The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 15, 2018, 04:06 PM   #1
Stormson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2014
Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA.
Posts: 193
Remmi conversion, shout out to gasmandave and couple questions

Crazy week or I would have posted this sooner..

First serious props to gasmandave! Though I havent had the chance to interact with him much on the forums, gotta say he is a GREAT guy to do business with! On top of an awesome price I was amazed at how fast it reached my mailbox... if you have the chance to buy anything from him, I highly suggest you do!

My questions about it are, first, I have the same style conversion for my 1860, and its only 5 rounds but has the extra bolt stops so that you can actually CARRY all 5. The remmi however has 6 rounds, but no extra stops AND not even cylinder notches that the BP cylinder has... in effect making it a 5 shot anyway. I really dont understand why they wouldnt have included one or the other as it pretty much defeats the whole idea of a 6rnd cylinder not to. So what, if anything, can I safely do about it? Is filing a safety notch an option? Hammer between rims maybe (though that seems a little chancey). Second, while I would never run anything much stronger then standard winchester cowboy ammo in the 60, the remmi DOES seem like it might stand up to limited use of slightly stronger stuff (not talking the newest, hotest, leigh defense or corbon here!), so how far would you guys be willing to push a post CNC (2015) Pietta steel frame?? Thinking of once or twice a year practice with potant stuff, and possible use only as defense or hunting.. Still coyboy loads or lighter for everyday.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20180613_191815-819x461.jpg (86.7 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_194132-819x461.jpg (87.5 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_191922-460x818.jpg (69.9 KB, 40 views)
Stormson is offline  
Old June 15, 2018, 05:57 PM   #2
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,175
I don't see why you couldn't file a notch but I don't have a conversion cylinder to look at. I carry 1873's with the hammer between cartridges like the old timers told me to when I was a kid but that might not work with modern .45 Colt rims. As for the strength of the frame, it is softer than modern gun steel and I wouldn't be comfortable shooting anything but bp equivalent loads. The cylinder isn't an issue but the frame is.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 15, 2018, 07:40 PM   #3
Stormson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2014
Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA.
Posts: 193
Hawg,

Yeah.. I have no idea what I was thinking... there ARE no rims in the conversion.. shaking my head.. Told ya its been a crazy week.. damn things are covered by the backplate lol

Yeah.. I know its softer stuff... but I dont think its gonna blow up with any kind of 'normal' stuff? Dont get me wrong here.. Im talking about probably never needing it under stress, only practicing with it once or twice a year tops, to stay sharp, and mostly using or practicing with the approved 800fps or less... I guess what Im asking is, Kirst says 1000fps, but this aint no kirst of course and Howells, r&d, taylors etc says 800... but would jumping up a couple or three hundred outa spec just once in a great blue moon really tear the gun up that bad?
Stormson is offline  
Old June 15, 2018, 09:18 PM   #4
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
Looks good but I'll never understand the urge to go out and buy a percussion revolver only to slap a conversion cylinder in it, of a design not in use during the old west. It's not historically accurate and its not interesting. There are replicas of the Remington 1875 available, did you know that?

Last edited by Model12Win; June 15, 2018 at 09:24 PM.
Model12Win is offline  
Old June 15, 2018, 10:16 PM   #5
Bishop Creek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Posts: 564
Actually, the Howell version is a very close copy of the original .38 rim fire conversion cylinder produced by Remington in the early 1870s. The only difference is the Howell's version has firing pins instead of cut outs for the rim fire hammer. That said, I wouldn't shoot anything more powerful than Cowboy loads out of one.
Bishop Creek is offline  
Old June 15, 2018, 10:16 PM   #6
45 Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2013
Posts: 656
Dang!!!! I guess I'll have to sell mine . . . . and the thing is, my Dragoons are the most accurate revolvers I've ever owned!! DANG IT !!!!!


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Oh yeah, I don't believe any maker sells a 250gr. 45C round that exceeds 1000 fps (as far as with the Kirst cylinder) as a tier 1 offering ("normal" on the shelf ammo). If in doubt, always check. Obviously, you shouldn't use any +p ammo nor should you assemble any ammo exceeding safe limits.

