Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap?

Wyn · December 7, 2011, 09:13 AM

Just wondering if anyone carries a blackjack or a sap? I have one and wonder if I should be carrying it or leaving it in the car in case i need it? Just wondering. Thanks for reading.

TexasJustice7 · December 7, 2011, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap?

A concealed weapons permit in Texas does not make it legal to carry a blackjack or sap. If caught with one it would be a problem. I just stick to my guns myself.

Rifleman1776 · December 7, 2011, 09:26 AM

I carry one in my truck. I turned it myself from Osage Orange.
Even though, at age 73, I don't need a cane I have made myself a couple. One has a 1" hickory shaft and an antique brass horse hame tip. The tip is quite heavy and would dent a bowling ball. I figure a 70+ year old man using a cane would not be questioned. Actually, I'm pretty healthy and agile. Someone mess with me or family they will get a rude awakening just before I put them to sleep.

rantingredneck · December 7, 2011, 09:29 AM

Illegal here.........

twobit · December 7, 2011, 09:31 AM

It is also illegal in Texas to have one in your car. As mentioned, the Texas Concealed Handgun license only applies to a HANDGUN, not a baton, sap, club, illegal knife, sword,..... check the Texas Penal code chapter 46 for weapons regulations.
If you are in another state, I don't have a clue as to what is legal there

C0untZer0 · December 7, 2011, 10:02 AM

Illegal in Illinois.

It is a UUW, and if convicted it will cost you your FOID (no longer able to rent a range, purchase ammunition, or purchase firearms in Illinois).

9ballbilly · December 7, 2011, 10:21 AM

Illegal here in NY.

k511 · December 7, 2011, 10:51 AM

god i love Oregon..... i keep the blackjack in my truck, and the wife has an asp in her car.....along with the revolvers of course..

Lee McNelly · December 7, 2011, 11:13 AM

You might be in need of a good cane or walking stick

SINCE I CANT UPLOAD TO THIS SYSTEM TRY COLD STEEL.COM FOR CANES AND WALKING STICKS A NICE IRISH ONE WOULD BE IN ORDER EVERY GOOD AMERICAN GENT NEEDS ONE

brickeyee · December 7, 2011, 11:50 AM

Illegal in Virginia.

All a permit covers is a concealed handgun.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

Quote:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

sgms · December 7, 2011, 11:56 AM

Stick with a cane, they are legal everywhere. I carry a cane made to support up to 500 lbs. that has a solid brass ball as a handle. It is heavier than a standard cane(as expected) and is a standoff weapon that most punks do not know to deal with. It will out reach a knife, break bones, even kill if used forcefully enough. It will also allow you to clear enough space to draw your gun or in arms reach fights keep your attacker from grabbing your gun. It is important to learn some stick fighting or police riot baton use to be effective.

C0untZer0 · December 7, 2011, 12:14 PM

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 24 heading)
ARTICLE 24. DEADLY WEAPONS

(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or .....

a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.

A person convicted of a violation of subsection 24‑1(a)(1) through (5), subsection 24‑1(a)(10), subsection 24‑1(a)(11), or subsection 24‑1(a)(13) commits a Class A misdemeanor.

I don't think it's the misdemeanor that's the problem per se but because it is a weapons related charge - you lose your FOID.

I also think it disqualifies you from some non-res CCW permits. I recall seeing a question on some of the forms asking if you'd ever been convicted of a weapons charge -maybe its the PA aplication (can't remember).

.

aarondhgraham · December 7, 2011, 12:16 PM

Way back in time,,,
When dinosaurs ruled the earth,,,
I was an up and coming karate student.

Enter the Dragon had just came out,,,
We were all begging Mr. Chan to teach us to use "chucks".

His response was, "Why learn a weapon you can't carry?"

"Bummer" we all thought.

Instead he taught us lots of great techniques,,,
Using a simple walking stick/cane.

Interestingly enough when I left Korea and came back stateside,,,
I found what he had taught us was so very similar to LAPD baton techniques.

So if you can get used to carrying a walking stick,,,
They are a very capable weapon with very little training,,,
Besides, they be dashing and you too can stroll like Bat Masterson.

