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Old June 4, 2018, 11:53 AM   #26
RC20
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There are no accidental shootings. The Term is ND

Negligent Discharge.

Personal rights preclude releasing his name. Wow.

This occurred with someone who obviously should be extremely well trained.

Certainly clears up why we have the issues we do with anyone who can buy a gun. Criminally ND and injured and killed people are all to common.
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Old June 4, 2018, 12:05 PM   #27
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There are no accidental shootings. The Term is ND

Negligent Discharge.

Personal rights preclude releasing his name. Wow.

This occurred with someone who obviously should be extremely well trained.

Certainly clears up why we have the issues we do with anyone who can buy a gun. Criminally ND and injured and killed people are all to common.
The notion that everyone who is law enforcement is well trained is frankly false. In my experience unless the officer is part of a response team such as SWAT or similar his weapons handling is often worse than what I can see at a shooting club. This is based off of 100+ hours of observing various officers in training events.

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Old June 4, 2018, 12:48 PM   #28
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Not because he accidentally shot someone. Not because he was doing dance moves in a bar and lost control of his weapon. But because of the unpardonable sin of embarrassing the FBI. And doing it VERY publicly.
Unless.... he is higher up on the totem pole. Like that FBI guy last year who got drunk and had his gun stolen by a hooker (and $60 lol). He was a very senior agent and somehow we never heard what happened to him.
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Old June 4, 2018, 01:19 PM   #29
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"Personal rights preclude releasing his name." That's a new one on me.
A few years ago here in NJ there was a major spill at one of the refineries. The workers hadn't followed the proper procedures, they were fired IMMEDIATELY. And their names made public. But of course it's a different set of rules for government.
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Old June 4, 2018, 01:39 PM   #30
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There are no accidental shootings. The Term is ND

Negligent Discharge.
That is simply NOT true. I have twice witnessed guns fire without ANY negligence on the part of the person holding the gun

Here is how it happened to me...

I was working as a contractor, had arrived in Baghdad and been issued a cpl of nonstandard guns. A CZ75 and an AK. I loaded both and traveled from the airport to the greenzone, where our team-house was. No issues.

That evening i stripped both guns down for cleaning. When i was done i inserted the mag in the pistol and ran the slide....BANG. I looked ofer at a teammate that was standing close by. He said, “i saw your finger OFF the trigger when that went off”. I know with 100% certainty my finger was along the frame when it went off.

Further investigations showed that gun would drop the hammer about 1 time in 5. We took it to the range the next time and played with it. Even got it to double and triple a few times. Just a worn out POS.

SO, where was the negligence in that discharge? Finger straight, insert mag, run the slide. How many times have we all done that? It still resulted in the gun going off.

So, there are ACCIDENTAL discharges
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Old June 4, 2018, 01:50 PM   #31
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So, there are ACCIDENTAL discharges
Exactly. What many people call accidental is related to negligence, but ADs can in fact happen.
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Old June 4, 2018, 04:41 PM   #32
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There is a name for people like that.
Hmmm, let's guess on a few ...

a) "Former Agent ...";

b) "Fox Mulder, drunk";

c) "Sloppy stupid."
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Old June 4, 2018, 05:07 PM   #33
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he will be fired, not because of failure to secure his gun, not even for the negligent discharge that resulted in an innocent party's injury... but rather for making the department look bad.
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Old June 4, 2018, 05:22 PM   #34
Glenn E. Meyer
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There are accidental shootings as there have been faulty firearms that fired when they supposedly shouldn't have. That isn't an ND. True they may have been dropped by normal accidental processes (not dancing) but that's clearly accidental.
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Old June 4, 2018, 06:00 PM   #35
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He was released to a supervising FBI agent (apparently with no bail), and his name has not been released.

I doubt any private citizen would be accorded the same courtesies in a similar situation.
Exactly! And please, tell me he wasn’t waisted!? Rather, tell me he was - how can a man “dance” like that sober?

What an idiot!
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Old June 4, 2018, 06:08 PM   #36
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They did a blood alcohol test on him and results are "pending". These types results are near instantaneous so it should not take more than a few months.
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Old June 4, 2018, 07:04 PM   #37
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I have a personal observation. The guy was an FBI agent, the agency is an investigative organization. They have a great deal of responsibility for dangerous criminals and spend a lot of time rolling around in the mud with killers.

OTOH, the agents are also interpreters, investigators, evidence handlers, and some go armed anyway. So this guy may have been a forensic accountant. he was a special agent, according to some stories that I have read, being a special agent doesn't mean that he's swat, he may not be anything more than a special investigator. So, it's possible that he was just a nerd with minimal weapons training. Getting a nerd with little training into a bar and letting him party with a gun in his underwear is kinda risky.

maybe that is what happened, maybe not.
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Old June 4, 2018, 08:51 PM   #38
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So many things wrong in this story. I believe the worst is the Denver PD did not arrest him confiscate the pistol and hold him until trial or he gets bail, then let the FBI have him to do what they will with him. The example set by him and Denver PD and FBI is outrageous.
So I guess you want the same standard for the at fault driver of an injury traffic accident?
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Old June 4, 2018, 08:55 PM   #39
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I have a personal observation. The guy was an FBI agent, the agency is an investigative organization. They have a great deal of responsibility for dangerous criminals and spend a lot of time rolling around in the mud with killers.
You don't know much about the FBI I take it.
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Old June 4, 2018, 10:51 PM   #40
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They DON"T is what I meant to say. they aren't beat cops, they are more informational, but that doesn't mean that there are no agents in the field who are involved with actual danger. If there is a bank robbery that they are involved in, dozens of men will be involved in the offices, but there won't be a large number of field agents. There was a bank robbery and murder here and for the most part, they had one man here in the field for well over a year, working with locals.
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Old June 4, 2018, 11:41 PM   #41
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Worked for a PMC for a while. We had a number of incidents when a gun went off when it wasn't supposed to. In EVERY case, we terminated the guy. Negligent discharge, not accidental.

