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Old May 14, 2018, 05:45 AM   #1
mete
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excellence in real world shooting !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-mother.html
Looking carefully at the photos I find the woman [in pink] did everything perfect ! She must have had good training . She was off duty Military Police .
The other woman was hopeless as she walked away from her child !

I gave up trying to teach people the basics of defensive shooting as far too many had no interest in training - the gun to them was some majic wand that would protect them !
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Old May 14, 2018, 05:41 PM   #2
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Where is the Thumbs Up?

Holding a gun on women and kids ,,,,aaarrrgghh! He will not do it again.

Thankfully no decent human was hurt or killed. Only the animal!
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Old May 14, 2018, 05:50 PM   #3
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I think she did fine but honestly, after taking his gun I would not have hung around trying to control him or be all robo-cop. There could be accomplices or other compatriots that may decide to get involved. I would have made sure help was called and I would have removed myself from the street altogether. As joe citizen, I don't care if he escapes.. gets caught or any of that jazz. I just want to stop the threat so I can remove myself from a dangerous situation.
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Old May 14, 2018, 08:14 PM   #4
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She did awesome! Everyone was already in extreme danger with the perp holding a gun in their faces. She was lightening fast in her response. She didn't hesitate. She shot him and briefly took cover behind the parked car and then as quickly as possible she kicked away his gun and restrained him with her foot.

She did the right thing staying with him. She did not know if he had other weapons on him. You can see her asking the spectators to call 911 or whatever and probably giving them instructions to get back or stay back, whatever.

This real life 'scenario' just goes to show how fast things happen. Just a matter of seconds. This woman (off duty cop) was amazing and is a true hero.

True she could not have known at that point if he had accomplices or not, but she still had to what she did. She had him down and couldn't afford to let him up.
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Old May 14, 2018, 09:17 PM   #5
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had to?? yeah right

This is a violent event and anything can happen. Sure he could have another weapon.. and remaining 3 feet from him is giving him plenty of opportunity to engage her again. It is not uncommon for robbers to work with accomplices and I would always expect there to be a second badguy. "IF" this badguy has a second weapon and "if" an accomplice shows up... it creates a split attention dilemma. How many people can she fight at once? How compounded is the risk if she has to deal with two offenders. Remaining on the scene of a violent occurrence is simply not something I would do and I certainly disagree with the suggestion that (staying with him) had to be done. Its possible that she had a responsibility to secure him, I am not sure what oath she took or what her responsibilities are regarding civilian law enforcement but I would have removed myself from the street and waited for the authorities in a less volatile location.
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Old May 14, 2018, 09:57 PM   #6
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She made a statement afterward in which she says she had to act quickly and that she relied on her training. Do you think that her official training might have included staying with the attacker until back-up arrives?
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Old May 14, 2018, 11:04 PM   #7
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Looks like the guy broke his left arm when he fell.
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...I would not have hung around trying to control him or be all robo-cop.
That could be an appropriate course of action for you, as joe citizen. On the other hand, if you were a police officer, even an off duty police officer like the defender in this situation, it's likely you would react like an LEO due to your training and that would be an appropriate course of action under those circumstances.
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Old May 15, 2018, 02:47 AM   #8
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Hi! Did you watch the video? I watched it like ten times. She was amazing. I can't even imagine that anyone who saw her in action didn't figure out she was either off-duty or undercover. She did NOT hesitate! What a gal! From the time he first held the gun out until she shot him was like 3 seconds. What an incredible reaction! She was blonde too.
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Old May 15, 2018, 04:20 AM   #9
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No hesitation, 3 shots! I wonder how many hits? What a pity no, or very selective concealed carry in Brasil.
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Old May 15, 2018, 06:35 AM   #10
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My vote--she gets the top medal for the best "Ain't no Parkland going down on my watch" award. I've been there--what you may not understand is that the police ARE an extension of the military in Brazil. They don't mess around, and it truly can be a "shoot first, ask questions later" proposition when engaging an LE there. Brazil is a wonderful country--but has a massive part of the population that lives in poverty; crime and drug gangs are on a level that even the worst we have in US probably doesn't come close to. The kinds of police brutality videos that make the news here would not warrant a blinking of an eye in Brazil most of the time.
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Old May 15, 2018, 07:19 AM   #11
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I am sure there could be a merited discussion about whether or not a off duty military LEO has any responsibility at all to apprehend a badguy committing crime on a civilian street. In this discussion and in this example, I was considering her a regular person. It may also be perfectly legal to effect a citizens arrest or the equivilant ( I don't know). Nevertheless, I was simply commenting from a joe citizen perspective.

