.357 Magnum pistol vs rifle

MadDawg · March 15, 2015, 05:38 PM

I have some 158 grain jacketed hollowpoints. Looking at a couple of different places for recipes; hodgdonreloading and the Lee book (2nd ed ). in both, it seems that under rifle, there is no recipe for Lil'Gun, but there is for HS6. Under pistol for both, there is recipes for both Lil'Gun and HS-6. I have both rifles and pistols in .357; does what I describe above mean that I should not shoot rounds loaded with Lil'gun out of the rifle??? Or should I have gotten some H110 instead ?

Is there any harm in shooting ammo loaded with lil'gun out of a rifle ? 18 and 20 inch barrels ?

Thanks.

Snyper · March 15, 2015, 05:46 PM

Any safe data for the cartridge can be used in any gun chambered for the cartridge

It will gain a lot of velocity in a rifle

mmb713 · March 15, 2015, 06:13 PM

If you look at the load data for 357 Magnum rifle and pistol in Hodgdon's manual you will find that the recipes are identical. Why they didn't include Lil Gun in the rifle section is a question for Hodgdon. There is no reason Lil Gun loads would not be safe in a rifle. Load it up and shoot it.

Nick_C_S · March 15, 2015, 06:42 PM

In the Speer #14 manual, there is a separate section for 357 Mag rifle and pistol. But only the ballistic data are different - showing different fps's for rifle and pistol respectively. The load data - the powder charge weights - are all the same.

Basically, you can load 357 Mag the same for pistol and rifle. That's said however, the slower powders will really come into their own with a long rifle barrel. That H110 would be an excellent choice for the application.

MadDawg · March 15, 2015, 07:01 PM

Thanks, guys... It was kind of puzzling; I really didn't want to break into the 8 pound bottle of HS6....

H110, I think I saw on the shelves at the LGS. Lil'Gun, I have three 1 pound bottles of...

skizzums · March 15, 2015, 08:48 PM

lil gun is fine, and is good powder with the heavier-weights. burns hot though, I wouldn't be rapid firing it with a lever for too long. with 158s I stay on the light side with lil gun, I believe at 16.2 for my 20" lever. you don't need to get on the high side of a load to get impressive velocities out of a 357 rifle barrel, although they can usually handle the higher pressures better than a pistol anyways, so it's your choice.

MarkGlazer · March 15, 2015, 08:58 PM

Looking at Lymans, you have a few other choices for powders that are common to both the revolver and the rifle using a 158 gr "Jacketed HP" bullet(as quoted in the data); Blue Dot, AA #9, 2400, N110 and IMR 4227.

Last year I asked the board if it was wise to limit the powders that I would use for both pistol and rifle as I "thought" I could save $ if I purchased a single powder in bulk. (Sorry I'm a financial guy and it's natural progression of thought for me.) Not yet having a complete understanding and respect for the dimensions and speed of powder rendered to each of the associated weapons at the time, I was met with a plethora of educated responses. The overall review was such that each type of gun has such unique characteristics that they should be met with appropriate powder. As such, I now evaluate data versus the burn rate chart before I decide what I'm buying, i.e. a pistol is going to be matched with a faster burning powder while the rifle will require a slower powder, in your case, Lil'Gun is in the middle of the chart, ideal for the rifle.

At the end of the month I will actually purchase a 357 lever, have always wanted one and now is the time. I've decided that 4227 will be used to stock this weapon while I stick with Titegroup for the pistol.

Obviously the choice is yours but I think you may not gain the performance you are looking for in the revolver that you will get in the rifle.

Good luck. Enjoy. Be safe.

joneb · March 15, 2015, 10:37 PM

If you have a warm load for your handgun it maybe to hot for you rifle, cylinder gap of a revolver relieves pressure. I load for both but my handgun loads are downloaded for rifle.

skizzums · March 16, 2015, 04:45 AM

A warm load will not be too hot for a rifle, despite the slight added pressure. I don't know of any 357 mag RIFLE that cannot handle higher pressures than a revolver. Cylinder gap or not, safe in a revolver, it'll be safe in your rifle. The velocity can be much higher in the rifle, so if you see any loads that are downloaded for a rifle rather than a revolver, it will only be because the particular bullet your loading for may only be rated up to a certain speed, like 1800. Like you may notice recommended loadings for 110gr gold dots may be less in the rifle only for optimal speed for the bullet itself, not because of overpressure concwrns

buck460XVR · March 16, 2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:

does what I describe above mean that I should not shoot rounds loaded with Lil'gun out of the rifle???

