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Old January 4, 2017, 01:37 PM   #51
FrankenMauser
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Any time.
I couldn't remember which model numbers they were, but did remember that the 5mm RRM rifles were a "popular" conversion platform for guys turning to .22 CCM (based on converted Hornet cases, rather than the crumbly Fiocchi garbage mentioned previously in this thread).
So... I googled it. Shameful, but it got me where I needed to be.

And I really don't understand the hatred for 'rear-locking' bolts on rimfires. Lots of rifles use the arrangement, but only those that are unpopular (or total failures) for other reasons get picked on for it.
Heck, even the now-discontinued centerfire Ruger 77/-- series used rear locking lugs, in addition to the rimfires.

I understand the theory of extra parts creating extra play being less than desirable for precision rifles. But the reality is that most of them are just as tight and repeatable as the typical forward-lug arrangement; and none of them were designed with 'match grade' performance in mind.

For that matter... I'd say that the most popular bolt-action rimfire rifle designs in history have been rear-locking, typically on just the bolt handle!
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Old January 4, 2017, 03:52 PM   #52
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Yep, people knock the rear-locking rifles, then in the same breath start telling you about the 788 they wish they had.
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Old January 5, 2017, 03:43 PM   #53
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On a technical level, the 2XX WSSM seem like good ideas, but their benefits and calibers are overshadowed by a lot of historically entrenched cartridges.

Similarly, 30 OSSM is probably going to slip under the waves.
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Old January 5, 2017, 03:47 PM   #54
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amazing how stupid Remington was and is to put so much into the 8MM rem mag a round one in ten thousand hunters would use and let the 6MM 280 and 30 AR die a slow death
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Old January 5, 2017, 05:27 PM   #55
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If I remember correctly, Elmer got royalty monies from the .30-378 wby. Wonder why he did not like a competing round in rifles that were half the price?(8mm Remington)
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Old January 6, 2017, 12:30 AM   #56
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5.56 caseless, in the US civilian market anyway.
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Old January 6, 2017, 10:12 PM   #57
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All of the Etronx cartridges failed hard.
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Old January 11, 2017, 12:12 PM   #58
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I predicted a LOT of failures, and fail they did...

The WSSM family: these were an uphill battle against some well loved cartridges. The .25 was an obvious insta-flop (Americans as a whole have no love for the quarter bore), but the .223 and 243 WSSMs didn't fare any better.

The RSAUM family: it was going to be RSAUM or WSM, and frankly WSM was marketed better and rolled off the tongue easier.

The WSM family: the .300 and .270 were all that stood a chance...maybe the 7mm IF it hadn't been released late. Weight shaving elk hunters are a niche market. I see more of them packing a long mag, coping with the weight, and reaping the performance.

The RUM family. It was going to be .300 or nothing here....and it is. Fastest way to toss a 180-220gr .30 cal without going to proprietary Weatherby cases...but the loaded ammo still costs as much. The others? Nope.

The RCM family: there is "fashionably late" and then there is "Dude, the party was yesterday!". Not really sure what Ruger was thinking here. The stopping rifle category is small and full. The "long-range 20" brush gun" category...does that niche even exist?

.338 Federal: this is faring better than I had thought it would, and I must say I'm shocked. Introduced into nearly nonexistent gap between the .308 and .358, but lacking the powder capacity to drive heavy bullets fast & flat, I admittedly called this one wrong.

The Marlin Express family: nostalgia wasn't going to make western hunters trade their '06 or .270 for a proprietary round that offered less performance, in a gun that offers less inherent accuracy, and just ONE bullet choice. Eastern brush hunters didn't need the thing. I liked the idea of the .308 MX, but knew what would happen. The .338 MX was wishful thinking on Marlin's part.

The .450 Marlin: a niche round with a lot of potential, un-seating the .45-70 was always going to be a tough row to hoe. My understanding is that it is being kept alive in Alaska. A bit light for Africa's heaviest game, Alaska was always its one true home.