Last edited by 45 Dragoon; June 15, 2018 at 10:30 PM.
45 Dragoon is offline  
Old June 16, 2018, 01:00 AM   #7
Stormson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2014
Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA.
Posts: 193
Quote:
Looks good but I'll never understand the urge to go out and buy a percussion revolver only to slap a conversion cylinder in it, of a design not in use during the old west. It's not historically accurate and its not interesting. There are replicas of the Remington 1875 available, did you know that?
During the oppression we lived under, during the years of communist rule (those of Hussein Obama and Comrade Clinton) people like me found it hard to do everyday things like eat, pay for meds, buy ammo... As a result I bought my very own first BP revolver. A 5.5" Pieatta Remmi.. Brand new in 2015. I researched a HELL of a lot, cos I had some experience with ASM colts that where popular back in the late 80s and early 90s... Saw a brass frame that actually CRACKED on one and it sort of turned me off for a long time.. until.. well, ammo was stupid high.

I didnt BUY it to "turn around and slap a conversion" it... I bought it to keep shooting while our nation was under duress and possibly facing one hell of a lot MORE duress.

Funny thing happened.. I found out that I absolutely LOVED well made BP revolvers! They not only kept me shooting for a LOT less money at the time, but they also gave me FREEDOM. I was no longer confined by what someone ELSE thought was my optimal load. I no longer had to bow to the restrictions placed upon me by commercial ammo companies.. Hell I was FREE again! I could load down to shooting rats out of the trash or up to deer at VERY close range in the garden.

I even bought a snub nosed 1860 and carried it as my EDC for awhile ( I live in the most rural area east of the Rockies).

But both DID have some drawbacks... Like the fact that water exists in the world. Like the fact that I LIKE rivers. Like the fact God INSISTS on making it rain. And like the fact that I actually ENJOY the freedom of choices when I have a nation that (finally again) allows me to have them.

I still have and use those BP cylinders, but would like the freedom to choose as much as safety will allow... Did you know that?

Last edited by Stormson; June 16, 2018 at 01:09 AM.
Stormson is offline  
Old June 16, 2018, 02:20 AM   #8
drobs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2015
Location: South Central MO / Africa
Posts: 1,111
A discussion on this exact topic here:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/ind...ic=6917.0;wap2

Quoting Prospector bottom of page 4:

"I called Taylor's today and got the straight scoop from them. They changed from having the safety notches on the back plate for the hammer and started machining the small openings at the back of each chamber for two reasons: Liability, and fabrication / east of machining. The original back plates were cast, and it was relatively easy to cast the back plates with the hammer safety notches in them. The tech I talked to said that Taylor's originally put those hammer safety slots in the back plates mostly for looks and not to be used as an actual safety device. From the beginning, they advised people to leave one chamber empty and rest the hammer on that empty chamber. They later became concerned about liability because they said that if a person decided to rely on the hammer safety notches, it was easy for the hammer to bounce out of these safety notches if the gun was dropped or if the hammer was snagged on something (Does that sound familiar, Johnnie?). Also, the cast back plates looked rough, as cast parts often do. They decided that for both these reasons, they would switch from casting these parts to machining them, and leave off the hammer safety notches. As an alternative, they came up with the witness holes for each chamber, and advising people to load only 5 and leave the hammer on the empty chamber."



The Howell 5 shot conversion cylinder has additional locking notches between the chambers:

"The 5 shot cylinder is an excellent choice since you should only load 5 shots in a 6 chamber cylinder, letting the hammer down on an empty chamber. The 5 shot conversion cylinder has 10 cylinder stop notches. Five of these notches are set between the chambers and are designed to be used to lock the cylinder out of battery and allow you to safely lower the hammer fully down between the loaded chambers."
http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/howe...al5shotlc.aspx
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by drobs; June 16, 2018 at 02:44 AM.
drobs is offline  
Old June 16, 2018, 08:23 AM   #9
Stormson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2014
Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA.
Posts: 193
Thanks drobs. Yeah I guess that makes sense as the backplate does seem a LITLE thin for it... sure wish they had put the extra bolt stops though, as they work VERY well in the 5 shot 60... I wonder though if there is enough meat between the chambers for that? And if so I wonder what such a thing would cost.. Has anyone heard of this being done?
Stormson is offline  
Old June 16, 2018, 09:35 AM   #10
drobs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2015
Location: South Central MO / Africa
Posts: 1,111
Stormson,

That was my thought as well. In that same thread I believe it states Howell sold this 6 shot cylinder and patent for the angled chambers to Taylors. He then came up with the design for the 5 shot cylinder with the additional locking notches.

