.45 WWB & .45 AE, Reverse Engineer?

Cascade1911 · March 19, 2011, 07:23 AM

I'm looking for info on Winchester white box and Federal American Eagle .45 auto 230 FMJ RN. Any data (powder type and charge, velocity, etc.) would be appreciated.

Thanks all

zplinker · March 19, 2011, 09:37 AM

bullet Pow. wt. fps st. dev.

225 RN BE 4.9 841 3

This has been a good load to duplicate factory 'hardball' ammo; bullet was cast, w-w brass, WLP primer. Any change of components will vary the result, but you will be in the ball park.

Sevens · March 19, 2011, 12:08 PM

If you are looking to duplicate the performance or feel of a factory load, that's one thing. If you are looking for the actual load data and powder choice for a factory load, that's proprietary information that the ammo companies will likely not divulge.

They often use large lots of powder that you can't even get and they adjust the charge weight often to reflect the ever evolving burn rate of the powder they use. They build loads to satisfy a pressure goal -- they do not build ammo to a set charge powder and charge weight.

Cascade1911 · March 19, 2011, 12:17 PM

Don't know that I want to duplicate the load. More interested in where it is in relation to my hand loads.

I find it interesting that Federal is claiming 890 fps for the AE while CCI and Winchester are talking velocity in the 830's. What are you all clocking? Don't have a chronograph myself.

overkill0084 · March 19, 2011, 12:37 PM

Sounds like it's close to time for a chronograph.

I have one and I don't use it much. I am more worried about function and accuracy. Velocity, nice to know, but not necessary most of the time.

WESHOOT2 · March 20, 2011, 05:03 AM

It's what I can prove, repeatedly, during testing, that matters.

"Unless you test you guess"

FrankenMauser · March 20, 2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Federal is claiming 890 fps for the AE while CCI and Winchester are talking velocity in the 830's.

50-60 fps isn't much of a difference. Just the change in bullets could produce that discrepancy (not to mention, CCI is using different cases and primers). And... their test weapon/barrel could account for the difference, as well.

You'll never know where your loads stand, until you shoot some across a chronograph. (Or into one, if you go old school.)

PawPaw · March 20, 2011, 03:43 PM

Quote:

You'll never know where your loads stand, until you shoot some across a chronograph. (Or into one, if you go old school.)

There are only two types of chronograph owners. Those who have shot their chronograph, and those who will shoot their chronograph.

Cascade1911 · March 21, 2011, 05:52 AM

Yeah, Chrony time, I ordered the F-1 from Wally World. Figured I'd see what I like and don't like and then move up after I shoot this one.

FrankenMauser · March 21, 2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

There are only two types of chronograph owners. Those who have shot their chronograph, and those who will shoot their chronograph

I believe that to be true.

...but I was referring to an old pendulum-style chronograph.

(I know they're generally referred to with a different term, but can't remember it.)

**Unclenick** · March 21, 2011, 01:43 PM

It's a ballistic pendulum. It reads out in degrees of swing. You use the cosine of that angle with the length of the pendulum to show how high the pendulum mass+bullet mass was raised, and from that you calculate the momentum required to move it that high against gravity. You then divide the that momentum by the mass of the bullet alone, and you arrive at your deduced velocity.

The term "chronograph" just literally means visual time drawing or graph or plot. The old Bashforth chronograph traced a line on chart paper on a constant speed drum while the projectile was passing between two breakwires, so you got a line on the paper whose length was proportional to elapsed time. At the breaking of a start wire, the Boulangé chronograph dropped a zinc rod that had been marked at its start position by a spring-loaded edged striker, then struck it again when the second wire broke. The space between the marks was then proportional to the exponent of elapsed time. The marks constituted another form of graphical representation of time. Needless to say, both systems were a pain to calibrate and responded slowly, so the wires had to be pretty far apart. The results were not precise, so many firings had to be averaged to get a good result.