As I said previously, ultimately she did fine and she is certainly a hero in my book. That said, if we are to examine the incident critically ( as we normally do), I simply find hanging around in the street long after he has been injured and disarmed to be exceedingly and unnecessarily risky. If I were to put myself in her shoes, I would have removed myself from the street after disarming him. Again, there are plenty of things I don't know about a foreign country and duties/responsibilities/obligations of this military LEO.

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Do you think that her official training might have included staying with the attacker until back-up arrives?
Sure.. I would assume that her training did include all those things. I simply feel that if she was not required or duty bound to capture him, secure him or remain with him.. then don't. That's just me and I am not saying that she couldn't do what she did and I certainly do not have any moral objection to anything she did. I am just looking at it as a "what would I do" situation. Generally speaking, the more things you do, the longer you use force and the longer you remain in the danger zone.. the more potential you have for unfavorable or problematic developments. I tend to have a "less is more" type of mindset when considering these kinds of things... but of course it all depends on the circumstances and the stakes involved.
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Old May 15, 2018, 03:26 PM   #12
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FF...I think it's difficult for any of us to know exactly what we would do in any given situation until we are actually confronted with it. And we all have different opinions. You are certainly entitled to yours and I understand the point you are attempting to make even though I think the officer in this video did exactly what she should have done.

I guess this is one of the things that makes some of us go into LE and others stay 'the average Joe' as you put it.

You are probably correct in that it was dangerous for her to remain with the attacker, even though she had him down on the ground, but I think it would have been more dangerous for those she was trying to protect if she had left him unattended. Anyone who points a gun at a group of women and children should be considered extremely dangerous and should not be left alone for one second, even if they are down and wounded.

Just my humble opinion.
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Old May 15, 2018, 04:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
I am sure there could be a merited discussion about whether or not a off duty military LEO has any responsibility at all to apprehend a badguy committing crime on a civilian street. In this discussion and in this example, I was considering her a regular person. It may also be perfectly legal to effect a citizens arrest or the equivilant ( I don't know). Nevertheless, I was simply commenting from a joe citizen perspective.

As I said previously, ultimately she did fine and she is certainly a hero in my book. That said, if we are to examine the incident critically ( as we normally do), I simply find hanging around in the street long after he has been injured and disarmed to be exceedingly and unnecessarily risky. If I were to put myself in her shoes, I would have removed myself from the street after disarming him. Again, there are plenty of things I don't know about a foreign country and duties/responsibilities/obligations of this military LEO.



Sure.. I would assume that her training did include all those things. I simply feel that if she was not required or duty bound to capture him, secure him or remain with him.. then don't. That's just me and I am not saying that she couldn't do what she did and I certainly do not have any moral objection to anything she did. I am just looking at it as a "what would I do" situation. Generally speaking, the more things you do, the longer you use force and the longer you remain in the danger zone.. the more potential you have for unfavorable or problematic developments. I tend to have a "less is more" type of mindset when considering these kinds of things... but of course it all depends on the circumstances and the stakes involved.
I agree with a lot of this. If I am looking at this from the position of a concealed carry hold which I am, I am not a LEO of any kind, I would not have continued to engage the suspect once he has been disarmed. She did not know the extent of his injuries. In this picture she is vulnerable.