So the reason we can't get both 6 shots and the additional locking notched is result of those patents.

I wish we could get a more original looking conversion cylinder with a thin back plate at a reasonable price. I understand Either Howell or Kirst makes one but it's really pricey.

I have a Kirst Conversion cylinder for my Pietta 1858 (bought in 2001) and a Howell for my Pietta 1860 which came with the gun, bought used, on Gunbroker.

The GB Pietta 1860 came with the conversion cylinder only (C&B cylinder was missing). Got into a bidding war on it but still got everything for the price of the conversion cylinder.
__________________
NRA Life Member
drobs is offline  
Old June 16, 2018, 12:41 PM   #11
Stormson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2014
Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA.
Posts: 193
Drobs, my 5 shot 1860 with the additional notches also came from Taylors... But looking that their website they also sell this 6 shot remmi without.. so maybe he sold both patents to them?

I am going to have to, at some point, have apart milled for a .357 that seems to be really unique. I think when I get the money to do that Im going to take this conversion along with me and see how much it would cost to either mill additional stops or even just a single safety notch. Shrugs.. cant hurt to look into it.

Certainly nothing wrong with loading 5 for now, just seemed interesting that they didnt use some way of including all 6. Heck for the price that Dave gave me on it, it would still be cool even if it only held TWO lol.

But yeah, both the liability and the patent issues both make sense as to why... and my other one is 5 shot anyway, so at least that keeps my round count even lol
Stormson is offline  
Old June 17, 2018, 10:06 PM   #12
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,175
45 dragoon the dragoon is a hella lot heavier design than the 58 Remington.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 18, 2018, 11:20 PM   #13
Driftwood Johnson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2014
Location: Land of the Pilgrims
Posts: 2,032
Howdy

A few thoughts.

In February of 1868 Remington signed a contract with Smith and Wesson to convert 4,574 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers (the New Model Army, often known as the 1858 Remington because of the patent date) to cartridges. The backstory is that S&W still controlled the rights to the Rollin White patent for bored through cylinders for cartridges, so S&W had to agree in order for the work to be done. The contract stipulated Remington would do the work, and S&W would inspect the final products. S&W charged $1.00 per revolver as their fee for allowing Remington to do the conversions. Most of these revolvers were converted from six shot C&B cylinders to five shot 46 Rimfire cartridges.

Here is a photo of one.






Individual gunsmiths had been doing conversions of Remington C&B revolvers for some time, and because they were very small operations, S&W was not able to track them down for patent infringement.

Here is a photo of a Remington converted for cartridges by an independent gunsmith.




Quote:
Looks good but I'll never understand the urge to go out and buy a percussion revolver only to slap a conversion cylinder in it, of a design not in use during the old west. It's not historically accurate and its not interesting. There are replicas of the Remington 1875 available, did you know that?
A valid point. In my own case I had bought my EuroArms Remington so long ago (1975) that when I decided to buy a cartridge conversion cylinder for it about ten years ago it was like I was getting a new cartridge revolver for $150 or so, if I remember correctly what I paid for the cylinder.

A few months later I came across a used Stainless Uberti Remington that came with a 45 Colt conversion cylinder for about the price of a new cartridge revolver. So it was a no brainer that I would grab that Remmie too. (Need two pistols to compete in CAS.)

Here is my brace of cartridge conversion Remmies. Yup, the stainless Uberti came with a blued conversion cylinder. I have no problem with that.