Aarond

C0untZer0 · December 7, 2011, 12:20 PM

I wouldn't want to have a blackjack in my hand when the BG pulls a gun.

Wyn · December 7, 2011, 01:54 PM

I had a friend who used to drive a cab in New York City in the 50's and 60's. He used to take alot of fares to 125th St. and the Harlem area. One of the favorite places to go was Minton's Jazz Club. He used to carry a blackjack to protect against drunks and unrulys. He said one time a fare got in his cab and demanded the money from the night. He wallopped him with the blackjack and he went stumbling out of the cab and took off. He was very pleased with its results. I wonder why with so many states banning them why they still make them. Blackjacks and saps are easily found for purchase.

secret_agent_man · December 7, 2011, 01:55 PM

All manner of common hand held weapons such as knives, saps and jacks, clubs, etc. are legal under the Second Amendment and the body of natural law which predates it.

But mountains will have to be moved before the above is stare decisis.

Patriot86 · December 7, 2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

sand‑bag

I will make sure to never carry a sand bag in Illinois, I guess I will just cart them around insted.

C0untZer0 · December 7, 2011, 03:37 PM

^ I think we're OK with regular sandbags - like emergency levy sandbags.

It's the kind you can hold in your hand and swing like a black-jack that I think this applies to.

But I wouldn't put it past a Chicago cop to arrest someone under this statute for having an actual sandbag.

Patriot86 · December 7, 2011, 04:06 PM

What about a bag of rocks? Rocks are not sand

I like to say if a cop is looking for a reason to arrest you, he will find one 100% of the time.

I do love how old-timey some of our laws are here in Illinois.

I wish I COULD carry a black jack or some kind of collapsible baton. Short of CC coming to Illinois id rather have one of the two over the pocket knife I carry right now.

Sleuth · December 7, 2011, 04:29 PM

I asked the Assistant AG of California why carrying a handgun was a misdemeanor (at the time), but a sap. club, etc. was a felony. He said it dated back to when "silent means of attack" were used to Shanghi sailors in San Francisco!

Back in 19 mumble-mumble, when I started in Law Enforcement, I was issued a sap, and told "NEVER use it!". Why? Because we were always hitting each other on the backswing! It's still around here someplace - I never did even carry it.

And the difference between a cane and a sap is the difference between a lever action .44 mag rifle and an AR 15. One is "normal" that a judge or jury might have at home, the other is ""evil"".

BlackFeather · December 7, 2011, 05:08 PM

I've never been fond of the Sap or Blackjacks. My instructor in the course I've been taking is a former LEO and he absolutely loved his Blackjack.

I DO have a pair of Sap Gloves, they are marvelous things in my opinion. I'd like to get some fingerless ones soon, when I get back to Oregon. They provide padding for your hand while the weight helps follow through on the punch. Never had to use them, but they keep my hands warm in the winter...

markj · December 7, 2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Sap Gloves,

Seen em with lead in the knuckle area. old school cops had these and my Uncle (det) carried a sap made of leather and had birdshot in it.

Iowa permit is for carrying weapons, didnt ask about non firing ones tho.

Sleuth · December 7, 2011, 06:22 PM

One of the issues with saps is they are generally 'soft' or with the lead mounted on a spring, so all you can really do with them is hit. I also have in my pile of ""stuff" a slapper, wich is a stiff sap than can be used to prod someone. I never carried that either.

And in AZ, it is a 'concealed weapon permit', no firearms listed. In theory, I could carry a Thompson subgun under my coat and be legal. We regulate the person, not the tool.

briandg · December 7, 2011, 06:28 PM

For a lot of years, I carried a standard CO2 cartridge that I had poured full of lead. It wasn't quite a pound, but it added quite a bit to my punch.

Due to bad knees and back, I sometimes use a walking stick that has about 3 ounces of lead beneath a heavy pewter cap. It would crush a skull.

Bartholomew Roberts · December 7, 2011, 06:33 PM

From a legal perspective, I think it would be very easy to cross the line into "deadly force" using a sap or blackjack, particularly if you didn't have training in the use of such a weapon.