Her initial reaction to the threat was pretty much perfect. IMHO She calmly drew her gun from her purse and appears to rack the slide moving directly to a strong handed firing position. Once she has fired she immediately moves to cover acquires a two handed grip still covering and accessing the threat. Once she assess that he is no longer armed moves from cover and removes the gun from his reach and secures it.

Then this is where she looses me. There is no need to put yourself in contact with the perp. She could have easily kept her distance issued verbal commands and accomplished the same thing. Standing over him unbalanced with her weight on him could have set her up for failure. She was covering him the entire time but to me she is still taking too much risk. Depending on where the perp was shot and his own physical strength and will she put herself unnecessarily close to him. She then turns her attention aways from the perp which is also dangerous.

Still all in all very impressive.

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You are probably correct in that it was dangerous for her to remain with the attacker, even though she had him down on the ground, but I think it would have been more dangerous for those she was trying to protect if she had left him unattended. Anyone who points a gun at a group of women and children should be considered extremely dangerous and should not be left alone for one second, even if they are down and wounded.

Just my humble opinion.
I think she could have protected the group of women and children from distance. She could have moved back onto the sidewalk and still covered him while keeping her self out of the zone of physical contact. Again issuing verbal commands to remain on the ground or I am going to shoot you again. If he moved you shoot him again.

It is playing arm chair QB but that is part of what we do when we watch these types of videos. It is about learning from other peoples actions. Being critical is not being negative and does not take away from the positive actions she took IMHO.
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Old May 15, 2018, 04:45 PM   #14
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That is very thought provoking. It does give me pause to ponder. However, I wonder if we would be having this same debate of sorts had it been a male off duty officer vs a female.

Quote:
Once she assess that he is no longer armed moves from cover and removes the gun from his reach and secures it.
I don't think in all the video we saw that she could have been certain he was no longer armed. She only used her foot to make him turn over and pin him down so to speak. She did not lean down to frisk him. He could still have had another weapon on him.

Quote:
She then turns her attention aways from the perp which is also dangerous.
She had her foot on him and gun pointed at his head. She could feel if he moved. She needed to give instructions to the crowd, whatever it was she was telling them to do.

I have tried to imagine myself in that same situation, with foot on his back, gun to his head, not knowing the extent of his injuries or if he still had a weapon and not having a back-up. I think I would keep my foot on him too, just so he felt and I felt I had him more under my control.

JMO
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Old May 15, 2018, 04:47 PM   #15
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aside from the risks associated with maintaining contact and control, there can also be a question of where "self defense" begins and ends. Again, if we look at this through a citizen filter and not a LEO arresting a offender.
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Old May 15, 2018, 04:59 PM   #16
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aside from the risks associated with maintaining contact and control, there can also be a question of where "self defense" begins and ends. Again, if we look at this through a citizen filter and not a LEO arresting a offender.
Okay...looking at it from the 'citizen filter' once you have shot the perp you have already committed. It is even more your responsibility to make certain no one else is harmed. She was not acting only in 'self defense'. She was also protecting others.

I think she did everything right. But that's only my opinion and I'm enjoying reading the opinions of others such as yourself.
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Old May 15, 2018, 05:11 PM   #17
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WVsig

That is very thought provoking. It does give me pause to ponder. However, I wonder if we would be having this same debate of sorts had it been a male off duty officer vs a female.



I don't think in all the video we saw that she could have been certain he was no longer armed. She only used her foot to make him turn over and pin him down so to speak. She did not lean down to frisk him. He could still have had another weapon on him.



She had her foot on him and gun pointed at his head. She could feel if he moved. She needed to give instructions to the crowd, whatever it was she was telling them to do.

I have tried to imagine myself in that same situation, with foot on his back, gun to his head, not knowing the extent of his injuries or if he still had a weapon and not having a back-up. I think I would keep my foot on him too, just so he felt and I felt I had him more under my control.

JMO
It has nothing to do with gender. My point is I would have never put my foot on him. I would have kicked the gun out of the way like she did. Secured it and then backup up onto the sidewalk between the perp and the others. From there issuing verbal commands to keep his hands visible and to turn over onto his stomach. If he did not comply with the commands I would take that as aggression and any movement towards me and I would have shot him again.

