The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 6, 2009, 12:00 AM   #1
redwing 40
Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Posts: 73
C96 shoulder stock

I am confused. I thought a C96 with a shoulder stock was legal. I read on another forum where you must have an SBR Permit?? What about the Artillery Luger?
It was stated that these guns with stocks were OK after 1981 but the law changed again in 1998. There are a number of firms selling these stocks without warnings. What are the facts. THX
redwing 40 is offline  
Old April 6, 2009, 12:03 AM   #2
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,857
I'm not a lawyer or an expert, but I think they are old enough to be a "curio & relic", and thus allowed under that classification.

I think there are some "trapper" lever actions that fall into that deal also, that would otherwise be SBRs.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Old April 6, 2009, 08:15 AM   #3
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
Some are antiques also.
I know they are legal and it has something to do with their age.
If they lack the stock I believe it can be replaced with one meant to look like the original without voiding the C+R classification.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old April 8, 2009, 06:38 PM   #4
Chipperman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2000
Location: Live Free or Die, Baby!
Posts: 1,550
Broomies and Lugers are fine with no Stamp b/c of C&R status. Something modern like a Glock would require a Stamp.
Chipperman is offline  
Old April 10, 2009, 08:53 PM   #5
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,062
Quote:
redwing 40: I am confused. I thought a C96 with a shoulder stock was legal. I read on another forum where you must have an SBR Permit?? What about the Artillery Luger?
It was stated that these guns with stocks were OK after 1981 but the law changed again in 1998. There are a number of firms selling these stocks without warnings. What are the facts. THX

Was this what you saw on another forum?

The thread was in reference to the legality of attaching a reproduction stock to certain handguns.



Quote:
dogtown tom Quote:
Quote:
doubs43 :..Reproduction stocks ARE legal for the C-96, Browning Hi-Power and the Luger...
Reproduction stocks are NOT legal for attachment to the Mauser C96, Browning Hi Power or Luger unless you hold a SBR tax stamp.

Current ATF regs say it has to be an original stock. As of 1999 a reproduction/replica/copy is an NFA violation unless you have a SBR tax stamp.

Only certain 96 Mauser, Lugers and HP's are exempt from the National Firearms Act. You can see the complete list at:http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...7/section3.pdf

It's getting harder and harder to tell an original from a copy. When the ATF ruled in 1981 that a replica stock holster was okay, quite a few very good copies were imported. Sportsman's Guide was selling Inglis HP wood stock copies last year for about $80 each. A genuine WWII vintage stock holster should run you at least $275-350.

ATF has issued conflicting "opinions" regarding replica stock/holsters.
I printed and keep both letters with my stocked Inglis.

From 1981 (said repros are okay):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter58.txt

From 1999 (said repros need $200 tax stamp):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter70.txt

****Only those Inglis Hi Powers with a Tangent rear sight are exempt from the NFA when a stock is attached. A number of fixed sight Inglis Hi Powers had a stock slot cut at the factory but ARE NOT exempt from the NFA.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old April 12, 2009, 01:54 PM   #6
redwing 40
Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Posts: 73
Yes that is the post. I am still confused is it legal or not to attach a reproduction stock to a Luger or a C96. It seems from this post that it
is not.
redwing 40 is offline  
Old April 12, 2009, 07:30 PM   #7
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,062
Quote:
redwing 40: Yes that is the post. I am still confused is it legal or not to attach a reproduction stock to a Luger or a C96. It seems from this post that it
is not.
Sorry, I don't know how to make it any more plain than I did in that post.

I highly recommend you contact your local ATF office if you intend to attach a reproduction stock to a Luger, Mauser or Hi Power.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old April 12, 2009, 09:43 PM   #8
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
AFAIK, all shoulder stock pistols over 50 years old WITH AN ORIGINAL SHOULDER STOCK have been removed from the purview of the NFA and classified as regular pistols as well as C&R. Note that being a C&R does NOT automatically remove a firearm from the NFA (a WWII Thompson SMG is a C&R, but still an NFA weapon).

I have a Mauser "red nine" (yes, original, not a Chinese fake) with an original shoulder stock. It had been registered, but when the ruling changed, I wrote BATFE specifically asking that the gun be removed from the NFRTR. I got a letter that it had been removed.

