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August 15, 2015, 09:05 PM | #26 |
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The majority opinion is it's not a good idea. It appears that one loading manual gives some special situation loads for H110 in 44 Special. But I have to ask why? You have a 44 Magnum gun according to post #16. iI you don't have 44 Magnum brass, Graf and Sons have it for less than $25/100. Buying brass is not a waste if you are truely wanting to be a handloader.
Why are you trying to make something out of the 44 Special it is not? Why not just buy some 44 Magnum brass, and use Hodgedon's recomended loads to create a 1700-1800 fps Magnum load with the right cases. If you want something milder to practice, and plink with, get some cast 44 bullets, and a can of Trail Boss for your 44 Special brass
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August 15, 2015, 09:32 PM | #27 |
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H110 operates safely at a pressure level significantly above the safe level for 44 SP. Either use 44 mag brass and load for that cartridge or get a powder more suitable to 44 SP loads.
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August 15, 2015, 09:49 PM | #28 |
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Rule No. 1 of Reloading :
Never, ever, ever use load data that is not from a published source. Go out and get a manual and check out your powder there. The risk of serious injury to yourself and bystanders is too great to give credence to any data source except one that is published by reputable experts. Stuff bandied about on the net is not published, if you ask me, unless it's on a bullet or powder maker's website. Joe Sixguns' blog and Bubba the Guy At Work are not reliable. I'll drink a beer with both of them all day, but anything they have to say about legal advice, politics, or reloading, is not gospel. I reload for the .44 Special, and guarantee that advice that includes the words 'you really have to fill the case and use a light bullet', is less than sound. Perhaps it's generically true, but reloading is about specific powders and bullets, not blanket statements. Match your bullet with a published load for your powder and then, and only then, do you have reliable reloading advice. My neighbor is a reloader, too. We exchange advice all the time. It's accomplished by passing one or more of our manuals across the fence for a day or two. Neither of us will ever use a verbal load recommendation without seeing it in print. |
August 15, 2015, 09:49 PM | #29 | |
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Quote:
Now the SAAMI standard is a good idea, so manufacturers can design guns around a cartridge's SAAMI pressure range. There are exceptions but not many... Take the .45 Colt that has two standards (SAAMI and Ruger Only Loads). As said above, If it was me, I'd just stick with .44Mag cartridges for .44Mag loads, and .44Special cartridges for .44Special loads. Keep it Simple ... But when it is all said and done, it is your choice. Not ours .
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August 16, 2015, 08:42 AM | #30 | |
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Quote:
Without experience in knowing what to look for in over pressure, he should start with mild loads and avoid max loads until he gains more knowledge.
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August 16, 2015, 11:08 AM | #31 |
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A new guy should play it safe and use published loads. H110 in known to be less flexible than a lot of other powders.
I wonder what Quickload would predict. A 44 mag case is about .125" longer than a 44 sp case. A 240 gr xtp takes up more room in the case than a 200 gr xtp, so the available case volume of the 240 in the mag case would be just about the same as the 200 in the special case. A 200 gr xtp weighs less. For a given powder charge, pressures should be lower in the 200/sp cartridge than in the 240/mag. |
August 16, 2015, 12:20 PM | #32 |
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I've loaded H110 in my 44 Special using data straight out of Hodgdon #25 copyright 1986. They published H110 loads from 185 thru 265 grains. One would think published data from people who make the stuff can be trusted, but one would be wrong.
Slow powders need to "get going to get going", and chance of squibs is very real. If you insist on finding and using the old data do not reduce, use MAGNUM primers, your best crimp, and most importantly do not practice rapid fire at the range. My near miss was during rapid fire when #3 squibbed and I was a reflex away from squeezing off #4.
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August 16, 2015, 03:58 PM | #33 |
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thank you, keybear, sw282, buckhorn_cortez, buzz cook, nick c s, ozzieman, rclark, orionengnr, WVMountaineer, shooter1911, hartcreek, SHR970, Highvalleyranch, and tom Matiska for your information, it is all helpful, and i am putting it to use, i have bought a lyman 49th edition reloading manual that is full of all the information i could need (as far as i know). i think ill buy another powder, more suited to reloading 44 special brass to shoot out of my 44 mag. and ill save the H110 for reloading 44 mag brass with heavier bullets, for my bear defense loads. Again thank you to everyone listed above, for being polite and welcoming, ill start off with min loads listed on the manual, I'm liking what i hear about titegroup and unique. They seem to be fairly versatile in charge and bullet weight, what are your thoughts? ill primarily be using them as plinking/target practice rounds.
