who buy a battery charger use the batteries that came with it. Well... yeah.

[Scimmia]

Correct, that would be called a Hammer.

The LFCD does not "Deform" the case either.

Have you ever used the LFDC for handgun ammunition?

If you have and the carbide ring was deforming the case as you say, then either the die was defective(happens) or your loads were defective before they entered the LFCD.

The entire purpose of the carbide ring is to deform the round, crushing it to conform to what Lee is guessing will be needed to feed. A gauge will tell you something is wrong so you can inspect the round then go back and fix it. Two very different things. People who say they use it as a case gauge are fooling themselves.

I have used a handgun FCD, but with the carbide ring removed. It's not a bad crimp die, but I don't need it crushing rounds for me.

[steve4102]

The entire purpose of the carbide ring is to deform the round, crushing it to conform to what Lee is guessing will be needed to feed.

That's is nonsense and you know it. The LFCD neither deforms or crushes anything and there is absolutely NO guessing.

Lee has set the carbide ring diameter to SAAMI specs for Factory ammunition, hence the name Factory Crimp die. An example would be the 10mm/40 S&W. The external dimension according to SAAMI is .4231. The Carbide ring in the 10MM/40 crimp die matches this dimension. Pretty simple and straight forward, no crushing, no deforming and no guessing, just checking your handloads to see if you screwed up someplace and your ammo is out of specs. Kinda like a case gauge.

[fretless33]

Originally Posted by steve4102

That's is nonsense and you know it. The LFCD neither deforms or crushes anything and there is absolutely NO guessing.



Lee has set the carbide ring diameter to SAAMI specs for Factory ammunition, hence the name Factory Crimp die. An example would be the 10mm/40 S&W. The external dimension according to SAAMI is .4231. The Carbide ring in the 10MM/40 crimp die matches this dimension. Pretty simple and straight forward, no crushing, no deforming and no guessing, just checking your handloads to see if you screwed up someplace and your ammo is out of specs. Kinda like a case gauge.

I just got the factory crimp dies for 9mm and 40 cal and from what the instructions say not every case will get resized, only if they're out of spec. They say it's just another safety check so you won't have a bad day at the range.

[Unclenick]

Ideally, if you have correctly resized normal brass and correct size bullets, the Carbide FCD's carbide ring won't touch the cartridge. If you have a fat round, whether it sizes the bullet down further (the aforementioned deformation) or not, depends on how wide the bullet is and/or on how thick the brass is. It may also just iron out a case bulge caused by over-crimping.

I have run into foreign made .45 Auto brass before that was too thick. I've forgotten the headstamp, as it was some time ago. The bullet that came in it originally was 0.449". It was jacketed and shot OK for steel targets. As soon as I tried to load a 0.452" cast bullet into that brass, though, I found it would not drop into any of my .45 Auto chambers. At that point, if I forced it through the Carbide FCD, the die would have sized the bullet down by squeezing it via squeezing the neck. Bullets can withstand some sizing, but in that instance it would be sized below groove diameter, which causes cast bullets to shoot less accurately and to leave a lot of lead behind in the bore. That's just not a match made in heaven.

[Scimmia]

It's not a safety check, it's a lazy way of fixing your screw ups that doesn't even help you find the problems and fix them. The ring is there to crush rounds that someone thinks may not feed in an exceptionally tight pistol. After they're crushed, they'll feed.

steve4102, you might want to look up the definition of crush. That's exactly what it does and what it's designed to do.

[steve4102]

Correct, it will not find the problem for you, but it will give you an indication that you may have a problem.

If your loaded rounds make hard contact with the carbide ring, look for a problem as this is not the norm. If your loaded rounds do not fit a case gauge or your barrel, look for a problem, hey they both do the same thing, cool.

[Brian Pfleuger]

As much as I have no use for the FCD, the idea that the carbide sizing ring "crushes" the rounds is more than a little ridiculous. It does the exact same thing that any other carbide die does to brass. No one calls that "crushing" the brass.

The actual crimp certainly can crush the bullet. It's even advertised by Lee to do it on purpose. They advertise (or have) that you can make your own cannelures.

