Colt's Newest Toy

[Hardcase]

I'm a fan of "if The Duke did it, then it must be right". The War Wagon was one of my favorite movies when I was a kid So, here's Colt's newest Western gun. In .45-70, naturally!

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/Spec...atlingGun.aspx

I'm sure that it fits into the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category.

[Jim Watson]

Hmm.
I think that may have been what they were shooting on Top Gun.
I wondered about the liklihood of them finding two originals of the same exact model. Even though they did have two Hotchkiss cannons out of the same US Army contract.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Wow!

In a way it surprises me that Colt is making them again.

However, I've seen them on Top Gun and in more than a few Youtube videos. Perhaps the Top Gun thing was sort of a marketing test to gauge demand.

You can be sure they wouldn't be making them if they didn't think they could sell them.

I want one.

[JWT]

Just what I need to control the packrats in my yard.

[Andy Griffith]

I believe these are US Armament's guns made under Colt licensing, sold exclusively through Midwest Gun Exchange and Florida Gun Exchange.

It's nice, but the price is too high- $37K+ for the unlicensed one, much more for the licensed Hartford-Horsey-logo one.

A decent, reproduction model 1862 percussion Gatling gun from Battery Gun Company with tripod will start around $5500- and includes a tripod, but only 20 reloadable chambers. Chambers are about $600 per hundred, but no extra help for cleaning afterward is included.

I know there is a huge difference between the 1877 and the 1862 guns...but why doesn't someone come out with a $3K Gatling that still looks good? I'm more or less surprised the Italians haven't yet.

[Bill Akins]

Andy Griffith wrote:
but why doesn't someone come out with a $3K Gatling that still looks good?

I always liked the 1879 Gardner gun better than the Gatling. Less parts, much lighter, about the same rate of crank fire, Gardner was the first water cooled gun in history and the water cooled version used two barrels (hence one reason it was lighter than the more numerous barrel Gatling). Some Gardner's had one barrel and there were also versions with five barrels.

Some pics of the Gardner gun.....

Twin barrel water cooled 1879 Gardner reproduction. (Maxim studied and then err, "borrowed" the design of the Gardner and made it operate using recoil instead of manual cranking, so the Maxim is actually really a recoil operated Gardner).


Air cooled twin barrel Gardner gun being carried by two Brits. Try carrying a Gatling like that!



But even the two barrel, water cooled, Gardner gun reproductions of today are in the same high price category as the Gatling reproductions.
Soooo.....something like this is needed.....

For years now I've been wanting to mount two shotguns, side by side in a wide fake receiver, upside down and hopper fed, (like this hopper fed Civil war Union Agar here).....


.....with a BMF activator crankfire trigger activator in each trigger guard where both BMF activators are joined together so you have the ability to turn one crank handle and fire both shotgun barrels simultaneously or sequentially according to how you position the cam in each trigger activator. It could look a bit like this WW2 air corps training shotgun, only with a better looking fake receiver housing the real shotgun receivers and using twin, inverted, hopper fed, shotguns.......


.....only with two shotguns and upside down using a hopper fed ammunition feeding device like the Union Agar gun. If using say a Remington 11 or Browning auto 5 recoil operated shotgun, you could even water cool the barrels. Certainly would crank out an unbelievable amount of shot shell pellets, a virtual rain of lead and be cheaper than the 3K mark you mentioned to build Andy. You could literally mow with it.

I have some experience with building things like that.

My third prototype Ruger 10/22, that's convertible in seconds from a truly water cooled to air cooled, crankfired gun with 50 rd MWG teardrop mag. (Can't wait until that GSG 110 rd drum mag for the 10/22 gets imported around Christmas).


I used the 10/22 because it is inexpensive, easy to find parts everywhere, and fires inexpensive .22LR ammo. But it could almost as easily be done using twin inverted shotguns, hopper fed. Much cheaper than a Gatling or a Gardner. And being shotguns, actually more lead per shot downrange.

I know about those three Saiga shotguns that Red Jacket made to rotate on their t.v. show. A friend of mine just left from working at Red Jacket. But not only is it unnecessary and overly complicated to make the Saiga's rotate, they were also only using 10 rd mags. So they could only fire a total of 30 rds before reloading. Hence the need to hopper feed for more shotshells.



.

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Bill my friend, you are truly a unique character, you certainly look at the world in a different way.

That rotating shotgun looked like something that they did for TV, I'm sure there's a lot of that going on. Even though the show is silly from time to time, it's stiff fun to watch.
Did your friend tell you any interesting stories from Redjacket?
Thanks, OJW

[maillemaker]

I've always wanted to make an 1862 Gatling. I like the idea of reloadable black-powder chambers in .58 caliber.