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August 16, 2015, 04:29 PM | #34 |
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My God, I guess if they can't find it with Google, it never happened.
In fact, Brian Pearce has published .44Spl data with H110 for the new Rugers and you can find it in Handloader magazine. Not unanimous at all. Some are just better informed than others. |
August 16, 2015, 04:41 PM | #35 | |
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Quote:
--- As for H-110 loads, yes Brian Pearce did publish some .44Special loads with it... But they are not SAAMI loads as in the following case he tested with a Freedom Arms revolver. 25K psi loads Tier 3. http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...%20Special.pdf Also about the Ruger .44Special Flattop, http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...%20Special.pdf But for a beginner reloader, I would stay away from H110/296 for the .44Special. That is my opinion and stick'n to it . Oh, and if you like the .44Special (one of 'my' favorites) here a list of articles collected over the years: http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/
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A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king. Last edited by rclark; August 16, 2015 at 04:54 PM. |
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August 16, 2015, 05:55 PM | #36 |
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I stayed away from Unique for years because I always thought it was so dirty
In the last two or three years I have used a lot of it . I loaded all my lead for the 44 Mag with W231 . The powder shortage got me using Unique and that was a good thing . As a reloader the manual is the Bible . |
August 16, 2015, 07:48 PM | #37 | |
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August 17, 2015, 12:12 PM | #38 |
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well i think next time i head into town ill pick up some unique, or send away for it. thanks everyone, ill let you know my results when i finally get them loaded
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August 17, 2015, 10:11 PM | #39 |
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Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice
Kalen, I am glad you stuck around. This forum is one of the better ones and a few impatient/intolerant folks can be found anywhere. Forgive them. They are more concerned with safety (yours) than decorum.
Unique is an EXCELLENT powder for light to medium loads. I have used it for 35 years. It is a little sooty, but cleanup is part of the fun, right? My best girl dabs on a little Hoppe's #9 when she is feeling frisky. (kidding) Every powder has its niche. The niche for H110 and Winchester 296 (the same powder) is maximum powder loads. It needs the highest pressure to reach the proper burning pressure and temperature for predictable, stable burning. A light bullet does not provide enough resistance for that. A light crimp does not, either. A smallish case does not allow for a good, long burn time (though if you match case volume, bullet weight and charge weight you could do it in a 44 Special case, I'll wager). However, I will not wager my own money or my own body parts or gun. A 44 Special case fired out of a 44 Magnum gun if loaded with a safe combination of H110 and bullet can be safe because the gun can contain the pressure. But if that cartridge is loaded into a 44 Special gun there will probably be more pressure than the gun can stand. And a case loaded with H110 to 44 Special pressure levels cannot be depended on to avoid erratic behavior (incomplete burn, stuck bullets, pressure spikes and such other dangers). Tom Matiska is right. Slow powders need to "get going" to burn right. In H110's case, this is especially true. I mentioned finding a safe load for firing a 44 Special case in a 44 Magnum gun as an example. To find such a load, you would need to equip a ballistics lab and run the experiments (or find a lab that did and was willing to share the data with you). Neither is worth the trouble, since you have a 44 Magnum gun and 44 Magnum cases are readily available (even if more expensive in your locale). Older manuals with 44 Special recipes were using the powder that was available AT THE TIME OF PUBLICATION. And using ballistics equipment available at the time, too. Powders have changed a little bit and ballistics science and equipment have become more sophisticated, too. By all means, if you have 20 year old powder, check a 20 year old manual. But also check a current manual as well. Safety always, safety all ways. Frankly, I nave never owned a single piece of 44 Special brass, though most of my shooting is 44 Special power levels. And when I find any 38 Special brass, I give them to my friend who reloads 38 and .357. Most of my .357 guns have never even SEEN a 38 Special case, and none since 1976. Keeping only one chambering of brass keeps my supply logistics simpler. I never worry about separating 38s from 357s or 44 Special fron 44 Mags. The respondent who suggested 44 magnum brass (sorry, I cannot find your name right now as I type this) is spot-on. I would go so far as to trade my 44 Special brass for 44 Mag, or powder or primers. But that's just me. Others find it more convenient to know that Special cases have special power levels and Mags have Mag levels. Me, I have to read the labels I put in the boxes to know if my loaded Mag brass has Special energy levels or Magnum energy levels. So, do what you prefer. Lost Sheep Last edited by Lost Sheep; August 17, 2015 at 11:38 PM. |
August 18, 2015, 09:58 AM | #40 |
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Kalen - With regard to your original question; under certain circumstances you could use H 110 in 44 special.