The carbide ring is just a slightly less than SAAMI max sizer. It doesn't "crush" anything.

[Scimmia]

The actual crimp certainly can crush the bullet. It's even advertised by Lee to do it on purpose. They advertise (or have) that you can make your own cannelures.

Totally and completely false. You're thinking of the bottleneck FCD, which has nothing at all do to with the handgun FCD being discussed here.

No one calls that "crushing" the brass.

It crushes the loaded rounds, mostly crushing the bullet, not the brass.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Scimmia

It crushes the loaded rounds, mostly crushing the bullet, not the brass.

I have asked you this once before and I will try one more time.

Have you ever used the Lee Factory Crimp die utilizing the carbide sizing ring?

If you have, did you experience post sizing of the loaded rounds to the point of "Crushing" the bullet?

If you have there are a couple reasons for this, 1) your die was out of spec and should have been returned to Lee. 2) Your loads were out of spec or damaged in some way during your loading process. 3) As Unclenick has pointed out, "I have run into foreign made .45 Auto brass before that was too thick."

If you have not used or tried the Lee Factory Crimp die, why the total hatred for a tool you have no first hand knowledge of how it works?

I don't get it, if it didn't work for you, great, tell us your story, maybe someone can help. If you have never used it what's your point and what do you base your comments on?

[Scimmia]

Have you ever used the Lee Factory Crimp die utilizing the carbide sizing ring?

And as I said, no, I've only used them with the ring knocked out. I don't just use things blindly, I understand my tools before I use them and make my own decisions.

You mentioned a hammer earlier, if someone was giving advice not to use a hammer on a loaded round, would you be asking them if they've tried it? This is really no different. You don't have to screw something up to recognize a horrible idea. Post sizing rounds can lead to nothing good.

Your argument seems to be that the ring does nothing, so why are you arguing for it? Theoretically it should do nothing, but that's not what happens in the real world. Brass variations, oversized bullets, or crooked bullets are just some of the situations where this thing will cause problems.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Scimmia

Your argument seems to be that the ring does nothing, so why are you arguing for it? Theoretically it should do nothing, but that's not what happens in the real world. Brass variations, oversized bullets, or crooked bullets are just some of the situations where this thing will cause problems.

...and you know this how? You have never used it, how do you know this?

Good question.
I argue for it because purchasing the Lee Four die set is a great buy, the Crimp feature of the LFCD works great and I am a fan of seating and crimping in separate steps.

I argue for it because I like the fact that the amount of crimp can be adjusted with just a twist of the top adjustment knob without messing with the lock ring and adjusting the whole die in or out.

I argue for it because it acts like a case gauge and If I do happen to have a round with brass to thick or and out of spec round, it will let me know that I have a problem and I should investigate said problem.

I argue for it because I KNOW that each and every round that has been sent through this die uninterrupted and not post sized is perfect and will chamber smoothly in my pistols.

I argue for it because there are some handloaders out there that are convinced and try to convince others that it is evil and will "crush" and "deform" loaded rounds, even though they have Never used it.

I argue for it because I use it, I like it and it works well. I base my arguments on first hand experience and use of the tool, what to you base your arguments on? Theory, guesswork, what?

[Scimmia]

I argue for it because I use it, I like it and it works well. I base my arguments on first hand experience and use of the tool, what to you base your arguments on? Theory, guesswork, what?

Common sense.

[Slamfire]

If you knock out the resizing ring at the bottom, they're decent crimp dies. With the resizing ring, they're more of a problem than a solution.

I agree for the Lee Factory Crimp Die with the carbide sizing ring. I stopped using mine because it was swaging the bullets down. I pulled loaded rounds that went through the carbide LFCD and the bullets had been swaged. I spend good time and money getting bullets that are the proper diameter for my pistols, I don't need some die making them smaller. My pistol ammunition feeds and shoots fine without this thing.

This device is just another example of advertizing induced behavior. I am of the opinion that most of our culture is a creation of corporate advertizing bureaus, and here, you can see it in action.

[steve4102]

Common sense.

Now that's funny.

Common sense, says "don't knock it till you try".

“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.”
― Hippocrates