-----------------------


Regarding the strength of cylinders and frames: It is not the frame that must withstand the pressure spike of a cartridge firing, it is the cylinder. True, many times you will see the top strap blown off a frame when the cylinder fails, but that is because pieces of the cylinder took the top strap with it. It is also true that sometimes a frame will stretch, or might even crack, but that is not from the pressure of a cartridge firing. That is from the concussion of many high powered rounds being fired and battering the frame. But generally speaking, it is the cylinder, not the frame, that is the pressure vessel in a revolver. If you don't blow up the cylinder, you most likely will not blow up the gun. As a caveat I will add that all the conversion cylinder manufacturers stress that their conversion cylinders should only be used in steel framed C&B revolvers, not revolvers with brass frames. With a brass frame one might well exceed the tensile strength of the brass, and the frame might stretch.



------------------------



Here is a photo of my old EuroArms Remmie with its Taylors six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinder.

A few comments. You will notice the cylinder cap does have the slots between firing pins to drop the hammer nose into so the cylinder can be loaded with six shots. Unfortunately, the slots are not wide enough, the nose of the hammer will not drop into them. Yes, I could have shaved down the hammer nose a little bit, but I only ever load a single action revolver with five shots anyway. You will notice that one of the firing pins is silver colored, rather than blued. That is so the shooter can keep track of which chamber is empty.

Yes, this is one of the original cylinders that Ken Howell made under contract for Taylors. Yes, the chambers do splay out less than 1/2 of one degree at the rear in order for the 45 Colt rims to not interfere with each other. That is the only way six 45 Colt chambers could be bored into a cylinder that will fit into a replica 1858 Remington without the rims bumping into each other. No, the slight angle does not affect accuracy at all, my conversion cylinder Remmies are the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers I own, more accurate than my Colts, Rugers, or Ubertis. I believe the precision of the dimensions of the chambers is the reason for that. The chambers on these cylinders are tighter than the chambers in any of my other 45 Colt revolvers. In fact, when reloading 45 Colt I always use one of these cylinders as a 'cartridge gauge'. If a crimped round will drop into the chambers of one of these cylinders, I know it will also drop into the chambers of my other 45 Colt revolvers.

Yes, when Ken Howell sold his patent for the angled chambers to Taylors, he was no longer able to make the six shot cylinders for the 45 Colt Remington. Taylors is currently contracting with someone else to make them.

I did not know the cylinder cap was cast, that is new information for me and I thank Drobs for that information. Yes, the cylinder cap does have a slightly 'pebbly' finish. I never thought about it too much, but that could well be indicative of a sand cast part. I should have realized the cap was sand cast because there are no telltale radii in the slots that would have been left behind if the slots had been milled.






Another interesting feature of my cylinders are the 'viewing windows' cut into the sides of the cylinder. They did not exist when I bought the cylinders. As purchased, the counterbores for the cartridge rims would accept 45 Colt rims, but they would not accept the slightly larger diameter (.520 vs .512) of Schofield rims. So I had a gunsmith friend open up the diameter of the counterbores to accept the Schofield rims. Before he opened up the counterbores, we realized there would be a paper thin amount of steel remaining between the larger counterbores and the outside diameter of the cylinder. So we decided to cut straight accross, eliminating the paper thin sliver of steel and thus creating convenient 'viewing windows, which help indicate where the empty chamber is. With the cap on, you can't tell unless you look down the barrel. I understand the cylinders Taylors is selling now also include the 'viewing windows', and I believe they will accept 45 Schofield rims. Perhaps they discovered what we discovered,





All of this gets me to my last point, regarding the strength of the 1858 Remington frame. I don't think the frame is particularly strong. The hole drilled in the frame where the loading ram pokes through makes the cross section of the frame pretty thin there. I think if the frame were to fail anywhere form repeated concussion, that is where it would crack. Right where the ram pokes through. Also, I discovered that unlike the 1873 Colt, the grip shape of the 1858 Remington is just different enough that full power loads are a little bit uncomfortable to shoot. I shoot 45 Colt Black Powder loads stuffed to the gills with FFg and a 250 grain bullet through my Colts all the time. But the grip shape of the Remington makes my hand smart a bit with those loads. That is why I usually shoot 45 Schofield ammo in my Remingtons. The Schofield case holds significantly less FFg than the 45 Colt round does, and I cap them with 200 grain bullets, rather than 250, which produces milder recoil which is friendlier to my old hands than full house 45 Colt BP loads.

