FBI uses chainsaw on wrong place

pcb911 · February 2, 2012, 07:16 PM

Saw this today on Fox News: http://video.foxnews.com/v/143007040...ylist_id=86928 .

This is not a driveby but an example of something gone wrong. This really bothers me as to how they treated the lady and then said they were sorry and wanted to pay for the door.

The talking head lawyers acted like it was nothing but a mistake. If you or me had broken in by mistake, we would have been charged and sent to prison. After a swift trial.

As in F & F, everyone should be brought to justice no matter who they are.

BarryLee · February 2, 2012, 07:33 PM

Not an attorney, but I think it is almost impossible to sue the Police because they simply made a mistake. If you can prove the intentionally did something wrong or that there is a civil rights issue involved then you might have a case.

pcb911 · February 2, 2012, 08:01 PM

BL, I understand "the king can do no wrong" protection that we have allowed our governments to use to "cover their asses".

My only thought is that we need to be protected from overly aggressive actions against our citizens and their Rights. To quote: "is better for 1000 guilty to go free, than for 1 innocent to be punished."

**Aguila Blanca** · February 2, 2012, 08:54 PM

Obviously, this woman does not have her priorities straight. She should be thankful they only used a chainsaw and not a shotgun, and just shut up.

(Disclaimer: That WAS sarcasm, folks.) It is "mistakes" such as this that kill innocent people, and it is "mistakes" such as this that are the reason that judges simply should not approve no-knock or "dynamic entry" search warrants for anything short of a Jack the Ripper style murderer. The whole point of a search warrant is that they are supposed to SERVE the warrant, showing it to the person and allowing them to read it BEFORE they enter. If they did that, she could have told them, 'Hey, this person doesn't live here, you have the wrong address."

But ... NOOOOOOOOO! It's more fun to break out the chainsaw.

armoredman · February 2, 2012, 09:00 PM

If I remember correctly, there WAS a case where a homeowner defended his home against some home invaders, killing one, before discovering it was police serving a wrong address search warrant, and subsequently he did get "off". Anyone else remember that? Wonder what happened to him after the light of the media went away?

RedBowTies88 · February 2, 2012, 09:07 PM

Had this happned ay my home I would of had my gun out and I probably would of been killed.

This kind of mistake is completely untolerable. It puts innocents lives on the line.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 2, 2012, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBowTies88

This kind of mistake is completely untolerable. It puts innocents lives on the line.

Precisely.

TXAZ · February 2, 2012, 09:25 PM

What happened to "EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW"?

**Aguila Blanca** · February 2, 2012, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXAZ

What happened to "EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW"?

Still in full force and effect. The police are doing these no knock, dynamic entry raids for things like a quarter ounce of weed or a parking ticket all over the United States. Everyone has an equal opportunity to be violated.

nate45 · February 3, 2012, 04:03 AM

It brings up lots of questions, especially here on TFL.

Many of us often write about our security precautions and HD weapons. We often discuss how to deal with home invaders. When the alarm goes off and/or the dog/s start barking and the door comes crashing in, followed by guys in balaclavas wearing camouflage; how many among us are going to start shooting?

Then what after the incident is over? What does the agency involved say? Sorry we got the wrong house? Sorry we destroyed your property and/or killed, or maimed you? Sorry, but the house two doors down, was a low level drug dealer and we needed to use military style tactics in the interest of public safety? I wouldn't even comment, or be overly concerned, but if one does a google search, they'll find these types of incidents are not all that rare.

If these types of operations are going to continue to be conducted, then some safeguards need to be implemented. At the very least, one or two people in supervisory positions should always be held absolutely responsible for getting the right location. When I say absolutely, I mean monetarily, legally, the works. If you're in charge and the wrong house is invaded, you lose your job, you lose a lot of your money and you do time in jail.

Bailey Boat · February 3, 2012, 07:40 AM

Had it been my home they entered by "mistake" my wife would be very wealthy because I will defend my home to the death against what I feel are "unlawful entries". Without a doubt, in this case I would have been killed when I resisted but some of them would have died with me.......

Double Naught Spy · February 3, 2012, 08:45 AM

Original link does not appear to work. Here is a new link...

http://video.foxnews.com/v/143007040...ylist_id=87937

I like the tough talk martyrs. I thought y'all were better prepared than that.