I'd love to find a set of plans for one so I could model it in CAD.

Steve

[Rifleman1776]

Interesting post. The Colt offering certainly is heavy on the "WOW!" factor.

[Bill Akins]

OutlawJoseyWales wrote:
Did your friend tell you any interesting stories from Redjacket?

Yes he did. But unfortunately were chiefly his reasons for quitting and leaving which wouldn't be prudent for me to discuss here.


.

[Jim Watson]

I think it is just sad that your "representative" government doesn't trust you with real weapons and you are reduced to lookalike toys made out of shotguns and plinkers.

[Andy Griffith]

Jim, A brand-new cartridge firing Gatling that is hand cranked can be bought with nothing more than filling out a normal 4473- it is not considered a machine gun. Pre-86 machineguns are just expensive, but they're out there. Post samples are cheaper, but far more hoops to go through- more than most people want to or have the money to do.

The problem is the cost.

[Bill Akins]

Jim Watson wrote:
I think it is just sad that your "representative" government doesn't trust you with real weapons and you are reduced to lookalike toys made out of shotguns and plinkers.

I respect your opinion Jim, but I wouldn't exactly call these weapons mentioned as "reducing" us to toys since they are already real weapons in their own right before being made to crank fire. When I'm crank firing a stream of .22's out of mine, I sure wouldn't want to be standing in front of it. And twin crankfire shotguns would be possibly more devastating and definitely throw more lead than a .30 cal military machine gun. With my friend that used to work at Red Jacket assisting me, I turned a Saiga 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun upside down, put a BMF activator, trigger activator on it, took the spring, follower and floorplate out of the mag to make more space for shells and loaded up the mag to work as a hopper, and with both he and I firmly holding it, I rapidly crankfired it as an experiment. It worked flawlessly. I can definitely tell you....it wasn't a toy.


(I snipped out some unnecessary political text that I wrote that really wasn't germain to this thread.)


.

[Jim Watson]

There are an awful lot of things I would not want to "stand in front of" that would not be my choice to stand behind. Unless you can say that you would prefer a crank fired device to a real automatic, and can demonstrate a functional or tactical advantage to manual power; I will continue to dismiss them as imitations for a repressive jurisdiction. Excepting, of course, reproductions of historical designs as in the OP.

[Bill Akins]

Jim Watson wrote:
I will continue to dismiss them as imitations for a repressive jurisdiction.

No disagreement from me on that point Jim. I agree that a repressive congressional jurisdiction (The N.F.A. as well as the A.T.F.) has violated our 2nd amendment federally since 1934. However, since we still like to have fun shooting what goes rat-a-tat-tat, unless we can afford tens of thousands of dollars for pre '86 machine guns, crank fire activated guns are a viable alternative to be able to at least engage in rat-a-tat-tat. Have you ever fired a crank fired gun? You might be surprised how fast and accurate they can shoot, especially when tripod mounted. I can easily keep all my rounds on a pie plate at 50 yards. And ultimately what does it matter to our pleasure of shooting it if it is a crank fired weapon rather than a full auto?
One of the members here (Andy Griffith) posted wondering why no one had made a Gatling repro for under 3K. I was simply showing rapid fire crank firing guns that were much cheaper alternatives to the Gatling that would be under the 3K mark he mentioned.


.

[Jim Watson]

we still like to have fun shooting what goes rat-a-tat-tat,

I guess a lot of my opinion is based on having gotten the rat a tat tat out of my system a number of years ago. I know one guy who got a live legal Thompson in 1987 and only had to pay about twice the 1985 price; another who had a very interesting connection with a government agency; and a couple more who just coughed up the money. They were good about sharing (showing off) their stuff and I got all the fun I wanted for the cost of ammo, sometimes not even that. So it is now just a slightly mysterious novelty to read about or see on tv.

[Bill Akins]

I understand Jim. So you really aren't much interested in rapid firing weapons whether they be machine guns or manually cranked Gatlings or Gardners or any other manually hand cranked firing weapons since as you said, you got that "rat-a-tat-tat out of your system" long ago. So you really have very little interest in this thread other than as "just a slightly mysterious novelty to read about or see on tv" as you mentioned.


.

[Jim Watson]

Right, it's just light entertainment, less predictable than network TV but of no greater effect on my real interests or spending.

[Andy Griffith]

Ah...

It just boils down to personal taste.
I'd rather shoot a tuned 1860 with real blackpowder than a semi-auto centerfire any day of the week- that's just personal preference. It's just what you enjoy.

