Shooting OLD doubles...

Sarge · September 5, 2011, 09:57 PM

You have to understand I grew up in a time where old twist-barrel doubles could be be had for a good day's wages in the hay field. We were buying them at 14-15 and despite the admonitions of our fathers and uncles, shooting modern shells in them. I've seen a few come uncorked and even have an old scar over my right ear where a hammer came off & bit me.

While you never get over the urge to shoot old doubles, you can at least learn from your mistakes. I was given an old double a while back, not a makers mark on it anywhere; just some odd scratching that passed for engraving. Barrels looked like Damascus, but then I have seen fake Damascus barrels too. It was at first stuck shut, but we finally got it open. It had a long set of tubes on it and the doves are flying high, so it was inevitable I was going to try a couple of light field loads in it. The forend was missing, which should have told me something. Forend iron was present.

Not being a complete fool, I held it WAY out at arm's length around a tree and tripped the right barrel... big cloud of dust down the dry field, about 30 yards out. Hmmm... Left barrel fired but sounded funny- and the forend iron departed with vigor...

No idiots were harmed in the making of this article. It'd been a different story if I'd have wrapped my fingers around the barrels, prior to the test drive. Listen to your elders, boys. Don't shoot them modern shells in ancient doubles.

Well at least I don't jump out of haylofts anymore

MJ45 · September 5, 2011, 10:30 PM

WOW, glad i didn't see that back in 1972, my dad let shoot his old twist barreled double with "short brass". i think that was a trap load or something light anyway. well later, after several boxes of shells we heard we should retire her to the wall. what shame, it was a sweet shooting piece.

John L. Smith · September 6, 2011, 01:03 PM

I too grew up with the old doubles. I have an old Eclipes, probably made in the 1890,s with laminated steel barrels. The old girl hasn't been fired in 40 years. Got it down last year, got it all cleaned up. As soon as my ship comes in I will buy a set of 20 ga. tubes for her.

Sarge · September 6, 2011, 01:11 PM

I've got an OLD Elgin with fluid steel barrels, (basically a rebranded Crescent) another gift from one of my brothers, that I shoot regularly. It was cut back to 18 1/2" decades ago and had no front sight when I got it. I've since mounted one and got lucky because it centers its patterns on it with either barrel. Stock finally cracked around the lock plates which is a shame, becuase it is wicked for jump-shooting quail.

Dave McC · September 6, 2011, 02:10 PM

Thanks for posting this. It might just save a life....

Sarge · September 6, 2011, 02:20 PM

You're welcome Dave. That's exactly why I posted it.

Hawg · September 6, 2011, 02:25 PM

I grew up shooting those guns too. No telling how many 2 3/4 smokeless loads I put down damascus barrels. They're still shootable but not with modern ammo. First off most are 2 1/2 inch chambers. Firing 2 3/4 shells in them opens up the crimp over the forcing cone raising pressure dramatically. I cut modern shells off right behind the crimp which gives me a little less than 2 1/2 inches. I replace the plastic shot cup and wad with fiber wads and cardboard cards. I replace the powder with black or a sub then roll crimp them. If the gun has fluid steel barrels it will be safe to shoot with light smokeless loads. Damascus will be black powder only and only after being checked out by a qualified gunsmith.

James K · September 6, 2011, 02:35 PM

I recommend against shooting any Damascus barrel shotgun for two reasons. The way those barrels were made, even if if they were strong enough at the time, there are all kinds of cracks and crevices into which fouling, corrosive primer salt and other stuff has gotten over the years and eaten away the metal from the inside. I once sectioned a barrel that looked good from the outside and with a nice shiny bore. Inside the metal, it looked like orange lace. That gun would have blown on the first shot, even with black powder.

The other reason is the powder. The total pressure of modern smokeless powder shells is not a tremendous amount more than the pressure of the old black powder shells. But the pressure curve is different. Where black powder burns pretty much all at once, and the pressure is kept in the thick part of the barrel, progressive burning smokeless powder keeps the pressure high further out, meaning where the barrels get thin and, of course, just where the shooter holds his off hand.

(Yes, I have personally known guys who lost fingers and have seen the remains of several blown guns, so this is not "book larnin".)

Jim

eastbank · September 6, 2011, 03:38 PM

i like to shoot black powder, but wanted a safe shotgun, well a well used early 12ga savage 311 double barrel came up at auction and was bought for 90.00, i load 70-80grs fff and 1-1/8 oz. #6 shot on a old mec 650 in plastic picked up shells and only load them once. i have killed all kinds of small game over the years with it. eastbank.

oneounceload · September 6, 2011, 03:51 PM

And yet there are groups like The Vintagers, who shoot old guns all the time, even with Damascus or twist steel barrels and have all of their fingers and eyes. Most certainly, a thorough exam by a well-versed smith is in order with the use of pressure-appropriate loads being next if passed.

A large modicum of common sense is involved and of course an old gun that even remotely looks suspect get to be a wall hanger; but let's not just assume all old guns are past their prime. They may not be able to go on and be used for Olympic practice and competition, but many are used - safely and successfully - every year at hunting and clays

Shotgun693 · September 6, 2011, 06:22 PM

Shoot'm with the shells they were made for and they'll be fine. Black Powder, or a BP substitute is the answer.
Now having said that you'd be wise to let a gunsmith who works on older shotguns check it over. I've seen Cowboy Shooters using guns over 100 years old with no problems but only with BP shells.