Stealthcarry · February 3, 2012, 08:58 AM

It's not important wether you live or die, just how many of THEM you take along for the ride....

I'm just kidding, of course. Aren't I?

manta49 · February 3, 2012, 09:28 AM

RedBowTies88
Senior Member

Join Date: October 18, 2011
Location: 609 NJ
Posts: 136 Had this happned ay my home I would of had my gun out and I probably would of been killed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read a lot on this forum about how shooting would be a last resort and all the training they do. Identifying the threat and target before shooting but a lot on this thread seam to be saying that they would qust start shooting and identify what the threat was and who they where shooting at later.

icedog88 · February 3, 2012, 10:20 AM

You would think that in the 2 years the investigation was going on, they might have rechecked the address! I wonder if anyone heard the chainsaw being started and called the police.

This does confuse me though. Why not just use the battering ram? Is the chainsaw for psychological terror against the occupant?

Young.Gun.612 · February 3, 2012, 11:25 AM

manta49,

When in public, yes I would identify the threat before firing. If I'm sitting on my couch at home and the door gets busted in without warning I'm throwing a lot of lead at whatever is coming through.

aarondhgraham · February 3, 2012, 11:43 AM

To think that if I'm sitting in my home minding my own business,,,
And someone starts taking a chainsaw to my front door,,,
That I would be reasonably expected to think,,,
I better wait and see if this is a cop.

<RANT>

That burden can not be put on me,,,
It's time that LE in general stops wild-west tactics.

We are citizens dang-it,,,
Not subjects!

</RANT>

Aarond

manta49 · February 3, 2012, 12:34 PM

Its not probably that unusual for the police to go to the wrong door. If every time they did the occupier started shooting there would be a lot of homeowners in jail. Remember if you start shooting there is going to be a lot more lead coming back your way possibly killing you and members of your family that you tought you where protecting. Hardly a good result.

**44 AMP** · February 3, 2012, 01:42 PM

Otherwise, this thread is going away, soon.

Avoid the general rants, please, and we might be able to have a good discussion.

Remember that the "police" is made up of individuals, and the "I have a badge so I can do anything I want" mindset is only found in a very, very few people. General rants and cop bashing will only get this closed, and perhaps worse.

Already mentioned, the most salient points, the use of extreme force and "dynamic entry" where it doesn't seem called for. Getting the address wrong is something that has been happening since there were cops. The big difference is that today, we hear more about it, thanks to our wonderful advanced communications net.

We don't pay as much attention to it when the cops get the right address, and get shot at, or shot, that's just everyday business, right?

I have to admit, the chainsaw seems over the top, not in any way standard entry procedures. Somebody's been watching too many movies.

Yes, we all are ready to defend our homes from attackers (and rightly so), but shooting at the police (even when you don't know they are the police) seldom ends well, for anyone, and never ends well for everyone.

orangello · February 3, 2012, 01:57 PM

I don't see any real advantage to a chainsaw, but i don't do this kind of work. I think such "no Knock" situations should be rethought with "Know before "no Knock"" as a motto. I do wonder how many LEO's have died at the wrong address on such a raid? I also wonder how long the lady really needed to be held at gunpoint? How long does it take to figure out you have accosted a random housewife rather than a meth cook? ID check & call to HQ wouldn't seem like something that would take longer than maybe fifteen minutes. What am i missing there?

Quote:

Wonder what happened to him after the light of the media went away?

Armoredman, if you are thinking of the Cory Maye (Prentiss, MS), he has been released after pleading to a manslaughter charge and getting "time served". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye Wikipedia's article isn't 100% but does get the basics. Mr. Maye is out. That was a really bad situation.

I should point out that in a memorable local case of a "wrong address & no Knock", the elderly residents rousted by the PD were eventually quite glad to have had the "visit" as the alleged meth cooks in the next house moved rather suddenly after the "no knock". (PD repaired damages and apologized profusely)

MTT TL · February 3, 2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

We don't pay as much attention to it when the cops get the right address, and get shot at, or shot, that's just everyday business, right?

They don't talk about it much except to say it is under investigation. Still it happens a lot less than you might think. I reckon police get the wrong address more often than they get shot and killed during raids (which despite TV happens almost never).

You see chain saws in fire and rescue applications frequently. I must admit this is a first for me in law enforcement.

