How to own a Legal "SMG" no Stamps?

[stonewall50]

I am just wondering if our resident gun guys can help me navigate the laws on the legal vs illegal variants of said weapons. So basically what I'm thinking of is something like a pistol caliber shoulder fired weapon. Like am MP5 or MPX.

This is not too debate the ins and outs of preferred/better weapons. If you told me to pick a self defense weapon it would be an older model 870 from early 90s and a short barrel. I just want to know about the law on this topic and my Google fu is no match for the ins and outs of ridiculous federal law and atf guidelines.

I am just curious about average Joe who wants to own an MP5, what would the gun have to "look like" to be completely legal without special stamps or licenses or whatever (like a standard rifle/shotgun/handgun.




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[HKFanNC]

No (Tax) stamps? It's gotta be a rifle with a 16" barrel or a pistol with an "arm brace".

I'm not touching the subject of shouldering an arm brace.


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[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by HKFanNC

No (Tax) stamps? It's gotta be a rifle with a 16" barrel or a pistol with an "arm brace".

I'm not touching the subject of shouldering an arm brace.


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That's fine. So basically, being chambered in a handgun caliber and shoulder fired it is treated as a rifle. And that's it. I wasn't 100% on that. I didn't know if the pistol caliber changed anything.

Sigh. Too bad federal gun control law was written by people who didn't know anything about the law or guns.


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[Bill DeShivs]

No one bothered to tell you, but it can't be automatic-hence not an "SMG."

[Jim Watson]

Thing is, it was. The object was to install the maximum of restrictions short of a ban known to have been unconstitutional in the 1930s.

[JohnKSa]

So basically what I'm thinking of is something like a pistol caliber shoulder fired weapon.

Legal as long as it's not fully automatic AND as long as the barrel is 16" or longer.

If the barrel is shorter than 16" then you need a tax stamp to put a shoulder stock on it.

So basically, being chambered in a handgun caliber and shoulder fired it is treated as a rifle.

The chambering is irrelevant. The legal definitions do not involve the chambering.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

[Max713]

Caliber has absolutely nothing (zero-zip-nada) to do with firearm designation. Either you have a barrel longer than 16" that you can shoulder, or a barrel shorter than 16" that you cannot shoulder. When considering a rifle anyways. Smooth bore/shot is even more complicated.

[dakota.potts]

MP5 Pistol with no stamp

MP5 Pistol with Arm Brace, no stamp (not to be shouldered)

MP5 with a foregrip requiring either an AOW stamp (no stock allowed) or SBR stamp (stock allowed)

MP5 SBR's requiring stamp

HK94 (rifle variant of MP5) no stamp required if barrel stays 16" and overall length 26"

MP5 Clone with fake suppressor bringing overall barrel length to 16"+. No stamp required as long as the barrel extension is permanently attached (high temp solder, blind pinned, or welded)

Hope that helps. That is assuming that all meet the ATF definition of semi-automatic and are not machine guns.

[Aguila Blanca]

As Cool Hand Luke once said, 'What we have here is a failure to communicate."

The title of this thread is about "SMG"s. "SMG" is the acronym for "submachine gun," which by definition is a man-carried machine gun chambered in a pistol caliber. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a legal submachine gun without a tax stamp. Period.

Perhaps the OP would be kind enough to claify whether he's really asking about a submachine gun, or if he's asking about semi-automatic firearms that look like submachine guns.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by stonewall50

....Too bad federal gun control law was written by people who didn't know anything about the law or guns....

Actually, if you look at the definitions under federal law (18 USC 921) as quoted in post 6, they're pretty straightforward.

[FrankenMauser]

dakota.potts showed some good examples.


SMG = stamp/license.

SBR = stamp/license.

Handgun/Rifle = no stamp.

If you want an SBR, get a stamp.

If you want a 'handgun' with a brace, get a stamp. (10 years and $100k fine isn't a joke.)

If you want a 'handgun' with AOW features, get a stamp. (See above.)

Chambering doesn't matter.