I'd enjoy a nice 1862 Gatling...but I'd rather enjoy the sixty, one-hundred dollar bills sitting in my pocket.

[g.willikers]

Anyone want to tackle how to make a four gun, .22 Gatling style, with drum magazines?
Using 10-22s, no doubt.
Two barrels over two barrels, in a square configuration.
That would be the one.

[Bill Akins]

G.willikers wrote:
Anyone want to tackle how to make a four gun, .22 Gatling style, with drum magazines?
Using 10-22s, no doubt.
Two barrels over two barrels, in a square configuration.
That would be the one.

I can tell you exactly how to do that G.Willikers. Not that much different from what I've already built.

See my single 10/22 with the fake receiver in my earlier picture post above? The one that is convertible from air to water cooled in a matter of seconds? Okay....just double the size of the fake aluminum channel for both height and width. So that two 10/22's can be side by side and two over the top of the bottom two. For a total of four 10/22's as your spec's required.

The upper and lower left hand 10/22's must have a shell deflector that will deflect their shells downward out the bottom of the fake receiver while the right side top and bottom 10/22's will just eject their shells out the right side of the gun as normal. There will also have to be a hinged top cover for accessing the bolts and clearing jams on the upper and lower left side guns.

You will have four BMF crank fire trigger activators installed into each of the four 10/22 trigger guards. The bottom and upper 10/22's trigger activators will be connected to the other trigger activator next to it via a connecting rod. A sprocket will be attached to the right upper BMF activator and be connected via a chain to a sprocket on the right lower BMF activator. So that as you turn the crank handle, it turns the sprocket on the right lower BMF activator whose sprocket has a chain that goes to the sprocket to the upper right BMF activator.

So what is happening as your turn one crank handle, is that the two lower BMF trigger activators are connected across from each other via a connecting rod connecting the two BMF activators so that as one turns so does the other. Then the sprocket on the right hand lower BMF activator is connected by a chain to the right upper BMF trigger activator's sprocket on the upper right gun. And that upper right gun's BMF activator is also connected via a rod to the upper left gun's BMF activator.

You can adjust the cams of the BMF trigger activators to fire all four guns at once, or two guns at once, or fire all four guns sequentially.

Mount the fake receiver on a camera tripod like I did my single crank fire 10/22 and you are good to go.

That's how you do it.

I could go into leak proof sealing the water jacket for water cooling the four barrels too but that's a secret I'm keeping to myself for the time being.

Here's a link that shows the BMF crank trigger activator for sale at Cabelas....
http://www.cabelas.com/10-22-accesso...ivator-1.shtml

The BMF crank trigger activator has a removable handle that can be removed and attached to the other side of the BMF activator for left hand use. So it's spindle is threaded and square shaped on both ends. Which makes it very easy to attach a rod connecting two BMF activators together in two guns side by side. Then just do the same thing with two more guns above the bottom two and connect via a chain the top and bottom sprockets you place on the top and bottom BMF activators' spindles. Then when you turn one crank handle, it will fire all four guns. You can adjust the cams of the BMF activators so that each gun fires separately, or two guns fire at the same time (top two together then bottom two together), or all four guns fire at the same time.

See this link for an ad where someone took two plastic MG42 stocks and put two Ruger 10/22's in them. Then they attached two BMF crank trigger activators into each trigger guard and connected them via a rod. They have it set up so that each gun fires separately but it could also be set up to fire both guns at the same time. Scroll down and look at picture number 3. See the rod that goes across from the two guns' trigger guards that connects the two BMF activators together by screwing into their threads on their spindles? By being connected like that, when one BMF activator turns, so does the other one. Firing both guns with one crank handle.

This link shows whole setup.
http://media.ak47.net/archive/topic....&f=93&t=363456

And here's just that one pic that shows the two BMF trigger activators joined together so they both fire when the one crank handle is turned.
See the rod connecting the two BMF activator spindles together coming from both trigger guards?


For a four gun setup, you just do the same thing but connect one top and one bottom BMF activator via a sprocket and chain so that one crank handle turns all four BMF trigger activators.
Then instead of having the four guns in separate stocks, instead you install all four Ruger receivers inside an aluminum channel fake receiver and use bushings to space the receivers above, and below from each other. Install a shell deflector on both left side guns so their empties deflect out a cutout in the middle bottom of the fake receiver and have a hinged top cover so you can access the left side top and bottom guns to cock the bolt and clear any jams. One thing to remember too, is that the top guns would have to be offset a bit from over the top of the bottom guns so the long hi cap mags would clear the bottom gun's receiver tops. Or....you could invert the top guns so their mags stuck upwards. That would actually be the best thing to do for stick mag clearance. Drum mags would require you to definitely invert the top guns and also to space/install all four guns wider apart in the one large fake receiver so that the drums would not contact each other. Not really a problem, just have to have a wider fake receiver.