BlueTrain · February 3, 2012, 04:10 PM

Fifteen or twenty years ago (the days are hastening by) there was a case in Philadelphia where the police went after some bad guys in a townhouse. The bad guys, whoever they were, had practially fortified the house. It ended up with almost the whole block being burned down. The citizens did not complain!

The point is, generally speaking, the citizenry are often as not behind the heavy-handed tactics the police sometimes use. You read it here just as often as you read the opposite. If you want the government to be tough on crime, you got it.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 3, 2012, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Already mentioned, the most salient points, the use of extreme force and "dynamic entry" where it doesn't seem called for. Getting the address wrong is something that has been happening since there were cops. The big difference is that today, we hear more about it, thanks to our wonderful advanced communications net.

We don't pay as much attention to it when the cops get the right address, and get shot at, or shot, that's just everyday business, right?

No, we pay attention if it's a police officer who gets shot, too. Whoever gets shot, if it is because a no-knock or dynamic entry warrant is being "served" at an incorrect address (or at a correct address where the subject hasn't lived for six months or a year or more), it simply demonstrates that these types of warrants are being overused and abused.

In the old days, for the most part search warrants were "served" in the way the word connotes -- the police knocked on the door, the occupant answered, the police handed them a copy of the warrant and said "We have a warrant to search these premises, please step aside and let us in." When served in this manner, a wrong address or a skipped subject is not a major deal, not a threat to anyone's life, because the occupant can read the warrant and point out that "This is 373 NORTH Elm Street, 373 South Elm Street is a mile south of here, on the other side of Main Street," or "This is apartment 22C, your warrant is for apartment 22G," or "My name is Horatio Hornblower, Sigmund Freud used to live here but he moved eight months ago."

When the police insist on smashing down the door "in the interest of safety," all that becomes irrelevant.

Further, if you read the laws pertaining to search warrants, they typically read in a way that is supposed to afford the servee (if that's a word -- if not, I just made it up) an opportunity to read the warrant. No knocks and dynamic entries are supposed to be rare exceptions to the general rule regarding searches. Unfortunately, thanks to a generally spineless judiciary, these types of warrant "services" are becoming the norm rather than the exception.

For example, this is what Pennsylvania's statutes say about serving a search warrant:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 234 PA Code, Rule 207

Rule 207. Manner of Entry Into Premises.

(A) A law enforcement officer executing a search warrant shall, before entry, give, or make reasonable effort to give, notice of the officer’s identity, authority, and purpose to any occupant of the premises specified in the warrant, unless exigent circumstances require the officer’s immediate forcible entry.

(B) Such officer shall await a response for a reasonable period of time after this announcement of identity, authority, and purpose, unless exigent circumstances require the officer’s immediate forcible entry.

(C) If the officer is not admitted after such reasonable period, the officer may forcibly enter the premises and may use as much physical force to effect entry therein as is necessary to execute the search.

Note the multiple references to giving "reasonable" notice, and to waiting a "reasonable" time, as well as the requirement to identify himself and his authority. The exception is for "exigent circumstances." The problem is that the police (in general) are telling the courts that virtually every warrant is a case of exigent circumstances. That's a logical fallacy, because "exigent" cannot be pre-established. Exigent circumstances is when the officer is standing at the door talking to a woman who says the guy they're looking for left town, and the officer sees the guy at the end of the hall entering the bedroom. THAT's "exigent circumstances."

RedBowTies88 · February 3, 2012, 05:19 PM

How is a law abiding citizen to know this while sitting in his own home? do you mean tell me that if you were sitting there and a chainsaw whent ripping through your door that your first thought would be "oh its probably just the police at the wrong house again"? I know my first thought is someone is coming here to do me and my family harm and i'm going to take appropriate action.

nate45 · February 3, 2012, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manta49

Fair enough if you think its a good idea shooting at the police.

None of us thinks shooting at the police is a good idea, I hope. None of us is advocating shooting it out with the police intentionally.

manta49, your N. Ireland life and police view has very, very little to do with the reality of armed home invasions in the USA. Instead of telling us what the police in N. Ireland would do, or what you would do there; research armed home invasions, burglary and murder in the USA. Claiming to be the police is one tactic home invaders use. Waiting to see if the guys in camouflage with weapons are really police could cost you your life. Think about it, if you are innocent (as far as you know) and law abiding, you have no reason to suspect they are real police.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Yes, we all are ready to defend our homes from attackers (and rightly so), but shooting at the police (even when you don't know they are the police) seldom ends well, for anyone, and never ends well for everyone.

