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Old June 3, 2018, 05:32 PM   #1
Double Naught Spy
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FBI Agent Loses Gun During Back Flip...

...and shoots a bar patron when he tried to pick it up. Obviously, it was a bad grab.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/03/us/da...rge/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT6j2Adi2uk

I put this in tactics and training because of the aspect of what to do with a dropped gun. He appeared to be in a hurry to retrieve his weapon before it was noticed and grabbed it wrong, something he should have known better than to do.
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Old June 3, 2018, 05:42 PM   #2
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There is a name for people like that...…………..
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Old June 3, 2018, 05:57 PM   #3
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Hmmm... does not inspire confidence.

If it were a DA/SA gun, I doubt it would have been a problem.
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Old June 3, 2018, 06:24 PM   #4
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Back Flip With a Twist Negligent Discharge

This guy was too cool for school. I could talk for days about his mad dancing skills but the important concept is that you never try to catch a falling gun and when you do recover a dropped gun exercise extreme care.

See the videos at links. (two different angles at lighting levels)

http://kdvr.com/2018/06/02/fbi-agent...n-shot-in-leg/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-age...ar-2018-06-03/
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Old June 3, 2018, 06:39 PM   #5
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This is where I have a problem with the idea that Law Enforcement,even the FBI are somehow superior,or to be trusted with a firearm more, than a civilian with a concealed carry permit.
In particular,those who think the teachers and other school staff that choose to train and be armed should not be allowed to be armed.

I don't think your average armed teacher would be doing back flips on the dance floor of a whiskey bar packing in a holster with such poor retention it dumps the gun.(I refrained from saying the FBI agent had been tasting the whiskey at the whiskey bar before doing back flips on the dance floor. That would be speculating. Why would I think the "Water of Indiscretion" could have ANYTHING to do with back flips on the dance floor?As Columbo might say,"There is one thing that bothers me....Why did the agent re-holster and leave the scene without rendering aid to the man he shot? Or sticking around for the Denver PD? Something to hide?)

And it MIGHT be that a trained teacher would pick up a dropped gun without putting a finger inside the trigger guard.(Which he did)

The competence /incompetence thing certainly CAN be about lack of training

But I find those who are so kool they are above the rules
Are the ones as likely to break the rules.

Last edited by HiBC; June 3, 2018 at 06:57 PM.
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Old June 3, 2018, 06:41 PM   #6
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There are several other reports, some by witnesses that say similar things, he's just too cool for the rest of us...

It's unfortunate that he was released to his FBI work supervisor. Idiots like that shouldn't have guns. In the event they do, they ought to know how to pick one up off the ground without grabbing the trigger.

I sincerely hope he loses his job and a massive civil suit, he's a terrible poster-boy for a fed with a gun.
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Old June 3, 2018, 06:48 PM   #7
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"Agents are allowed to carry their service revolvers if they so choose"?

There's one newscaster who needs to retake "Firearms for Journalists 101"

Better video in the second link than I had seen before. You can clearly see the gun flying out, and the fibbie fairly lunges to grab it as soon as he lands from his back flip. Then it looks like he just walks away -- no attempt made to find out if anyone was hurt.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; June 3, 2018 at 07:00 PM.
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Old June 3, 2018, 06:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
But I find those who are so kool they are above the rules
Are the ones as likely to break the rules.
Most likely, most likely says I.

I am thinking he was drinking alcohol too, that is one of the key activities at bars and, if Brad Paisley is correct, one of the prerequisites to getting white people to dance.

This guy is going to be king of the internet for a while, just like that ATF Agent who shot himself in the leg at the gun safety class at the school.
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Old June 3, 2018, 07:24 PM   #9
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There are proper ways to pick up a gun, regardless of the circumstances. That was not one of them.
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Old June 3, 2018, 07:38 PM   #10
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There are proper ways to pick up a gun, regardless of the circumstances. That was not one of them.
But when a loaded firearm is falling, it is best to not try to grab it.
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Old June 3, 2018, 07:56 PM   #11
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You can call it an accidental discharge, but I don't think that accident is the proper term when someone is engaged in such absolutely foolish behaviors.