Much cheaper than a manual Gatling gun and probably a higher cyclic rate of fire too since the BMF trigger activator has four cam lobes it will fire the gun four times per revolution. That means with four guns if you set the cams all the same, you would fire all four guns at the same time, which would be 16 shots per revolution of the crank handle. Two quick turns and you shot 32 rounds! You can turn that handle really fast. As fast as turning a crank pencil sharpener. That's a lot of firepower. And just wait until those GSG 110 rd drum mags come out around Christmas. I've been in touch with the importer and am going to get two of them as soon as they arrive. With four GSG 110 rd drum mags, that would be 440 rds of .22LR you could fire before reloading and 27.5 crank handle revolutions to crank out 440 rds before reloading was needed. That's some serious cyclic rate and firepower.

Your costs would be four Ruger 10/22's (under $200.00 or less each if you buy used), four BMF activators (about $22.00 each from Cabelas), a camera or transit tripod from a pawn shop (maybe $25.00 or cheaper?), Four GSG 110 rd Ruger 10/22 drum mags (will be around $100.00 each), and a wide and tall piece of aluminum channel (price? probably $5.00 or less from a scrap metal yard), a rod to connect two BMF activators together twice (price minimal), two sprockets and chain (price minimal) and your time and some tools for cutting out your aluminum channel and installing the four receivers in your one large aluminum fake receiver and mounting on your tripod. Compare those costs against the costs of a repro Gatling gun. Attractive huh? And you could really pretty it up too with brass work and all. Basically a four barrel version of what I've already built in a one barrel version.

Anyway, that's how you do it. How do you like it G.Willikers?



.

[g.willikers]

Wot he say??
Your description sounds like the idea is actually doable, Mr. Akins.
I'm gonna' have to read this a couple of dozen more times to get the jist of it, though.
Anything wrong with the Black Dog 50 rd drum mags?
They are available and cost only $60, from the mail order sites.
http://blackdogmachinellc.net/drum-10-22-50rd.aspx

[Bill Akins]

I haven't used nor have any experience with those 50rd black dog drum mags G.Willikers. But they cost almost as much as the drum mags that are going to come into the country made by GSG that hold 110 rds. The largest capacity so far of any Ruger 10/22 magazine is 50rds. And the GSG drum mags will hold twice that plus ten. American Tactical Imports are the importers in the U.S. for GSG (German Sports Guns). They currently have those 110 rd drums available for the GSG 522 .22LR rifle. But they will also have them available for the Ruger 10/22 around Christmas according to the importer I spoke with at American Tactical Imports.

So if I were you, I'd wait and get a GSG Ruger 10/22 110 rd drum rather than pay almost the same price for a black dog 50 rd one. Pretty much a no brainer to pay about the same price and get double plus ten the capacity.
The GSG drum having 110 rds will be the ONLY Ruger 10/22 mag currently that exceeds 50 rds. I've personally seen my friends GSG 522 rifle's 110 rd drum mag, and it is a well made quality piece. It will be the exact same drum mag only with its top made to fit the Ruger 10/22. The GSG 10/22 110 rd drums are already out in Germany but just haven't gotten to the U.S. yet.

Check out this link for the GSG 110 rd drum for the GSG 522 rifle. It will be the same drum except its top will be made to fit the Ruger 10/22 and will hopefully be in the country around Christmas according to the importer.
http://www.americantactical.us/1585/detail.html


Sorry if my last post was confusing. I'll try to type it again so hopefully it's easier to understand.

You have four Ruger 10/22 rifle receivers and barrels. You mount those four 10/22 rifle receivers inside a large fake receiver that is made from a piece of aluminum channel. You position those 10/22 receivers inside the fake aluminum receiver so that your drum mags will not obstruct each other. In other words you space those 10/22 receivers so that when the drum mags are inserted in them, the drum mags do not hit against each other. But you turn your top two 10/22 receivers upside down so their drum mags project upward so there is no problem with those drums being obstructed by the receivers of your two lower 10/22's whose drum mags stick downward. The drum mags will look kind of like two Micky Mouse ears sticking upward side by side and another set of Micky Mouse ears sticking downward side by side.

Your bottom two 10/22 receivers are mounted side by side as are your top two 10/22 receivers. So that the triggers are directly across from each other so that you can connect the BMF trigger activators together using a rod so that when you turn the crank on one of the BMF activators, the rod going across to the other BMF activator will turn that one too.