If I am going to use deadly force, I'd much prefer to use a ranged weapon as opposed to a contact weapon; but canes and the like do have a big advantage of being readily available and relatively innocuous in parts of the world where firearms would be a problem.

December 7, 2011, 09:13 AM	#1
Wyn Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Posts: 70	Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap? Just wondering if anyone carries a blackjack or a sap? I have one and wonder if I should be carrying it or leaving it in the car in case i need it? Just wondering. Thanks for reading.

December 7, 2011, 09:29 AM	#4
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	Illegal here......... __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

December 7, 2011, 09:31 AM	#5
twobit Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2010 Location: Coyote Creak, SW Texas Posts: 597	It is also illegal in Texas to have one in your car. As mentioned, the Texas Concealed Handgun license only applies to a HANDGUN, not a baton, sap, club, illegal knife, sword,..... check the Texas Penal code chapter 46 for weapons regulations. If you are in another state, I don't have a clue as to what is legal there __________________ Twobit, Strive to live up to the opinion that your dog has of you.

December 7, 2011, 11:13 AM	#9
Lee McNelly Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 325	Getting up in age are we You might be in need of a good cane or walking stick SINCE I CANT UPLOAD TO THIS SYSTEM TRY COLD STEEL.COM FOR CANES AND WALKING STICKS A NICE IRISH ONE WOULD BE IN ORDER EVERY GOOD AMERICAN GENT NEEDS ONE Last edited by Lee McNelly; December 7, 2011 at 11:19 AM.

December 7, 2011, 12:14 PM	#12
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Illinois list black-jack specifically, but also with the general term "bludgeon" (720 ILCS 5/Art. 24 heading) ARTICLE 24. DEADLY WEAPONS (720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1) Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons. (a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly: (1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or ..... a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material. A person convicted of a violation of subsection 24‑1(a)(1) through (5), subsection 24‑1(a)(10), subsection 24‑1(a)(11), or subsection 24‑1(a)(13) commits a Class A misdemeanor. I don't think it's the misdemeanor that's the problem per se but because it is a weapons related charge - you lose your FOID. I also think it disqualifies you from some non-res CCW permits. I recall seeing a question on some of the forms asking if you'd ever been convicted of a weapons charge -maybe its the PA aplication (can't remember). .

December 7, 2011, 09:26 AM	#3
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	I carry one in my truck. I turned it myself from Osage Orange. Even though, at age 73, I don't need a cane I have made myself a couple. One has a 1" hickory shaft and an antique brass horse hame tip. The tip is quite heavy and would dent a bowling ball. I figure a 70+ year old man using a cane would not be questioned. Actually, I'm pretty healthy and agile. Someone mess with me or family they will get a rude awakening just before I put them to sleep.

December 7, 2011, 10:02 AM	#6
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Illegal in Illinois. It is a UUW, and if convicted it will cost you your FOID (no longer able to rent a range, purchase ammunition, or purchase firearms in Illinois).

December 7, 2011, 10:21 AM	#7
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	Illegal here in NY.

December 7, 2011, 10:51 AM	#8
k511 Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 461	god i love Oregon..... i keep the blackjack in my truck, and the wife has an asp in her car.....along with the revolvers of course..

December 7, 2011, 11:56 AM	#11
sgms Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Arizona or Ohio depending Posts: 1,021	Stick with a cane, they are legal everywhere. I carry a cane made to support up to 500 lbs. that has a solid brass ball as a handle. It is heavier than a standard cane(as expected) and is a standoff weapon that most punks do not know to deal with. It will out reach a knife, break bones, even kill if used forcefully enough. It will also allow you to clear enough space to draw your gun or in arms reach fights keep your attacker from grabbing your gun. It is important to learn some stick fighting or police riot baton use to be effective.

December 7, 2011, 12:16 PM	#13
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I've been known to carry a walking stick on occasion,,, Way back in time,,, When dinosaurs ruled the earth,,, I was an up and coming karate student. Enter the Dragon had just came out,,, We were all begging Mr. Chan to teach us to use "chucks". His response was, "Why learn a weapon you can't carry?" "Bummer" we all thought. Instead he taught us lots of great techniques,,, Using a simple walking stick/cane. Interestingly enough when I left Korea and came back stateside,,, I found what he had taught us was so very similar to LAPD baton techniques. So if you can get used to carrying a walking stick,,, They are a very capable weapon with very little training,,, Besides, they be dashing and you too can stroll like Bat Masterson. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

December 7, 2011, 12:20 PM	#14
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I wouldn't want to have a blackjack in my hand when the BG pulls a gun.