The two most notable differences between 44 special and 44 magnum is 1. maximum operating pressures 2. the strength of the weapons that each is intended to be used in 3. the length of the cases. The 44 special normally operates at a lower pressure designated as safe for older guns and small guns with light frames and thinner cylinder walls. The 44 magnum operates at higher pressures and is chambered in modern, larger framed, strong guns that can handle the increased strain. 44 magnum brass is roughly 1/8 inch longer than its special counterpart to prevent that ammunition from chambering in a weapon unsuited to containing its potential max pressure. Now, here's the rub; despite the difference in case length, both cartridges have almost identical overall loaded lengths giving them effectively the same internal case capacity. What you will find however, is that bullets of the 44 caliber variety almost always come with the cannelure or seat groove placed for appropriate oals in the 44 magnum only. This means of course, that these bullets seated to that cannelure in a 44 special results in a shorter oal cartridge with reduced space in the case under the bullet. Therefore you cannot put 44 magnum level powder charges in a special case UNLESS you use a bullet that gives the appropriate (longer) length and then ONLY use that ammunition in a weapon KNOWN to be of adequate strength. |
August 18, 2015, 06:04 PM | #41 |
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Kalen, I'll keep it simple. I only use Skeeter Skelton's pet load in my .44 Spl. which is 7.5 gr. of Unique under the Lyman #420241 cast lead bullet. Very accurate and brings out the best in an S&W 624 that I own. I shoot that same bullet in my .44 mag. with 20 gr. of A2400. Good enough. I'd have to check this out but IIRC I used 24.0 gr. of W296 which is the same as H110 with that bullet. I did not like the sharp muzzle blast and big ball of fire that emanated from the muzzle. IIRC, that was 1.0 full grain below maximum in one of my manuals. Recoil was also quite stout.
Skeeter's load in a Super Blackhawk will be reasonably mild and comfortable to shoot. I haven't tried it in an NIB Colt single action in .44 Spl. yet as I'm thinking of selling it and if it was to be shot, would probably knock a big chunk off the value. One thing that I did not see mentioned is use a strong light to check powder levels if you're going to use powders like Bullseye or Unique, Slipping a double charge into one of the cases will definitely get your attention if you miss it. Could even cause your gun to become unglued. Paul B.
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August 19, 2015, 07:08 AM | #42 |
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"so just how many grains can i cram into that special case? "
Depending on the gun, enough to damage the gun and possibly you, too. You don't "cram" powder into a case. That infers carelessness and extreme lack of attention to details, and in reloading ammunition, that will come back to haunt you, possibly forever. The dip brother of a kid I went to school with was like that -- 14 years old and knew everything about everything, and God forbid you try to tell him anything different than what he had decided on. He thought he'd load up some special dove loads for his shotgun... Loading manual? That's crap! I don't need that. I'll just slop some powder in the case, top it off with shot, and the doves will fall out of the sky! When the barrel blew out because of the serious overpressure load, a chunk of it took out a lot of muscle in his left forearm, leaving that arm permanently crippled.
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August 19, 2015, 07:29 AM | #43 |
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A little late to the party, maybe, but will add a couple comments.
1. Not a good idea to load .44spl to .44mag levels even if you plan to shoot them from a .44mag gun. If someone else should find that ammo and attempt to shoot it from a .44spl gun, it's a problem. Or, some years from now, you forget and do it because you found an old box of .44spl that fell down behind the cabinet. You could get "hit by the proverbial bus" tomorrow and your wife gives all you stuff away to your best friend. And he makes that mistake. You just never know. 2. Red Dot is a great powder for plinking with 200g bullets in .44spl or .44mag cases. I load 5.6g in .44mag cases. |
August 19, 2015, 07:56 AM | #44 |
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The simple explanation is that 110 is different than other powders and can be dangerous if the case is insufficiently filled. When you change to smaller cases the 44 mag charges are no longer valid.