This is just my take on it. If the perp had a weapon standing on him with her foot in his back did not put her in a better position to defend herself and others. She could have covered him from distance and it would have been just as effective. She could have stood at the position she was in at :34 seconds in the video and accoplished the same thing without putting herself in danger. It would be different in my mind she was moving in to cuff him. IMHO
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Old May 15, 2018, 05:13 PM   #18
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For those who have not seen the video in full, here it is:

Off Duty cop shoots robber on Mother's Day - Video

I think it's important to see the entire video when forming opinions.

Don't you?
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Old May 15, 2018, 05:15 PM   #19
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It has nothing to do with gender.
Thanks for the clarification.

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My point is I would have never put my foot on him. I would have kicked the gun out of the way like she did. Secured it and then backup up onto the sidewalk between the perp and the others.
If you look at the video again you see he is still moving, at one point it looks like he reaches for her. This is when she puts her foot on him as if to say "I mean business Buster!"

How could you leave someone who is still moving around?
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Old May 15, 2018, 05:38 PM   #20
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Thanks for the clarification.



If you look at the video again you see he is still moving, at one point it looks like he reaches for her. This is when she puts her foot on him as if to say "I mean business Buster!"

How could you leave someone who is still moving around?
He is rolling around on the ground with his hands in the air. She can see both of them. He is not going to reach for another weapon without her seeing the movement. While he is still moving on his stomach his hands are visible. Either way I would have kept distance between me and the perp.
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Old May 15, 2018, 05:47 PM   #21
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He is rolling around on the ground with his hands in the air. She can see both of them. He is not going to reach for another weapon without her seeing the movement. While he is still moving on his stomach his hands are visible. Either way I would have kept distance between me and the perp.
He stopped moving when she got him pinned down with her foot. She probably didn't want to have to shoot him again. If she had moved away and he had reached again she might have felt she had no other choice but to shoot.
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Old May 15, 2018, 05:59 PM   #22
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Okay...looking at it from the 'citizen filter' once you have shot the perp you have already committed.
Some may argue that good judgment regarding use of force does require the application of force, method of force and [duration] of force to be properly measured. That may require a person to STOP what they are doing. Ask the pharmacist who was recently arrested for the actions he took to stop a robber. He was certainly committed... and it may cost him.

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It is even more your responsibility to make certain no one else is harmed. She was not acting only in 'self defense'. She was also protecting others.
by what standard is it my responsibility to do anything more than what I desire to do after putting him down and taking his weapon? If someone wanted to suggest that stopping him, putting him down and taking his weapon created MORE of a hazard, I think that would be a very difficult argument to make. Can you reference an example of a citizen having to legal responsibility to capture someone in a similar circumstance?


Quote:
I think she did everything right. But that's only my opinion and I'm enjoying reading the opinions of others such as yourself.
As I said in my very first post, I think she did just fine and she is a hero. That said, there can always be things to learn from critical examination of each moment as is unfolded.
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Old May 15, 2018, 06:32 PM   #23
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I think the act of forcing him to roll over and pin him was her way of "full commit" to keep him still--even if tactically-speaking risky. I'll bet she was fully prepared to put him down with a kill shot if he even budged--my guess is she probably said something to that effect. Mother bear and her cubs comes to mind.
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Old May 15, 2018, 06:57 PM   #24
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I think the act of forcing him to roll over and pin him was her way of "full commit" to keep him still--even if tactically-speaking risky. I'll bet she was fully prepared to put him down with a kill shot if he even budged--my guess is she probably said something to that effect. Mother bear and her cubs comes to mind.
Mama bear is right! This happened right at the door of the school where she and the other mothers were picking up their children.

I'm sure you are right about the "kill shot". She would have taken him out in a micro-second had he budged.
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Old May 15, 2018, 07:13 PM   #25
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I guess my thought is that "that kill shot" could have been delivered from the curb just as easily as she could have done it with one foot on his back.
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