December 7, 2011, 01:54 PM	#15
Wyn Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Posts: 70	I had a friend who used to drive a cab in New York City in the 50's and 60's. He used to take alot of fares to 125th St. and the Harlem area. One of the favorite places to go was Minton's Jazz Club. He used to carry a blackjack to protect against drunks and unrulys. He said one time a fare got in his cab and demanded the money from the night. He wallopped him with the blackjack and he went stumbling out of the cab and took off. He was very pleased with its results. I wonder why with so many states banning them why they still make them. Blackjacks and saps are easily found for purchase.

December 7, 2011, 01:55 PM	#16
secret_agent_man Junior member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Posts: 463	All manner of common hand held weapons such as knives, saps and jacks, clubs, etc. are legal under the Second Amendment and the body of natural law which predates it. But mountains will have to be moved before the above is stare decisis.

December 7, 2011, 03:37 PM	#18
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	^ I think we're OK with regular sandbags - like emergency levy sandbags. It's the kind you can hold in your hand and swing like a black-jack that I think this applies to. But I wouldn't put it past a Chicago cop to arrest someone under this statute for having an actual sandbag.

December 7, 2011, 04:06 PM	#19
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	What about a bag of rocks? Rocks are not sand I like to say if a cop is looking for a reason to arrest you, he will find one 100% of the time. I do love how old-timey some of our laws are here in Illinois. I wish I COULD carry a black jack or some kind of collapsible baton. Short of CC coming to Illinois id rather have one of the two over the pocket knife I carry right now.

December 7, 2011, 04:29 PM	#20
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	I asked the Assistant AG of California why carrying a handgun was a misdemeanor (at the time), but a sap. club, etc. was a felony. He said it dated back to when "silent means of attack" were used to Shanghi sailors in San Francisco! Back in 19 mumble-mumble, when I started in Law Enforcement, I was issued a sap, and told "NEVER use it!". Why? Because we were always hitting each other on the backswing! It's still around here someplace - I never did even carry it. And the difference between a cane and a sap is the difference between a lever action .44 mag rifle and an AR 15. One is "normal" that a judge or jury might have at home, the other is ""evil"". __________________ Sleuth

December 7, 2011, 05:08 PM	#21
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	I've never been fond of the Sap or Blackjacks. My instructor in the course I've been taking is a former LEO and he absolutely loved his Blackjack. I DO have a pair of Sap Gloves, they are marvelous things in my opinion. I'd like to get some fingerless ones soon, when I get back to Oregon. They provide padding for your hand while the weight helps follow through on the punch. Never had to use them, but they keep my hands warm in the winter... __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

December 7, 2011, 06:22 PM	#23
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	One of the issues with saps is they are generally 'soft' or with the lead mounted on a spring, so all you can really do with them is hit. I also have in my pile of ""stuff" a slapper, wich is a stiff sap than can be used to prod someone. I never carried that either. And in AZ, it is a 'concealed weapon permit', no firearms listed. In theory, I could carry a Thompson subgun under my coat and be legal. We regulate the person, not the tool. __________________ Sleuth

December 7, 2011, 06:28 PM	#24
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	For a lot of years, I carried a standard CO2 cartridge that I had poured full of lead. It wasn't quite a pound, but it added quite a bit to my punch. Due to bad knees and back, I sometimes use a walking stick that has about 3 ounces of lead beneath a heavy pewter cap. It would crush a skull.

December 7, 2011, 06:33 PM	#25
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	From a legal perspective, I think it would be very easy to cross the line into "deadly force" using a sap or blackjack, particularly if you didn't have training in the use of such a weapon. If I am going to use deadly force, I'd much prefer to use a ranged weapon as opposed to a contact weapon; but canes and the like do have a big advantage of being readily available and relatively innocuous in parts of the world where firearms would be a problem.