Sharkbite - what ... were you doing loading a gun in quarters like that? We provided base security on US outposts. NO ONE chambered a round without a supervisor's permission. Immediate termination.

Last edited by Evan Thomas; June 5, 2018 at 12:07 PM. Reason: language.
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Old June 5, 2018, 01:09 AM   #42
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I once was involved with a case as an expert witness, when I first moved to Florida, all via emails, phone conversations, from my old City of residence, Toronto.

I could not return in person, the application for a Green Card would have ended, as soon as I crossed the border. Not happening.

Not a problem anyway, worked out fine. My local knowledge of Police firearm rules and Regs. Came in real handy.

How it is similar to the Jumping JackFBI agents NG, is thus.

The Plain Clothes Constables Glock G27, fell to the floor in an arrest, one against 3. After the hard to believe stories from the three Constables, I saw on paper?

Exactly the same stories, including the one spelling mistake, exact.

I deducted the Pistol fell from the cheap in the pants nylon holster, there was enough cotton on the velcro retention strap, to have manufactured a tee shirt!

It was not retaining squat.

And a hasty grab to the trigger caused a .40 Cal S&W round to exactly parallel the tiled floor. And punch a hole through one Officers heel of his new sneaker, and not touch skin! But he said it felt like a baseball bat hit! The round was found buried in the wall, 1/4" up from the said tiled floor.

The story (3 of them) said this skinny 40-year-old Jamaican (Who had never had even a traffic ticket, in his 30 years in Canada) had lifted up from the deck, with three burly Officers on his back, drew the pistol, and tried to shoot one of these burly Constables, sure he did.

Exhibit # 1, the holster, was shown to the Court, The Judge liked my version of this struggle. And the 15 years in jail, went away, charges were dismissed.

I used to live near 41 Division, close to where this action took place. Close to this, as we would describe Section 8 housing here in the US of A, Ontario Housing development in Ontario. No, I have not been back!
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Old June 5, 2018, 03:50 AM   #43
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he will be fired, not because of failure to secure his gun, not even for the negligent discharge that resulted in an innocent party's injury... but rather for making the department look bad.
I'm sorry to disagree with you but I rather doubt it. Of course if you or I had done it we would be looking at 5 years in the slammer.
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Old June 5, 2018, 06:39 AM   #44
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Also, if charged it most likely will be a Class I misdemeanor.

https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-1...-18-3-204.html
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Of course if you or I had done it we would be looking at 5 years in the slammer.
Nope, Misdemeanor is up to one year.
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Old June 5, 2018, 06:53 AM   #45
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They DON"T is what I meant to say. they aren't beat cops, they are more informational, but that doesn't mean that there are no agents in the field who are involved with actual danger.
No problem.
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Old June 5, 2018, 08:17 AM   #46
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Nope, Misdemeanor is up to one year.
If they can prove he was drunk they could tack another misdemeanor charge on him for carrying while intoxicated. I think it is three months.

So um, how many first time offenders go to actual jail and do time for misdemeanor charges in Colorado? Around here it somewhere around 1% unless they don't pay their fines in which case it is 100%.
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Old June 5, 2018, 09:29 AM   #47
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If you are not a legal expert, can we stop the opinions of who would go to the slammer. If you are not a FBI agent or someone knowledgeable about law enforcement, can we stop the blather about their job roles.

Let us talk about what actually happened and what is actually known. Charges and analyses will be forthcoming. Until then, some of this thread is embarrassing.
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Old June 5, 2018, 11:00 AM   #48
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Sharkbite - what ... were you doing loading a gun in quarters like that? We provided base security on US outposts. NO ONE chambered a round without a supervisor's permission. Immediate termination.
Not every contractor works in such controlled environments. Our villa (teamhouse) was our home, training area (gym), briefing/planning area, motor pool...everything.

We would do our mission brief, get jocked up, and roll out. Lots of weapons handeling in and around the house. Dont assume that because you had to load under the supervision of someone that all contractors had to operate under such regulations.

During my time in Afghanistan, we would regulary go in and out of the Embassy in Kabul. I had the opportunity to chat with some of the guys on the guardforce there. Some were great guys, some were just warm bodies filling a slot. If i remember correctly, they had the same kind of regs you mention.

Sorry Brother, i dont mean to come off like an A**. But, not all contractors (or contracts) are on the same level
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Old June 5, 2018, 06:59 PM   #49
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So, there are ACCIDENTAL discharges
Of course there are. The FBI agent wasn't slamming a mag into the gun and he wasn't charging the gun or anything like that. It would seem extremely unlikely that his drop gun became motion sensitive and fired simply because he touched it in a manner of safe and normal gun handling.

Running the video in slow motion...looks like the gun fired when he closed his hand around the grip and tightened while in the process of picking it up. It happens in a fairly smooth motion. It is unclear where his finger is at the time, but since the gun fired while his hand was tightening around the grip, it is more likely that his finger is inside the trigger guard at the time. Simply squeezing the grip should not cause the gun to discharge.
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Old June 5, 2018, 07:17 PM   #50
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simple case of stupidity and

clumsiness making a grab for the sidearm on the ground,

I thought any duty holster had to use a thumb break.

Just poor decisions involved.
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