September 5, 2011, 09:57 PM	#1
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Shooting OLD doubles... You have to understand I grew up in a time where old twist-barrel doubles could be be had for a good day's wages in the hay field. We were buying them at 14-15 and despite the admonitions of our fathers and uncles, shooting modern shells in them. I've seen a few come uncorked and even have an old scar over my right ear where a hammer came off & bit me. While you never get over the urge to shoot old doubles, you can at least learn from your mistakes. I was given an old double a while back, not a makers mark on it anywhere; just some odd scratching that passed for engraving. Barrels looked like Damascus, but then I have seen fake Damascus barrels too. It was at first stuck shut, but we finally got it open. It had a long set of tubes on it and the doves are flying high, so it was inevitable I was going to try a couple of light field loads in it. The forend was missing, which should have told me something. Forend iron was present. Not being a complete fool, I held it WAY out at arm's length around a tree and tripped the right barrel... big cloud of dust down the dry field, about 30 yards out. Hmmm... Left barrel fired but sounded funny- and the forend iron departed with vigor... No idiots were harmed in the making of this article. It'd been a different story if I'd have wrapped my fingers around the barrels, prior to the test drive. Listen to your elders, boys. Don't shoot them modern shells in ancient doubles. Well at least I don't jump out of haylofts anymore __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

September 6, 2011, 01:11 PM	#4
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I've got an OLD Elgin with fluid steel barrels, (basically a rebranded Crescent) another gift from one of my brothers, that I shoot regularly. It was cut back to 18 1/2" decades ago and had no front sight when I got it. I've since mounted one and got lucky because it centers its patterns on it with either barrel. Stock finally cracked around the lock plates which is a shame, becuase it is wicked for jump-shooting quail. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. Last edited by Sarge; September 6, 2011 at 01:24 PM. Reason: sp

September 5, 2011, 10:30 PM	#2
MJ45 Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Midwest Posts: 51	WOW, glad i didn't see that back in 1972, my dad let shoot his old twist barreled double with "short brass". i think that was a trap load or something light anyway. well later, after several boxes of shells we heard we should retire her to the wall. what shame, it was a sweet shooting piece.

September 6, 2011, 01:03 PM	#3
John L. Smith Member Join Date: March 3, 2010 Posts: 40	I too grew up with the old doubles. I have an old Eclipes, probably made in the 1890,s with laminated steel barrels. The old girl hasn't been fired in 40 years. Got it down last year, got it all cleaned up. As soon as my ship comes in I will buy a set of 20 ga. tubes for her.

September 6, 2011, 02:10 PM	#5
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks for posting this. It might just save a life....

September 6, 2011, 02:20 PM	#6
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	You're welcome Dave. That's exactly why I posted it. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

September 6, 2011, 02:25 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I grew up shooting those guns too. No telling how many 2 3/4 smokeless loads I put down damascus barrels. They're still shootable but not with modern ammo. First off most are 2 1/2 inch chambers. Firing 2 3/4 shells in them opens up the crimp over the forcing cone raising pressure dramatically. I cut modern shells off right behind the crimp which gives me a little less than 2 1/2 inches. I replace the plastic shot cup and wad with fiber wads and cardboard cards. I replace the powder with black or a sub then roll crimp them. If the gun has fluid steel barrels it will be safe to shoot with light smokeless loads. Damascus will be black powder only and only after being checked out by a qualified gunsmith.

September 6, 2011, 02:35 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I recommend against shooting any Damascus barrel shotgun for two reasons. The way those barrels were made, even if if they were strong enough at the time, there are all kinds of cracks and crevices into which fouling, corrosive primer salt and other stuff has gotten over the years and eaten away the metal from the inside. I once sectioned a barrel that looked good from the outside and with a nice shiny bore. Inside the metal, it looked like orange lace. That gun would have blown on the first shot, even with black powder. The other reason is the powder. The total pressure of modern smokeless powder shells is not a tremendous amount more than the pressure of the old black powder shells. But the pressure curve is different. Where black powder burns pretty much all at once, and the pressure is kept in the thick part of the barrel, progressive burning smokeless powder keeps the pressure high further out, meaning where the barrels get thin and, of course, just where the shooter holds his off hand. (Yes, I have personally known guys who lost fingers and have seen the remains of several blown guns, so this is not "book larnin".) Jim

September 6, 2011, 03:38 PM	#9
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i like to shoot black powder, but wanted a safe shotgun, well a well used early 12ga savage 311 double barrel came up at auction and was bought for 90.00, i load 70-80grs fff and 1-1/8 oz. #6 shot on a old mec 650 in plastic picked up shells and only load them once. i have killed all kinds of small game over the years with it. eastbank.

September 6, 2011, 03:51 PM	#10
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	And yet there are groups like The Vintagers, who shoot old guns all the time, even with Damascus or twist steel barrels and have all of their fingers and eyes. Most certainly, a thorough exam by a well-versed smith is in order with the use of pressure-appropriate loads being next if passed. A large modicum of common sense is involved and of course an old gun that even remotely looks suspect get to be a wall hanger; but let's not just assume all old guns are past their prime. They may not be able to go on and be used for Olympic practice and competition, but many are used - safely and successfully - every year at hunting and clays

September 6, 2011, 06:22 PM	#11
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	Shoot'm with the shells they were made for and they'll be fine. Black Powder, or a BP substitute is the answer. Now having said that you'd be wise to let a gunsmith who works on older shotguns check it over. I've seen Cowboy Shooters using guns over 100 years old with no problems but only with BP shells.