Configuration, overall length, and barrel length are key.
Configuration is a complicated subject; but a butt stock is an instant "rifle", "SBR", or "SBS". Overall length, for a rifle, must be at least 26 inches. Barrel length, for a rifle, must be 16 inches or greater (no restrictions for a handgun).
Failing any of those usually gets into SBR or AOW territory. (Very, very rarely, can it fall into the no-man's-land of simply a "Title 1 Firearm" without being a rifle, handgun, shotgun, SBR, or SBS. ...But that's not likely to be applicable here.)

[AverageJo]

Originally Posted by Max713

Caliber has absolutely nothing (zero-zip-nada) to do with firearm designation. Either you have a barrel longer than 16" that you can shoulder, or a barrel shorter than 16" that you cannot shoulder. When considering a rifle anyways. Smooth bore/shot is even more complicated.

Interesting that you say that the caliber has nothing to do with the NFA laws. I was watching CNN the other day and they referenced the calibers like 22mm and 357mm hand guns together with .9 caliber rifle. Hmm. What gives. :0)

[JimPage]

Don't take advice from CNN LOL

[spacecoast]

Artillery Luger - 8" barrel, 32 rounds of 9mm on tap, shouldered and fired with one hand, no stamp required. Navy Lugers (6" barrel) and Broomhandle Mausers with stocks are similarly allowed.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Artillery Luger - 8" barrel, 32 rounds of 9mm on tap, shouldered and fired with one hand, no stamp required. Navy Lugers (6" barrel) and Broomhandle Mausers with stocks are similarly allowed.

A very limited exception for certain Curio & Relic handguns with original stocks.

[spacecoast]

A very limited exception for certain Curio & Relic handguns with original stocks.

Fortunately, repro stocks are also permitted. I keep a copy of the BATF regulation and opinion letter in my range bag. The range officers love the rig.

[raimius]

Dakota Potts gave a good visual guide.

If you have no stock and no forward handgrip, the barrel on your semi auto Pistol can be any length.
"Pistol braces" which can look much like a stock are legal, BUT the ATF currently says putting them to your shoulder "redesigns" them into a stock...Thus a pistol with a brace may or may not be an NFA SBR depending on how you hold it....Goofy, I know...

A rifle with a 16in or greater barrel and total length over 26in is also legal without a stamp (semi auto, of course)

That sums up most of the federal laws, state laws may vary.

[JohnKSa]

Interesting that you say that the caliber has nothing to do with the NFA laws.

Nobody said that.

There are certainly NFA laws which relate to caliber or muzzle diameter, but the definitions of machineguns, rifles, shotguns, SBRs, SBSs and handguns do not make any mention of caliber.

[dogtown tom]

spacecoast

Fortunately, repro stocks are also permitted. I keep a copy of the BATF regulation and opinion letter in my range bag. The range officers love the rig.

What is the date on your ATF opinion letter?
Is it this letter from 1981?
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter58.txt

If so...have you read this one from 1999? http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter70.txt

Remember, ATF Technical Branch Determination Letters only apply to the person they are addressed to.

[g.willikers]

Then there's the problem with what the law says and what the guy with the badge thinks it says.
Cutting it too close to the line of the law can get troublesome.
Just a thought.

[Aguila Blanca]

I still think we need to have stonewall50 tell us what he's really asking. Does he want to buy an SMG (submachine gun, and therefore by definition an NFA item), or is he really asking about a semi-automatic toy that looks like an SMG?

[lefteye]

Does federal law define a Remington Model 870 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled barrel installed at the manufacturing plant (and no other barrel included) to be a "rifle?"

[carguychris]

^^^ Although a firearm with a rifled bore more than 1/2" in diameter is normally considered a destructive device, there is a specific "carve-out" in the "shall not include..." section of 26 USC § 5845(f) for rifled slug guns.

From the law, my emphasis in boldface:

The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

I suggest that this topic be given its own thread if we intend to discuss it further, as it has little to do with the original SMG topic (which remains ambiguous in itself).

[MagnumWill]

Spacecoast, for the same price do that Luger there you COULD get an actual SMG, like an Uzi or Reising...

[Chris Karma]

doesn't Montana allow you to build any gun you like as long as you keep it in state and do not transfer it?
"i am not a lawyer"