AFAIK, shoulder stock pistols newer than that, or older with a reproduction stock, are still under the NFA and must be registered.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 09:36 AM   #9
Rosser
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 7
C96 and shoulder stock bought separately

The question is: how do I fill out the Form 4 for a SBR?
Many years ago I bought a C96. Before the rules changed, I bought a non-original shoulder stock from another dealer. Therefore I did not buy a complete SBR from a dealer who could help with the Form 4. Note: while I own the shoulder stock, at present I do not possess it (my daughter has it at her house in another city).
Rosser is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 07:15 PM   #10
Nar3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2008
Posts: 6
Drat.

Having just bought a C96 I was looking into the stock issue.. and saddly the batf has YET again muddled the works with there FAQ.

"Q: If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?
Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser “Broomhandles” and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors’ items.
[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11] "

One would then think that if c96 has been "removed from the purview of the nfa" then a Repro stock would be ok. BUT....

The C&R List states on page 38

Mauser, Model 1896 semiautomatic pistol accompanied by original German mfd. detachable wooden holster/shoulder stocks, all semiautomatic German mfd. variations produced prior to 1940, any caliber.


So.. the most restrictive reading would mean that ONLY a C96 with the original stock is C&R at all. So if its not C&R it is still NFA so a C96 with any stock other than an original would be a Short Barreled Rifle

The ATFE needs to update their FAQ..
Nar3 is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 08:57 PM   #11
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
SO, the obvious question, how do you tell an original stock from a reproduction?
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old January 23, 2014, 09:35 PM   #12
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
The answer to that one is not easy; my response would be that "I can tell", but that obviously is neither a definitive ruling nor one that can be applied by others.

Mostly, the repros are quite crude and so poorly made that they are obvious. But if the stock looks good, and appears to be like those in the pictures, it should pass muster. Remember, BATFE can't be certain, either, so in most cases they would not take any action even if they suspected, unless the gun was actually used in a crime. The criteria of "original" is more to placate the anti-gunners than anything else. If BATFE says the change was only for old collectibles, they can't be accused of "allowing millions of easily concealable assassination weapons on the streets..."

Jim
James K is offline  
Old January 29, 2014, 03:54 PM   #13
Rosser
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 7
I'm keeping my C96 with shoulder stock

Long ago (at least 15 years), I bought a C96 then a holster/shoulder-stock. The shoulder stock is like-new, well made, but has no markings whatever on it.

In 2012, I took our local citizen’s police academy course and got to know the course director, a master police officer in the crime prevention unit.

In January 2013, I heard that C96s with after market shoulder stocks (to quote James_K "I can tell") were SBRs. I gave the shoulder stock to my daughter to hold in her apartment since apparently having them in the same house made the combination de facto an SBR. I got my ATF Form 1. I asked my academy MPO if SBRs were legal locally and, if so, for help getting the Chief Law Enforcement Officer’s signature on the ATF form. He referred me to a local classic firearms dealer who said to him and to me, in an email: “Mauser Broomhandle pistols, as well as other curio & relic handguns (Lugers, Hi Powers, Nambus, etc) that were manufactured to be used with shoulder stocks are exempt from being registered as a SBR. Perfectly legal to own with the stock, and BATF would just send any applications back if he tried to register it.”

I believe from this blog and my own reading of the NFA (with changes), that the dealer has it wrong. However, I’m keeping my C96 “SBR.”

My lesson is, give it shot and keep the paperwork.

But to quote Alan Korwin: “It not what the law says, it’s what the jury says." i intend to keep a low profile.
Rosser is offline  
Old January 29, 2014, 09:19 PM   #14
pcb911
Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2011
Location: North Georgia & Fl.
Posts: 44
This is something that has confused us for years. Back in the middle 60's I bought one of my first pistols, a "red' nine with shoulder stock from Pharr Firearms in downtown Atlanta. At the time I was told the only way I could have the stock with the gun was if the metal that attached the stock to the gun was removed which it was. Never got to shoot it as a pistol with a stock, only for storage.

Later, when I had my Class 3, I researched shoulder stocked weapons. To qualify as a C&R the stock had to be original. At the time I had a artillery Luger and Belgium Nazi marked high power with slot and tangent sight. I was told to get them legal with stock I had to get original stocks. The only way it was considered was that it had a number stamped on the metal that attached the stock to the pistol. At the time there were very few numbered stocks in the country. Then, there seem to be a few original stocks that came into the country, but they were consumed fast. Then the repos showed up as well as the cheap stocks for the 1911s.