When digital electronic instruments appeared, displays went from graphics to numerical representations of time. This was more a ballistic chronometer (time meter) than a ballistic chronograph. Later, the electronics became sophisticated enough to directly calculate and display a speed from the time and screen spacing information. That is what today is sold as a "chronograph", but it would more accurately be referred to as a ballistic speedometer.

March 19, 2011, 07:23 AM	#1
Cascade1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Dutchess County, NY Posts: 450	.45 WWB & .45 AE, Reverse Engineer? I'm looking for info on Winchester white box and Federal American Eagle .45 auto 230 FMJ RN. Any data (powder type and charge, velocity, etc.) would be appreciated. Thanks all

March 19, 2011, 09:37 AM	#2
zplinker Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2011 Location: way out here Posts: 262	230 RN Data bullet Pow. wt. fps st. dev. 225 RN BE 4.9 841 3 This has been a good load to duplicate factory 'hardball' ammo; bullet was cast, w-w brass, WLP primer. Any change of components will vary the result, but you will be in the ball park.

March 19, 2011, 12:08 PM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	If you are looking to duplicate the performance or feel of a factory load, that's one thing. If you are looking for the actual load data and powder choice for a factory load, that's proprietary information that the ammo companies will likely not divulge. They often use large lots of powder that you can't even get and they adjust the charge weight often to reflect the ever evolving burn rate of the powder they use. They build loads to satisfy a pressure goal -- they do not build ammo to a set charge powder and charge weight. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

March 19, 2011, 12:37 PM	#5
overkill0084 Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2010 Location: Northern, UT Posts: 1,162	Sounds like it's close to time for a chronograph. I have one and I don't use it much. I am more worried about function and accuracy. Velocity, nice to know, but not necessary most of the time. __________________ Cheers, Greg “At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.” — P.J. O’Rourke

March 20, 2011, 05:03 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I can claim anything It's what I can prove, repeatedly, during testing, that matters. "Unless you test you guess" __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 19, 2011, 12:17 PM	#4
Cascade1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Dutchess County, NY Posts: 450	Don't know that I want to duplicate the load. More interested in where it is in relation to my hand loads. I find it interesting that Federal is claiming 890 fps for the AE while CCI and Winchester are talking velocity in the 830's. What are you all clocking? Don't have a chronograph myself.

March 21, 2011, 05:52 AM	#9
Cascade1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Dutchess County, NY Posts: 450	Yeah, Chrony time, I ordered the F-1 from Wally World. Figured I'd see what I like and don't like and then move up after I shoot this one.

March 21, 2011, 01:43 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It's a ballistic pendulum. It reads out in degrees of swing. You use the cosine of that angle with the length of the pendulum to show how high the pendulum mass+bullet mass was raised, and from that you calculate the momentum required to move it that high against gravity. You then divide the that momentum by the mass of the bullet alone, and you arrive at your deduced velocity. The term "chronograph" just literally means visual time drawing or graph or plot. The old Bashforth chronograph traced a line on chart paper on a constant speed drum while the projectile was passing between two breakwires, so you got a line on the paper whose length was proportional to elapsed time. At the breaking of a start wire, the Boulangé chronograph dropped a zinc rod that had been marked at its start position by a spring-loaded edged striker, then struck it again when the second wire broke. The space between the marks was then proportional to the exponent of elapsed time. The marks constituted another form of graphical representation of time. Needless to say, both systems were a pain to calibrate and responded slowly, so the wires had to be pretty far apart. The results were not precise, so many firings had to be averaged to get a good result. When digital electronic instruments appeared, displays went from graphics to numerical representations of time. This was more a ballistic chronometer (time meter) than a ballistic chronograph. Later, the electronics became sophisticated enough to directly calculate and display a speed from the time and screen spacing information. That is what today is sold as a "chronograph", but it would more accurately be referred to as a ballistic speedometer. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 21, 2011 at 01:53 PM. Reason: typo fixes