So now you have your four 10/22's receivers mounted and spaced within your fake aluminum channel receiver, so that the bottom two drum mags and the top two drum mags do not hit against each other.

And the top two 10/22's have their triggers directly side by side and opposite of each other so you can connect their BMF trigger activators together via a rod. Same for the bottom two 10/22's. Each gun side by side to the other gun has their BMF trigger activators connected to each other via a rod.

Now you put a gear tooth sprocket on the bottom right 10/22's BMF trigger activator spindle and you do the same thing on the top right 10/22's BMF trigger activator spindle. Then you install a chain so that the bottom right 10/22's sprocket will cause the chain to turn the sprocket on the upper right 10/22's BMF trigger activator.

So what you have is the two top gun's BMF trigger activators that are side by side, are already connected via a rod to each other. Same for the two lower guns. So the top two guns trigger activators are connected to each other via a rod, and the bottom two guns are connected to each other via a rod.

But now you want to connect all four of them together. So you install a gear tooth sprocket on the bottom right gun's BMF activator spindle and also install a gear tooth sprocket on the upper right guns BMF activator spindle. The chain going upward from the bottom right gun to the upper right gun on those two geared sprockets will now cause all four BMF trigger activators to rotate their cams and fire all four triggers.

You can position the cams so either one gun only fires at a time, or two guns side by side fire at the same time, or all four guns fire at the same time. All depending on how you position the cams of the BMF activator when you install the connecting rod that connects two BMF activators to each other across two guns side by side.

Look at this picture carefully again. Do you see that silvery white skinny rod coming from the trigger guard area of each gun going across to the other gun's trigger guard? The rod you see that goes across the black mount on the tripod? See it?

Well, the spindle on the BMF trigger activator is threaded on both sides so you can put the crank handle on either side you want. The BMF trigger activator having its spindle threaded on both sides, allows one end of that skinny rod in the pic to be screwed into the left side of the right guns BMF activator's threaded spindle and the other end of the rod is screwed into the right side of the other BMF activator's threaded spindle on the gun on the left side. So that skinny rod bridges across and connects the two BMF activators side by side together. Do you see and understand that?



So now you see how one crank handle can turn both of the BMF trigger activators on both guns. Because both side by side guns' BMF trigger activators are connected together by a rod. Understand?

Well, all you are doing is setting that system up twice using four guns (although the top two guns are inverted). And then you are connecting the two....two gun systems' BMF trigger activators together via a geared tooth sprocket and chain. In other words the geared tooth sprocket and chain just connects the already connected bottom two guns' BMF trigger activators to the already connected top two guns BMF trigger activators.

Did I type it so you could understand it better this time?


.

[g.willikers]

Yup, you done a fine job explaining it all.
Now all that's required is the money and motivation.
It could easily turn into a fifteen hundred dollar project.
Right now it's just a pipe dream.

[Bill Akins]

g.willikers wrote:
Yup, you done a fine job explaining it all.
Now all that's required is the money and motivation.
It could easily turn into a fifteen hundred dollar project.

Possibly. But even if it did, compare that to the cost of a reproduction Gatling. But I don't think it would cost $1500.00
Your largest expense would be the four Ruger 10/22's and four GSG 110 rd drum mags.

New a Ruger 10/22 will go for around $250.00
You can pick them up used from $125.00 to $175.00

Let's say you bought four used 10/22's at $150.00 each. You don't care what they look like as long as they operate correctly. Because you aren't going to see the 10/22 receivers anyway because they will be mounted inside your aluminum fake receiver and you aren't going to use the wooden stocks and can sell those on Gunbroker or E bay to recoup a little of your expenses.

Okay, now you have $600.00 invested in the four 10/22's and $400.00 in the four GSG 110 rd mag drums. That's $1000.00 which is most of your expense.

A cheap camera or transit tripod from a pawn shop won't cost much. Maybe $25.00 or even less. The cost for the aluminum channel you are going to use for your central fake receiver will only be a couple of dollars. Even less for the two double end threaded rods to connect the BMF activators. The rest is only nuts and bolts and some bushings a couple of gear toothed sprockets and a chain. You can cut out your fake aluminum receiver using a hacksaw drill and files. A hand mill and metal cutting band saw would make the job go much faster if you have one or a friend of yours has one. My mill comes in real handy for projects like this. But you can do it without a mill, just takes more time. You will need a tap and die set for making threads on the rods and fake aluminum receiver.

That's pretty much it. I can help you with the understanding and what to do, but the motivation part is something I can't help ya with.


.