If it twere me, I'd not fret about the lil' Gun loads outta the rifle, but refrain from shooting any of them in my revolver.

**44 AMP** · March 16, 2015, 11:05 AM

There are OTHER reasons besides safety why a given powder is not listed with a given bullet in a given section.

One if them is simple efficiency. A powder that doesn't work "well enough" in a rifle often won't be listed. And "well enough" is in the eyes of the guys doing the testing.

You can create a safe load for a .30-30 with Bullseye, for example. It won't match the performance most people are looking for, but it can be safe, and accurate. But you won't find it listed in most manuals. Simply because its not the best powder for that job, and there are practical limits on what you test, and write up in your manuals.

MarkDozier · March 16, 2015, 02:45 PM

I have just worked loads for my 357 rifle. Hornady XTP 158 grain with 14 grains of 296. Load data was acceptable for both. I nice round in the rifle. And in the pistol it is so fun to shoot that it is like good tater chips. You can shoot just one.

Snyper · March 16, 2015, 02:56 PM

While most all safe loads are interchangeable between rifles and handguns, not all will be accurate in both, so it's still a good idea to experiment with loads for each individual gun if you want the full potential

Clark · March 16, 2015, 05:26 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I converted 1965 Colt Police positive from 38 special to 357 mag.
The max load for 158 gr 357 mag is 18 gr LIL'GUN.
I was shooting 26 gr. It kicked, it was loud, and that powder is hard to fit.
The chamber walls are 0.065" thick.

I have a 38 Special rifle, a 1905 Rolling block No 5.
The max load for 357 mag 158 gr is 6.5 gr Bullseye.
I have worked up to 13 gr when a small magnum primer will pierce.
The chamber wall is 0.480" thick.

In 1991 John Bercovitz explained why chamber wall thickness drives the threshold of difficult extraction, which drives changes in the SAAMI registered max average pressure for 357 mag:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...0/cBSU4bR2jz8J

I can run much higher pressures in most other guns than revolvers. The threshold of difficult extraction [sticky cases] is very low when one finger tip extracts 6 cases.

March 15, 2015, 05:46 PM	#2
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	Any safe data for the cartridge can be used in any gun chambered for the cartridge It will gain a lot of velocity in a rifle __________________ One shot, one kill

March 15, 2015, 06:42 PM	#4
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	In the Speer #14 manual, there is a separate section for 357 Mag rifle and pistol. But only the ballistic data are different - showing different fps's for rifle and pistol respectively. The load data - the powder charge weights - are all the same. Basically, you can load 357 Mag the same for pistol and rifle. That's said however, the slower powders will really come into their own with a long rifle barrel. That H110 would be an excellent choice for the application. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

March 15, 2015, 08:48 PM	#6
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	lil gun is fine, and is good powder with the heavier-weights. burns hot though, I wouldn't be rapid firing it with a lever for too long. with 158s I stay on the light side with lil gun, I believe at 16.2 for my 20" lever. you don't need to get on the high side of a load to get impressive velocities out of a 357 rifle barrel, although they can usually handle the higher pressures better than a pistol anyways, so it's your choice. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 15, 2015, 08:58 PM	#7
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	Looking at Lymans, you have a few other choices for powders that are common to both the revolver and the rifle using a 158 gr "Jacketed HP" bullet(as quoted in the data); Blue Dot, AA #9, 2400, N110 and IMR 4227. Last year I asked the board if it was wise to limit the powders that I would use for both pistol and rifle as I "thought" I could save $ if I purchased a single powder in bulk. (Sorry I'm a financial guy and it's natural progression of thought for me.) Not yet having a complete understanding and respect for the dimensions and speed of powder rendered to each of the associated weapons at the time, I was met with a plethora of educated responses. The overall review was such that each type of gun has such unique characteristics that they should be met with appropriate powder. As such, I now evaluate data versus the burn rate chart before I decide what I'm buying, i.e. a pistol is going to be matched with a faster burning powder while the rifle will require a slower powder, in your case, Lil'Gun is in the middle of the chart, ideal for the rifle. At the end of the month I will actually purchase a 357 lever, have always wanted one and now is the time. I've decided that 4227 will be used to stock this weapon while I stick with Titegroup for the pistol. Obviously the choice is yours but I think you may not gain the performance you are looking for in the revolver that you will get in the rifle. Good luck. Enjoy. Be safe. __________________ non ministrari sed ministrare