It is possible to load 110 in 44 SPL cases that would be perfectly safe to fire in your 44 magnum, but would probably not be safe to fire in a 44 SPL. For this reason there is very little published data for such a load. Even old sources that once published such data have long since dropped it. What this means is that it takes educated guesswork based on lots of 110 experience to come up with safe loads which is a place that a beginner should NEVER tread. Beginners should stick with recipes and componets straight out of the book until you gain more expereince. |
August 19, 2015, 10:58 AM | #45 | |
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Good advice after gaining experience also. People who think they know better than the guy who wrote the book usually don't.
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August 19, 2015, 11:49 AM | #46 |
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KALEN, I don't mean to "pile on" here, but I avoid using H110/W296 in ANYTHING except .30 Carbine(for which it was originally developed).
There are too many other powders (Alliant 2400, AA#9, IMR-4227) that will do much the same thing, and are far more forgiving when not loaded to the ragged edge of maximum. I think AA#5, Unique, Herco (often on shelves when Unique is not), or even W231/HP38 would work admirably in .44 Spl. loads, even if you want to load them toward the magnum end of the spectrum (Unique & Herco are especially well suited here). I don't own a .44 Special, but I've loaded at least 1000 rounds for friends. You can go from "mild" to "wild" using Unique and Herco. I've probably burned 50 lbs of Unique over the years in cartridges from .32 ACP to .44 Mag, and it's worked well in everything in which I've tried it. Sorry about the curmudgeonly manner in which your original inquiry was greeted. I suspect that the emphatic answers were largely attributable to the answering parties' automatically knowing what kind of a "ballistic SPIT-storm" you'd be inviting by light-loading H110. It may not seem like it, but their "unvarnished" answers were probably formed, at least in part, by a genuine and urgent motivation to deter you from going down a bad pathway. Since you'll be looking for a medium-burning pistol powder, you could do US a favor by trying one of the newer ones, with which WE might not have much experience, like Alliant BE-86 or Hodgdon CFE pistol. I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to get into a "rut" when using powders, and could probably have overlooked some very fine products in the process.
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August 19, 2015, 02:43 PM | #47 | ||
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True you can't reduce loads below minimum, nor should you with ANY powder, so its only good for ull magnum loads, but for that it is one of the best. 110 has a narrow range of published loads, but I would argue that it is about the easiest and most forgiving powder to load with if you simply stick to the published loads. Most published loads fill the case to where the bullet seats, so you can easily spot a disaster with your eyeballs. You can't double charge it. You would be hard pressed to stuff enough of it into a case to cause a disaster. Because of the heavy charges, your margin of error is much greater. Since the OP already HAS some 110, it would be a great choice when he's ready to do full power 44 magnum loads. |
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August 19, 2015, 04:16 PM | #48 |
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WW 296 is my first choice for top-end .357 and .41 Magnum hand loads.
Love the stuff, almost as much as I love WW 231.
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August 19, 2015, 05:57 PM | #49 |
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Kalen:
Do NOT try to use H110 (which is the same as W296) in the 44Special - No matter if you're shooting a 44Mag Blackhawk gun. - No matter if that powder works in the (slightly) larger 44Mag case. - No matter if you can physically fit XX grains of H110 in the 44Special case NO. Go get a nice mid-range powder like Unique or TiteGroup and then follow the mid-power loads in the manual. Please do not ignore this counsel, or that of every poster prior to this. |
August 19, 2015, 07:08 PM | #50 |
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You ummm, are the ruling law on H110/296 I take it? . Seems to me we covered it above, and also found it can be used in the .44Special under certain circumstances and has been used in the past wit the .44 Special. It just may not be your normal powder for a beginner or regular .44 Special loads.... Just saying . Oh, and some of us do load even the Keith load in .44Special too..... It's each to their own with an informed decision. No need to 'lay down the law' so to speak!
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A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king. |
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