40-70 BN Black powder cartridge question.

Straitshot · September 7, 2011, 01:44 PM

I have a 40-70 Sharps bottle neck that I reload for. The cases are made from 45-70 brass necked down to 40 cal. After forming the brass with the forming die I fire form them and then reload them without resizing. My problem is that the bullits are not tight enough in the case and will fall out. This is ok I guess if you are bench shooting where every move is calculated, but it is not okay in hunting situations when you are trying to keep your eyes on the quarry instead of your rounds. I know they have 40 cal neck sizing dies but are they for 40 straight or bottle neck, or does the same die work for both, and is that the way to go?

I am not for sure if this post should be here or in the reloading forum. If it is in the wrong place I do apologize.

Thanks, Louis

Magnum Wheel Man · September 7, 2011, 02:08 PM

my 40-65 is straight tapered & reformed from 45-70 cases ( I wonder how much if any difference there is between the two ??? ) my expander works nice with my lubrisized bullets... sounds like your expander is big, or your bullets ( if you're buying them ) are too small... how have your groups been with the loose in case bullets ??? reason I ask, is curious if they are also loose in your bore... if so, try finding a bigger diameter bullet... if they are fine in the bore, maube you can find a smaller expander button ???

what brand dies are you using ??? what bullet diameter ???

Ideal Tool · September 7, 2011, 05:03 PM

Hello, Straitshot. I too have a .40-70 BN. Best bet is to give the folks at Buffalo Arms a call. Thats where I got my dies (Redding). They have just about every black powder & modern caliber dies & cases..and can order from Huntington's if they don't.

Straitshot · September 8, 2011, 01:21 PM

They are CH4D dies. I have been buying the bullets and if my memory serves me correct they are Montana Precision swaged .408 diameter. I shoot black powder only and with iron sights, blade front and a hunting type rear tang. Not the best sight set up for bench shooting, but it is a 26" barrel Shiloh sharps I use for hunting on occasion. With my eyes once I get dialed in I can stay on a 6" pie plate at 100 yards. Without someone spotting for me I have difficulty finding the target out at 200 yards. I usually shoot alone. I haven't shot the gun all that much.

Jim Watson · September 8, 2011, 01:44 PM

Does your forming die set include a regular sizing die?
I think you should just bite the bullet and full length size hunting ammo.
I also think you should look at larger bullets; at least .409" for your nominal .408" barrel. I am shooting .411" bullets in a Browning BPCR .40-65 because they fit the throat better, even though the groove diameter is listed at .408" (but is probably .409".)
I like Montana Bullet Works bullets better than Montana Precision Swaging.
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_40_caliber.html

I am going to give finger seating a try. If it gives equal accuracy, it will save work on the loading. But then I am strictly a target shooter.

Lots of expertise on the Shiloh board:
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php

There are three different .45-70 Bottlenecks. Which is yours?
The original, which is on a 2.4" case and would have to be made out of .45-90 brass.
Then two versions at 2.1" for the convenience and economy of .45-70 brass:
One with the original neck length and the shoulder set back. Sometimes known as the .40-70 2.1" Government
The other with the original shoulder placement and a shorter neck. Sometimes known as the .40-70 2.1" C Sharps.

Straitshot · September 8, 2011, 09:45 PM

It reads .40 2-1/10 on the barrel. I did not realize there were three different 40-70 Bottle Neck cartridges. When I ordered the dies I read to them what was written on the barrel and they sent me the dies accordingly. I bought the gun used about three or four years ago and if I remember correctly the individual I bought it from told me that it used necked down 45-70 brass. The gun has the Shiloh reciever and the C Sharps barrel that has "Old Reliable" written on it. I believe I seat the bullets to where they just touch the riflings when the cartridge is chambered.

I recently bought a Lyman 400 gr. bullet mold that I believe is .410 and a .409 sizing die with the thought of casting my own bullets. I have cast for my 45-70 in the past and thought I might do the same for the 40-70. I have also wondered if the .408 bullets are a bit undersized.

Jim Watson · September 8, 2011, 10:38 PM

Ok, sounds like you are set up with appropriate dies and brass for your barrel.

If I were casting for it, I would pan lube and shoot the bullets as cast.
I am buying .40 bullets but that is what I did with my .38-55.

rr2241tx · September 9, 2011, 01:11 PM

I have one of those. My dies are RCBS. The tag on the end of the box says .40-70 2.1 Sharps. I have a .409 swage but shoot .410 as cast in 30:1 with a tablet backer wad and 70 grains volume of Pyrodex RS. I just barely take the bell out of the neck when I seat the bullet just deep enough to leave the top grease ring as a cannelure. For target shooting, I breech seat and do not resize the cases. Man, it is a good thing I don't depend on my photography skills to eat.