Exactly 44 AMP, most all of us are all prepared to defend our homes with deadly force. Shooting at the police would be tragic, no matter how it turned out.

Thats why this is so serious and in my opinion, rises way above a simple mistake. Great pains should be taken to insure they have the right address and if their negligence causes serious injury, or death someone should be severely punished. All of the onus should fall on the invaders, not the invaded. Its hardly police bashing to insist that they get the right address.

February 2, 2012, 07:16 PM	#1
pcb911 Member Join Date: February 10, 2011 Location: North Georgia & Fl. Posts: 44	FBI uses chainsaw on wrong place Saw this today on Fox News: http://video.foxnews.com/v/143007040...ylist_id=86928 . This is not a driveby but an example of something gone wrong. This really bothers me as to how they treated the lady and then said they were sorry and wanted to pay for the door. The talking head lawyers acted like it was nothing but a mistake. If you or me had broken in by mistake, we would have been charged and sent to prison. After a swift trial. As in F & F, everyone should be brought to justice no matter who they are. __________________ Assume nothing.

February 2, 2012, 07:33 PM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	Not an attorney, but I think it is almost impossible to sue the Police because they simply made a mistake. If you can prove the intentionally did something wrong or that there is a civil rights issue involved then you might have a case. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

February 2, 2012, 08:01 PM	#3
pcb911 Member Join Date: February 10, 2011 Location: North Georgia & Fl. Posts: 44	BL, I understand "the king can do no wrong" protection that we have allowed our governments to use to "cover their asses". My only thought is that we need to be protected from overly aggressive actions against our citizens and their Rights. To quote: "is better for 1000 guilty to go free, than for 1 innocent to be punished." __________________ Assume nothing.

February 2, 2012, 09:07 PM	#6
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	Had this happned ay my home I would of had my gun out and I probably would of been killed. This kind of mistake is completely untolerable. It puts innocents lives on the line. __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

February 2, 2012, 09:25 PM	#8
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	What happened to "EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW"? __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes Last edited by TXAZ; February 2, 2012 at 09:37 PM.

February 2, 2012, 08:54 PM	#4
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	Obviously, this woman does not have her priorities straight. She should be thankful they only used a chainsaw and not a shotgun, and just shut up. (Disclaimer: That WAS sarcasm, folks.) It is "mistakes" such as this that kill innocent people, and it is "mistakes" such as this that are the reason that judges simply should not approve no-knock or "dynamic entry" search warrants for anything short of a Jack the Ripper style murderer. The whole point of a search warrant is that they are supposed to SERVE the warrant, showing it to the person and allowing them to read it BEFORE they enter. If they did that, she could have told them, 'Hey, this person doesn't live here, you have the wrong address." But ... NOOOOOOOOO! It's more fun to break out the chainsaw.

February 2, 2012, 09:00 PM	#5
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	If I remember correctly, there WAS a case where a homeowner defended his home against some home invaders, killing one, before discovering it was police serving a wrong address search warrant, and subsequently he did get "off". Anyone else remember that? Wonder what happened to him after the light of the media went away?

February 3, 2012, 04:03 AM	#10
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	It brings up lots of questions, especially here on TFL. Many of us often write about our security precautions and HD weapons. We often discuss how to deal with home invaders. When the alarm goes off and/or the dog/s start barking and the door comes crashing in, followed by guys in balaclavas wearing camouflage; how many among us are going to start shooting? Then what after the incident is over? What does the agency involved say? Sorry we got the wrong house? Sorry we destroyed your property and/or killed, or maimed you? Sorry, but the house two doors down, was a low level drug dealer and we needed to use military style tactics in the interest of public safety? I wouldn't even comment, or be overly concerned, but if one does a google search, they'll find these types of incidents are not all that rare. If these types of operations are going to continue to be conducted, then some safeguards need to be implemented. At the very least, one or two people in supervisory positions should always be held absolutely responsible for getting the right location. When I say absolutely, I mean monetarily, legally, the works. If you're in charge and the wrong house is invaded, you lose your job, you lose a lot of your money and you do time in jail. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

February 3, 2012, 07:40 AM	#11
Bailey Boat Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: NC Posts: 365	Had it been my home they entered by "mistake" my wife would be very wealthy because I will defend my home to the death against what I feel are "unlawful entries". Without a doubt, in this case I would have been killed when I resisted but some of them would have died with me.......