Was told at one time, that the number on stock had to match the last numbers on the pistol. Later, it just had to have a number. Repos never had a number.

Wonder to this day, where the stock metal for my "red" nine went. I am sure it was like the parts for a m-2 carbine, never have all of them.
__________________
Assume nothing.
pcb911 is offline  
Old January 29, 2014, 11:04 PM   #15
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
" Repos never had a number."

Neither dd many originals. AFAIK, that was never a BATFE position. But it was official that the metal had to be removed from the stock, or the stock lug welded up, so many stocks and guns were mutilated. BATFE is bad with things like that, since they take ad hoc positions and in many cases one writer has been told that something is legal while another was told the exact same thing was not.

It is well to remember that the old ATTD was part of the IRS, and that kind of thing is what IRS does routinely, which is what makes them so infuriating to tax attorneys, and allows them to be politicized since they don't have to go by prior rulings or give any reason for their positions.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old January 29, 2014, 11:15 PM   #16
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
so, essentially, if the stock doesn't look brand new, there is no way to tell if it isn't an original?

What if its been refinished? I have seen a refinished broomhandle that looks new. A refinished stock would look new, as well.

Not doubting your word, or your opinion, but seems to me "I can tell" in some cases, really can't tell for certain.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old January 30, 2014, 10:34 PM   #17
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,062
Six or seven years ago, Sportsmans Guide was selling "authentic" Canadian Inglis wooden stock/holsters for about $60each.

While it had the correct "Made in Canada" and "S.A. Ltd 1945" cartouches......it reeked of fresh shellac. What gave me the most convincing hint that it was a repro was the tiny "China" sticker stuck to the underside of the holster lid.

Be aware that ATF has issued multiple letters on repro stock holsters. One says they are fine, the latest says "original only", repros need a stamp.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 11:19 PM   #18
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Hi, 44AMP and folks.

How would I tell? The main thing I would go by is the wood (walnut) and color, second the workmanship, inside and out. I would expect to see the normal signs of aging on the spring, the hinge and the button metal. Also, the stock should fit the gun without being either too tight or sloppy and without signs of being filed or fitted. The cap should close and open easily, but fit snugly and without any misalignment. If there is a number, it should be in an old German font. Also, the gun should fit in the stock. That seems a bit obvious, but some repro stocks fail that test.

I am fairly sure a good repro could fool me, so I wouldn't know it was a repro. But the repros I have seen are very obvious and should not fool anyone familiar with the original.

As to a refinished stock looking new, I doubt that; it would look refinished, just as a refinished military rifle stock looks refinished.

It is a lot like repro guns. A good repro might fool me, but it would have to be darned good.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 09:31 AM   #19
Rosser
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 7
Maybe there is hope in Virginia

Ignore the anti-gun words and see what might be possible in Virginia:
http://hamptonroads.com/2014/02/prud...ned-back-again.

Truth in lending: I believe in some restrictions but I also believe that people kill people and if they don't have guns, they will have pipe bombs. I also worry about policy-creep: one small restriction gets quietly amended then amended again until finally we have confiscation.
Rosser is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 02:51 PM   #20
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Just a note on one point:

"There are a number of firms selling these stocks without warnings."

There is no law against buying, selling or owning a shoulder stock, new or used, original or repro. What is illegal is possessing the stock and also possessing a handgun with a barrel under 16" to which it can be attached unless the combination is registered. (There are exceptions, already covered.)

So companies can make and sell shoulder stocks without the need to "warn" the buyer; it is up to the buyer to know and obey the law.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old March 27, 2021, 11:57 AM   #21
Rosser
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 7
Correction

I stand correctly corrected.
Thanks,
Rosser
[With apologies for taking 10 years to get back to this post.]
Rosser is offline  
Old March 29, 2021, 12:53 PM   #22
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
Six years since 2014 but the OP is from 2009. That's more than 10 years. The unelected civil servants at your ATF have probably changed their rules since then anyway.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old March 29, 2021, 06:47 PM   #23
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,824
I understand it's a no-no for repro stocks.

Now, what if the firearm in question is over 100 years old. Say it was made in 1896? Doesn't that also by law make it an antique that removes it from Ban All The Fun jurisdiction. Asking for a friend of course.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11957 seconds with 10 queries