Straitshot · September 9, 2011, 06:08 PM

This is the 40-70 sharps saddle rifle I have been talking about. I have a diferent rear sight for it now though, a vernier hunting type.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

September 7, 2011, 01:44 PM	#1
Straitshot Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Location: West Texas Posts: 199	40-70 BN Black powder cartridge question. I have a 40-70 Sharps bottle neck that I reload for. The cases are made from 45-70 brass necked down to 40 cal. After forming the brass with the forming die I fire form them and then reload them without resizing. My problem is that the bullits are not tight enough in the case and will fall out. This is ok I guess if you are bench shooting where every move is calculated, but it is not okay in hunting situations when you are trying to keep your eyes on the quarry instead of your rounds. I know they have 40 cal neck sizing dies but are they for 40 straight or bottle neck, or does the same die work for both, and is that the way to go? I am not for sure if this post should be here or in the reloading forum. If it is in the wrong place I do apologize. Thanks, Louis

September 7, 2011, 02:08 PM	#2
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my 40-65 is straight tapered & reformed from 45-70 cases ( I wonder how much if any difference there is between the two ??? ) my expander works nice with my lubrisized bullets... sounds like your expander is big, or your bullets ( if you're buying them ) are too small... how have your groups been with the loose in case bullets ??? reason I ask, is curious if they are also loose in your bore... if so, try finding a bigger diameter bullet... if they are fine in the bore, maube you can find a smaller expander button ??? what brand dies are you using ??? what bullet diameter ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; September 7, 2011 at 02:19 PM.

September 8, 2011, 01:44 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Does your forming die set include a regular sizing die? I think you should just bite the bullet and full length size hunting ammo. I also think you should look at larger bullets; at least .409" for your nominal .408" barrel. I am shooting .411" bullets in a Browning BPCR .40-65 because they fit the throat better, even though the groove diameter is listed at .408" (but is probably .409".) I like Montana Bullet Works bullets better than Montana Precision Swaging. http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_40_caliber.html I am going to give finger seating a try. If it gives equal accuracy, it will save work on the loading. But then I am strictly a target shooter. Lots of expertise on the Shiloh board: http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php There are three different .45-70 Bottlenecks. Which is yours? The original, which is on a 2.4" case and would have to be made out of .45-90 brass. Then two versions at 2.1" for the convenience and economy of .45-70 brass: One with the original neck length and the shoulder set back. Sometimes known as the .40-70 2.1" Government The other with the original shoulder placement and a shorter neck. Sometimes known as the .40-70 2.1" C Sharps. Last edited by Jim Watson; September 8, 2011 at 01:55 PM.

September 8, 2011, 09:45 PM	#6
Straitshot Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Location: West Texas Posts: 199	Which 40-70? It reads .40 2-1/10 on the barrel. I did not realize there were three different 40-70 Bottle Neck cartridges. When I ordered the dies I read to them what was written on the barrel and they sent me the dies accordingly. I bought the gun used about three or four years ago and if I remember correctly the individual I bought it from told me that it used necked down 45-70 brass. The gun has the Shiloh reciever and the C Sharps barrel that has "Old Reliable" written on it. I believe I seat the bullets to where they just touch the riflings when the cartridge is chambered. I recently bought a Lyman 400 gr. bullet mold that I believe is .410 and a .409 sizing die with the thought of casting my own bullets. I have cast for my 45-70 in the past and thought I might do the same for the 40-70. I have also wondered if the .408 bullets are a bit undersized.

September 9, 2011, 06:08 PM	#9
Straitshot Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Location: West Texas Posts: 199	My sharps rifle This is the 40-70 sharps saddle rifle I have been talking about. I have a diferent rear sight for it now though, a vernier hunting type. [IMG][/IMG]

September 7, 2011, 05:03 PM	#3
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, Straitshot. I too have a .40-70 BN. Best bet is to give the folks at Buffalo Arms a call. Thats where I got my dies (Redding). They have just about every black powder & modern caliber dies & cases..and can order from Huntington's if they don't.

September 8, 2011, 01:21 PM	#4
Straitshot Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Location: West Texas Posts: 199	They are CH4D dies. I have been buying the bullets and if my memory serves me correct they are Montana Precision swaged .408 diameter. I shoot black powder only and with iron sights, blade front and a hunting type rear tang. Not the best sight set up for bench shooting, but it is a 26" barrel Shiloh sharps I use for hunting on occasion. With my eyes once I get dialed in I can stay on a 6" pie plate at 100 yards. Without someone spotting for me I have difficulty finding the target out at 200 yards. I usually shoot alone. I haven't shot the gun all that much.

September 8, 2011, 10:38 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Ok, sounds like you are set up with appropriate dies and brass for your barrel. If I were casting for it, I would pan lube and shoot the bullets as cast. I am buying .40 bullets but that is what I did with my .38-55.