And from history:

I'll trot out my favorite, the .257 Roberts: a 57mm case factory loaded to match the length of a .308's 51mm case, the deep seated bullet eats up powder capacity, and makes a long action wasteful for all but hand loaders. It comes factory loaded at 2 levels: a "standard" light load that equals the .250 Savage, and a "+P" that is only a +P because some old, weak, military guns (Mauser 88s & Japanese "last ditch" rifles) got themselves rechambered to it. Factory ammo is often loaded with 117gr RN bullets intended for the 25-35.
What is to be gleaned from the .257Bob's tale? Simple: like the 7mm-06/.280/7mmER/.280, and the .244/6mm, if you want to kill off a cartridge, just confuse the shooting public.
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Old January 11, 2017, 08:04 PM   #59
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I don't think the .244 was confusing, I think a too slow of a twist and competing with the M70 sealed it's fate early on. The .243 caught on, sorta.
All those short and not so short non-belted magnums were/are mind boggling!
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Old January 12, 2017, 06:11 PM   #60
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I own a couple of calibers that are considered "low popularity" cartridges but I would not call them failed cartridges. I have a Remington 700 in358 Winchester that is as good as any 308 in its ability to take game at range and I own a couple of Brownings in 257 Roberts that will easily keep up with any 243 in taking game or varmints at range. They are not popular rounds but they are effective and what I wanted. The only thing wrong with these cartridges is that they were marketed wrong (the 358) or under loaded and brought to the market at the wrong time (the 257 Roberts). With modern pressures and the right gun they are spectacular performers on a par with most hunting rounds.
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Old January 12, 2017, 06:32 PM   #61
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Cartridges run in trends, just like cars and planes and clothes. The winners are the ones that are marketed better than the others.

Back in the 1930s, the 22 Donaldson reigned supreme on the range, but no one out in the field ever carried one. It died in the 1950s when the 222 Remington made its appearance because peopel could buy a rifle chambered for a cartridge that was winning on the ranges and performed well in the field.

Seems like just a few years ago (mid-1970s), 22 PPC ruled the benchrest course, so Remington tried introducing the BR cartridges. They made it much too complicated by offering BR brass that was full-sized 308 with a small primer, and making dies available. Most shooters did not want any part of that. They forgot KISS.

Winchester thought they could replace the 220 Swift after it had ruled for 30-ish years, so they introduced the 225 Winchester to go head to head with the new 22-250 Remington. It died without a whimper.

Same can be said about quite a few offerings over the years, biggest, bestest, purtiest, powerfullest and available NOW at your local gun store! Buy one soon! And the crowd yawned and walked away. They never "created a need", never marketed the new creations, and so they got poor results. Poor sales result in dropped products. I say good riddance, but some folks are disappointed by the passing of the 307 Winchester, the 308 MX, the 375 Winchester, the 30 TC, and a slew of other never-rans introduced to much fanfare but without thought as to why.
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Old January 13, 2017, 08:44 PM   #62
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In the last ten years, periodic brass shortages might have had a lot to do with success.

Back in '08 it took nine months on back-order to get .50 Beowulf brass when I needed some.
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Old January 13, 2017, 09:57 PM   #63
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350 REM mag. 6.5 rem mag
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Old January 13, 2017, 10:04 PM   #64
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Quote:
In the last ten years, periodic brass shortages might have had a lot to do with success.

Back in '08 it took nine months on back-order to get .50 Beowulf brass when I needed some.
A drop in the bucket.

Sierra went 5.5 years between production runs of their .312" 90 gr JHC, even though it was in higher demand than ever before in company history.