March 16, 2015, 11:05 AM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	There are OTHER reasons besides safety why a given powder is not listed with a given bullet in a given section. One if them is simple efficiency. A powder that doesn't work "well enough" in a rifle often won't be listed. And "well enough" is in the eyes of the guys doing the testing. You can create a safe load for a .30-30 with Bullseye, for example. It won't match the performance most people are looking for, but it can be safe, and accurate. But you won't find it listed in most manuals. Simply because its not the best powder for that job, and there are practical limits on what you test, and write up in your manuals. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 15, 2015, 05:38 PM	#1
MadDawg Member Join Date: December 27, 2014 Posts: 51	.357 Magnum pistol vs rifle I have some 158 grain jacketed hollowpoints. Looking at a couple of different places for recipes; hodgdonreloading and the Lee book (2nd ed ). in both, it seems that under rifle, there is no recipe for Lil'Gun, but there is for HS6. Under pistol for both, there is recipes for both Lil'Gun and HS-6. I have both rifles and pistols in .357; does what I describe above mean that I should not shoot rounds loaded with Lil'gun out of the rifle??? Or should I have gotten some H110 instead ? Is there any harm in shooting ammo loaded with lil'gun out of a rifle ? 18 and 20 inch barrels ? Thanks.

March 15, 2015, 06:13 PM	#3
mmb713 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 421	If you look at the load data for 357 Magnum rifle and pistol in Hodgdon's manual you will find that the recipes are identical. Why they didn't include Lil Gun in the rifle section is a question for Hodgdon. There is no reason Lil Gun loads would not be safe in a rifle. Load it up and shoot it.

March 15, 2015, 07:01 PM	#5
MadDawg Member Join Date: December 27, 2014 Posts: 51	Thanks, guys... It was kind of puzzling; I really didn't want to break into the 8 pound bottle of HS6.... H110, I think I saw on the shelves at the LGS. Lil'Gun, I have three 1 pound bottles of...

March 15, 2015, 10:37 PM	#8
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	If you have a warm load for your handgun it maybe to hot for you rifle, cylinder gap of a revolver relieves pressure. I load for both but my handgun loads are downloaded for rifle.

March 16, 2015, 04:45 AM	#9
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	A warm load will not be too hot for a rifle, despite the slight added pressure. I don't know of any 357 mag RIFLE that cannot handle higher pressures than a revolver. Cylinder gap or not, safe in a revolver, it'll be safe in your rifle. The velocity can be much higher in the rifle, so if you see any loads that are downloaded for a rifle rather than a revolver, it will only be because the particular bullet your loading for may only be rated up to a certain speed, like 1800. Like you may notice recommended loadings for 110gr gold dots may be less in the rifle only for optimal speed for the bullet itself, not because of overpressure concwrns __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 16, 2015, 02:45 PM	#12
MarkDozier Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2010 Posts: 363	I have just worked loads for my 357 rifle. Hornady XTP 158 grain with 14 grains of 296. Load data was acceptable for both. I nice round in the rifle. And in the pistol it is so fun to shoot that it is like good tater chips. You can shoot just one.

March 16, 2015, 02:56 PM	#13
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	While most all safe loads are interchangeable between rifles and handguns, not all will be accurate in both, so it's still a good idea to experiment with loads for each individual gun if you want the full potential __________________ One shot, one kill

March 16, 2015, 05:26 PM	#14
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I converted 1965 Colt Police positive from 38 special to 357 mag. The max load for 158 gr 357 mag is 18 gr LIL'GUN. I was shooting 26 gr. It kicked, it was loud, and that powder is hard to fit. The chamber walls are 0.065" thick. I have a 38 Special rifle, a 1905 Rolling block No 5. The max load for 357 mag 158 gr is 6.5 gr Bullseye. I have worked up to 13 gr when a small magnum primer will pierce. The chamber wall is 0.480" thick. In 1991 John Bercovitz explained why chamber wall thickness drives the threshold of difficult extraction, which drives changes in the SAAMI registered max average pressure for 357 mag: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...0/cBSU4bR2jz8J I can run much higher pressures in most other guns than revolvers. The threshold of difficult extraction [sticky cases] is very low when one finger tip extracts 6 cases. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?