February 3, 2012, 08:45 AM	#12
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Original link does not appear to work. Here is a new link... http://video.foxnews.com/v/143007040...ylist_id=87937 I like the tough talk martyrs. I thought y'all were better prepared than that. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

February 3, 2012, 08:58 AM	#13
Stealthcarry Junior member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: The Frozen Tundra Posts: 8	It's not important wether you live or die, just how many of THEM you take along for the ride.... I'm just kidding, of course. Aren't I?

February 3, 2012, 09:28 AM	#14
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 136 Had this happned ay my home I would of had my gun out and I probably would of been killed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read a lot on this forum about how shooting would be a last resort and all the training they do. Identifying the threat and target before shooting but a lot on this thread seam to be saying that they would qust start shooting and identify what the threat was and who they where shooting at later.

February 3, 2012, 10:20 AM	#15
icedog88 Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: norwich ct Posts: 737	You would think that in the 2 years the investigation was going on, they might have rechecked the address! I wonder if anyone heard the chainsaw being started and called the police. This does confuse me though. Why not just use the battering ram? Is the chainsaw for psychological terror against the occupant? __________________ "The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949 Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]

February 3, 2012, 11:25 AM	#16
Young.Gun.612 Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 400	manta49, When in public, yes I would identify the threat before firing. If I'm sitting on my couch at home and the door gets busted in without warning I'm throwing a lot of lead at whatever is coming through.

February 3, 2012, 11:43 AM	#17
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	It's the height of absurdity,,, To think that if I'm sitting in my home minding my own business,,, And someone starts taking a chainsaw to my front door,,, That I would be reasonably expected to think,,, I better wait and see if this is a cop. <RANT> That burden can not be put on me,,, It's time that LE in general stops wild-west tactics. We are citizens dang-it,,, Not subjects! </RANT> Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

February 3, 2012, 12:34 PM	#18
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	Its not probably that unusual for the police to go to the wrong door. If every time they did the occupier started shooting there would be a lot of homeowners in jail. Remember if you start shooting there is going to be a lot more lead coming back your way possibly killing you and members of your family that you tought you where protecting. Hardly a good result.

February 3, 2012, 01:42 PM	#19
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,813	simmer down...ok? Otherwise, this thread is going away, soon. Avoid the general rants, please, and we might be able to have a good discussion. Remember that the "police" is made up of individuals, and the "I have a badge so I can do anything I want" mindset is only found in a very, very few people. General rants and cop bashing will only get this closed, and perhaps worse. Already mentioned, the most salient points, the use of extreme force and "dynamic entry" where it doesn't seem called for. Getting the address wrong is something that has been happening since there were cops. The big difference is that today, we hear more about it, thanks to our wonderful advanced communications net. We don't pay as much attention to it when the cops get the right address, and get shot at, or shot, that's just everyday business, right? I have to admit, the chainsaw seems over the top, not in any way standard entry procedures. Somebody's been watching too many movies. Yes, we all are ready to defend our homes from attackers (and rightly so), but shooting at the police (even when you don't know they are the police) seldom ends well, for anyone, and never ends well for everyone. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 3, 2012, 04:10 PM	#22
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Fifteen or twenty years ago (the days are hastening by) there was a case in Philadelphia where the police went after some bad guys in a townhouse. The bad guys, whoever they were, had practially fortified the house. It ended up with almost the whole block being burned down. The citizens did not complain! The point is, generally speaking, the citizenry are often as not behind the heavy-handed tactics the police sometimes use. You read it here just as often as you read the opposite. If you want the government to be tough on crime, you got it. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 3, 2012, 05:19 PM	#24
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	How is a law abiding citizen to know this while sitting in his own home? do you mean tell me that if you were sitting there and a chainsaw whent ripping through your door that your first thought would be "oh its probably just the police at the wrong house again"? I know my first thought is someone is coming here to do me and my family harm and i'm going to take appropriate action. __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)