Finally, regarding shooting more powerful Smokeless loads through a conversion cylinder:

I would not do it. My cylinders came with a specific disclaimer stating to only shoot them with Smokeless 'Cowboy' loads. Unfortunately, there is no SAAMI standard for what makes a 'Cowboy' load. And forget about trying to define loads by velocity. Velocity is not what blows up cylinders, pressure is what blows up cylinders. One can achieve X feet per second by various combinations of bullet weight and various charges of various Smokeless powder. But the actual pressure can vary widely. Without using sophisticated pressure equipment, the average reloader really has no idea how much pressure his loads are creating.

I am reasonably sure that these cylinders have been proofed for SAAMI Spec 45 Colt loads. 14,000 psi if I recall correctly. I would not push them beyond that.

Last edited by Driftwood Johnson; June 18, 2018 at 11:31 PM.
Driftwood Johnson is offline  
Old June 19, 2018, 12:47 AM   #14
ofitg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Posts: 102
Quote:
I am reasonably sure that these cylinders have been proofed for SAAMI Spec 45 Colt loads. 14,000 psi if I recall correctly. I would not push them beyond that.
Actually, the Kirst FAQ page specifies a maximum pressure of 12,000 PSI -

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/FAQs.pdf
ofitg is offline  
Old June 19, 2018, 12:51 PM   #15
rodwhaincamo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,246
I’m curious what difference there is between the standard percussion cylinders which can handle heavy loads (compared to Cowboy Action loads) to these that state to use Cowboy Action only stuff.

My Pietta Remington NMA has its more accurate charge of a weighed 33 grns (my measure is set at 30) of 3F Olde Eynsford BP and my 195 grn bullet. This isn’t a max charge but is likely close to 950 fps according to similar loads shot over a chronograph.
rodwhaincamo is offline  
Old June 19, 2018, 10:20 PM   #16
Stormson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2014
Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA.
Posts: 193
Wow! Driftwood knocks it out of the park AGAIN! Thank you for all the info, very interesting!

Truth is, as far as cartridges Ive only ever shot standard low pressure 250ge winchester lead out of my 1860 snub nose, and thats pretty much what Id be mostly shooting out of the remmi as well. Heck, if I can get myself set up for handloading then Ill probably add a few LOWER loads as well like the Schofield, the cowboy specials or even autorim... but always looking to maximize versatility, I was thinking how HIGH I could go as well. Understand though, even though I have no safe queens and all my guns are working guns we are talking about an almost NEVER used or needed scenario here... Like home defense, black bear or hog protection. Likewise, we're looking at once, maybe twice, a YEAR practicing with something like that and only a few rounds at that, just to stay acquainted with the high power stuff "in case of".

As ofitg points out, Kirst recommendations are QUITE a bit higher then Taylors. They even have a .45ACP cylinder that can be used with the 45colt backplate... Of course these ARNT Kirsts, and thats kinda whats throwing me here... Can Taylors REALLY be THAT much lower quality, or are they simply playing the the lawyer game of CYOA?
Stormson is offline  
Old June 19, 2018, 11:35 PM   #17
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Model12Win View Post
Looks good but I'll never understand the urge to go out and buy a percussion revolver only to slap a conversion cylinder in it, of a design not in use during the old west. It's not historically accurate and its not interesting. There are replicas of the Remington 1875 available, did you know that?
Few years ago I bought a Pietta 1858 NMA with an 8 inch barrel, my first percussion revolver. I liked it, I liked shooting it, but I hated the black powder mess and need for immediate cleaning once home. So, I bought the conversion cylinder and liked shooting it with that too. Depending on the mood, I swap between percussion and conversion cylinders.

Recently I decided I wanted to get the shorter 5.5" barrel and use that as conversion only. Cabela's had a sale for $220, I had a $100 gift card, so I got it for $120 with free shipping. When I opened the box, I saw it had a $50 percussion cylinder that came with it that I can use on the 8 inch, so I essentially bought that 5.5" NMA for $70 brand new and it's an excellent gun for home defense.
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
TruthTellers is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.30155 seconds with 11 queries