When he is discharged from the bureau, I don't think that the word accident will come into play either.

I have a really hard time forgiving anyone who goes out for a night of drinking and partying while carrying a gun. It's one thing to stop in and have a drink or have beer with dinner. If you are doing backflips, you've blown everything.
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Old June 3, 2018, 08:17 PM   #12
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He was released to a supervising FBI agent (apparently with no bail), and his name has not been released.

I doubt any private citizen would be accorded the same courtesies in a similar situation.
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Old June 3, 2018, 08:21 PM   #13
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[QUOTEBut when a loaded firearm is falling, it is best to not try to grab it. ][/QUOTE]

Sound advice. This incident was video'd Its on YouTube.There is a link in the OP.
It did happen fast,but he is a right handed shooter with a left hand holster at 6 oclock,similar to SOB carry. "Posterior cleavage crossdraw" He does his flip and dumps the gun.The gun was drop safe. It came to rest on the floor.It fired when he scooped it up left handed with his finger on the trigger.IMO,he had a little telltale glitch in his balance as he scooped it.

No one was shooting at him. He had time to be safe. Circumstances suggest his cognitive and motor skills may have been impaired,IMO.
Dropping the gun was one incident.The gun came to rest.
The ND was a separate/connected incident around picking up the gun.

Last edited by HiBC; June 3, 2018 at 08:28 PM.
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Old June 3, 2018, 08:57 PM   #14
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I have always been told that picking up a gun that has been dropped can be dangerous. The gun may not be in the same condition it was before it hit the floor. The safety may be in a different condition, the magazine may have released, the gun may have caught on something, the gun may be even be broken internally. Lots of things could have happened.

He seemed a lot more concerned with recovering the gun quickly than safely.
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Old June 3, 2018, 09:09 PM   #15
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Even more dangerous after you have been drinking enough to make a fool of yourself in front of that many people....
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Old June 3, 2018, 09:26 PM   #16
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Apparently, his deep cover wasn't deep enough....

It was a teachable moment at our house "When a pistol drops, let it go."
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Old June 3, 2018, 09:56 PM   #17
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So many things wrong in this story. I believe the worst is the Denver PD did not arrest him confiscate the pistol and hold him until trial or he gets bail, then let the FBI have him to do what they will with him. The example set by him and Denver PD and FBI is outrageous.
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Old June 3, 2018, 10:09 PM   #18
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Old June 4, 2018, 02:58 AM   #19
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So many things wrong in this story. I believe the worst is the Denver PD did not arrest him confiscate the pistol and hold him until trial or he gets bail
How do you know his pistol wasn't confiscated?

Also, if charged it most likely will be a Class I misdemeanor.

https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-1...-18-3-204.html


Quote:
(1) A person commits the crime of assault in the third degree if:

(a) The person knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another person or with criminal negligence the person causes bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon;
What that means is under Colorado Law the police can't arrest him without a warrant unless they observed the behavior directly. So it seems the local police followed the law correctly in regards to this case.

Showing "criminal" negligence is going to be the bar they have to overcome to get a warrant. The agent was clearly negligent.
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Old June 4, 2018, 07:29 AM   #20
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There are many things that puzzle me about this video; but...

1) That gun launches from the holster pretty well. Admittedly, I’ve never attempted to do a backflip on the dance floor, so maybe that flaw is more common to holster design than I think; but all of my holsters will at least pass the shake holster upside down test of retention. He’s an FBI agent. He should have a decent holster.

2. Small of back carry? I get he is trying to carry a service-size pistol in a fitted shirt; but maybe go with a different cut shirt? Smaller pistol in a more traditional IWB holster? Heck, he could have just missed the back flip and given himself a nice spinal injury with that move.
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Old June 4, 2018, 07:44 AM   #21
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He’s an FBI agent. He should have..
A number of “should have”(s)” in this one.
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Old June 4, 2018, 08:21 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by tony pasley View Post
So many things wrong in this story. I believe the worst is the Denver PD did not arrest him confiscate the pistol and hold him until trial or he gets bail, then let the FBI have him to do what they will with him. The example set by him and Denver PD and FBI is outrageous.
The laws that apply to gun owners don't apply to the Feds. I doubt he'll even get a reprimand from his supervisor, much less face any criminal charges.