And there were a few guys that waited over 3 years to get their backordered .458 SOCOMS from Wilson Combat (and then probably regretted it immediately anyway ).
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Old January 14, 2017, 11:52 AM   #65
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I guess Scorch has a point with ammo availability. Years back reloading was not really that big like it is now. If you could not buy the ammo at the local sports shop, that cartridge soon went away. Others simply do not catch on, ammo or not.
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Old January 14, 2017, 02:44 PM   #66
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I think some cartridges that have been mentioned, like the RUM line, have not at all failed. They were brought to market knowing they would only appeal to a tiny niche market. That is exactly what they did, appeal to a tiny niche market.
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Old January 14, 2017, 03:48 PM   #67
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I dunno about that. The "Tiny niche market" has been tried numerous times and mostly failed due to cost. Better off with a wildcat.
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Old January 14, 2017, 04:35 PM   #68
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Wouldn't imagine those niche market cartridges make the bean counters very happy.
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Old January 14, 2017, 08:33 PM   #69
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My model 375 marlin will never leave my side, I load for it and love to hunt with it, the 307-356-358 all good hunting rounds, what a shame they did not make it !!!!
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Old January 15, 2017, 02:44 PM   #70
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The 358 Winchester is as good out to 250 yards as the 3006 is when both are using 180 grain bullets. The puzzle I don't understand is why it is most often referred to as a short range woods cartridge. It is a great hunting cartridge for large game under most conditions.
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Old January 15, 2017, 02:54 PM   #71
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People consider the .358 Win to be a 'short range' and/or 'brush gun' because of the trajectory of the bullets.

In today's world (even going back a few decades), the expectation is that a hunter can use the same hold from 25 yards to 350+ yards, without worrying about bullet drop.

So, most people consider cartridges with bullet trajectories that actually have to be compensated for to be inferior and only good for short range.

Those people would have nightmares if they saw what I, and many other members here, hunt with.
There's a dope card in the case for my .444 Marlin single-shot with drift and drop data to 144 inches (12 feet) of drop ... and the bullet only starts at 1,850 fps.
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Old January 15, 2017, 05:30 PM   #72
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If you haven't heard of maximum point blank range I suggest you take a look at the specs. While it is not the "be all, end all" way to compare or evaluate cartridges it is probably one of the fairest ways to compare dissimilar cartridges. The process assumes a 6" diameter target zone that can be hit without adjusting sights or using "Kentucky windage".

The 35 Remington has a MPBR of 186 with a 200 grain bullet.
The 358 Winchester has a MPBR of 239 yards with a 200 grain bullet.
The 3006 has a MPBR of 269 yards with a 180 grain bullet.
The difference between the 35 Rem and the 358 Win is 53 yards and between the 358 Win and the 3006 is 30 yards.

The longest MPBR of the magnum cartridges with a same weight bullet is only 320 yards. I could find no cartridge that can get closer to 350 yards without sight adjustment or hold over. Remember that the MPBR has no more rise or drop from point of aim than 3 inches in order to hit a six inch target.
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Old January 15, 2017, 10:34 PM   #73
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That's a good way to compare cartridges, it puts them all on even footing. Except some people want to claim superiority simply on velocity of ft-lbs of energy. I find a 300 RUM a little much when shooting varmints, and my 218 Bee doesn't cut it on elk.
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Old January 16, 2017, 07:30 PM   #74
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Scortch,
I found it more useful as a hunter than the measured values of energy or momentum at a given range. I don't shoot at record breaking distances where a clean and quick one shot kill is desired (if shooting at an animal). I am intimately familiar with the fact that a slightly felt wind can change a point of impact more than the ballistic path in a relatively short time and choose to limit my shots to those that I am sure of even if the wind should change in the moment I pull the trigger. Staying within the first 66% of MPBR is, for me, a good rule of thumb.
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Old January 18, 2017, 11:44 AM   #75
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The biggest problem with the .280 Remington is that it tried to compete with the .270 Winchester, which had nearly a 50 year head start.

It offered virtually identical ballistics.

It's hung on, having developed a small following, but it's never going to surplant the .270.


When I think of a failed cartridge, I think of a round that's introduced, is chambered for a few years, and then is unceremoniously dumped because people just didn't want it. Other companies might pick it up occasionally, ammo may be produced for quite some years, but it never was, and never will be, a common gunshop item that gets people interested in a "I really need one of those!" way.

Some good candidates are:

8mm Remington Magnum

.225 Winchester

.256 Winchester (previously mentioned)

.244 Remington (got a new lease on life as the 6mm)

6.5 Remington Magnum

.32 Winchester Self Loading

.35 Winchester Self Loading

.450 Marlin


Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Rounds like the .25-35 don't qualify as failed cartridges because the round was quite popular for several decades.
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