....and I doubt the victim will receive any compensation for his injuries, either.

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Old June 4, 2018, 08:41 AM   #23
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The laws that apply to gun owners don't apply to the Feds. I doubt he'll even get a reprimand from his supervisor, much less face any criminal charges.

....and I doubt the victim will receive any compensation for his injuries, either.
I am betting the victim has already hired a lawyer and will settle for no less than six figures. If it were a local or State Cop... seven. It is tougher to sue the Federals. It will never make it to a jury. A jury would make it rain money like they were getting paid themselves.

The agent may or may not face charges. Accidental shootings are tricky. Most often the shooter is not charged or no-billed by the Grand Jury, especially in a gun friendly state; if shown to be an accident. The video may actually help his case under Colorado Law. He can make a solid argument that it was an "accident" especially since it is unlikely he knew the victim.

According to Colorado Code:

Quote:
“Criminal negligence”.  A person acts with criminal negligence when, through a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise, he fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists.
Doing back flips in the club while sauced might fit the bill; if that can be shown as the proximate cause of the injury.

I'd been interested in reading a decision several years from now if there ever is one.
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Old June 4, 2018, 08:54 AM   #24
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He was released because Denver PD is investigating it. Citizens, including criminals, often receive similar treatment. The fact that he is released doesn’t mean he is free and clear. He just hasn’t been charged yet. Saw an incident where a citizen fired at a vehicle during a road rage incident. He was released on the spot and not jailed until he was actually charged some eight months later.

Even if FBI does not pursue any serious disciplinary charges, I imagine his FBI career is over because that guy just made a whole lot of Brady lists. And I wouldn’t agree he is likely to skate on discipline either.

As for compensation, a federal law enforcemeny agency whose officer just did something really stupid that was directly responsible for an injury is a very attractive litigation target, despite the resources available to the Feds.

I’d be interested to see how it goes but I doubt it gets much news coverage followup.
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Old June 4, 2018, 11:46 AM   #25
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I doubt he'll even get a reprimand from his supervisor, much less face any criminal charges.
I think you're wrong about that. I think they will flay him alive, hang him out to dry, and nail his flayed skin on the briefing room door as a warning to others.

Not because he accidently shot someone. Not because he was doing dance moves in a bar and lost control of his weapon. But because of the unpardonable sin of embarrassing the FBI. And doing it VERY publicly.

In an earlier age, he might have gotten off with just a reprimand, in an age when such an incident would have been forgotten and gone away fairly quickly. Maybe a letter in his file, or something like that, and of course, his career advancement would be over.

But, today? can't let this one fade, or sweep it under the rug, IT'S ON FREAKIN' UTUBE!!!!!

Tens of thousands, if not already millions will see the videos, OVER AND OVER.

THAT, the FBI cannot, and will not forgive.

I am curious what the gun, and holster were. Mostly I am curious if the gun was a "safe action" type with no manual safety, or if it had a safety, which was not engaged.

I'm pretty sure I know WHY the guy lunged for the gun, losing control of your weapon is a serious sin for an agent, exceeded only by loss of one's badge/FBI credentials. As long as no one gets shot. In this case, I'm certain his intent was to get the gun back, as fast as possible, in the hopes no one would notice. Had he not had the gun go off, it might have happened just that way.

But it didn't happen that way. Not only did the gun go off, someone was shot. This one isn't going away, but the agent's career already has, though we will have to wait until after the official investigation to hear a public announcement.

I note the news is very carefully NOT saying he was drinking. Nor are they saying he wasn't. They are, for once, not speculating on that, saying only "the incident is under investigation".

and yes, until the official findings are out, I doubt there will be much media coverage, they simply don't need to beat this one over and over, its on UTUBE, and that will do the job, quite well.

Is this a case of "rock out, with your Glock out!!" ????
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