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Old April 23, 2018, 05:19 PM   #51
briandg
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I once came into a #3 situation. Gas station, gangsta guy screaming obscenities at a bunch of teenagers standing around a church van, with his right hand stuck in his pants. I was perpendicular to his vision. I stepped out of my car and just waited in the shadow of my car with my gun holstered. Idiot yelled for about a minute then got into his gangsta mobile and left. No gun shown, no explicit threat to kill, only a lot of swearing and name calling with no provocation from the kids that I ever saw. even showing my weapon at the time would have gotten me in trouble. It got me in trouble anyway, my wife yelled at me all through the rest of the drive for taking such a chance.

Other circumstances would have obviously meant many other things. Neither a verbal threat to kill nor a demand for cash mean anything in reality, these scenarios will be judged on their own merit on a case by case basis, and it will always depend on whether the opponent needed to be shot to end a threat that he presented.

Want to hurt someone's feelings? tell him "I wouldn't even draw my gun if an armed robber said that he was going to kill you." It would be ironic if the guy punched you in the nose.
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Old April 23, 2018, 05:29 PM   #52
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What do you think that provocation might have to do with immediate necessity?
So now you are editing the quotes that you hand pick to eliminate parts of the actual dialogue?

The courts will decide that, as well as every person who hears the story.

How do you reach necessity? Well, I guess that it reaches immediate necessity when A GUY WITH A WEAPON PROVOKES YOU. If there is no provocation, what are we even talking about?
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Old April 23, 2018, 07:42 PM   #53
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In essence this discussion has been about a potentially violent criminal threatening to end an innocent's life. Whether scenario 1, 2, 3 or 4; the potential worst case outcome for the victim is death by murder.

It seems there are those who would advocate adopting the role of the lamb taken to the altar, and those who actually understand what led to "The Onion Field."

If ever it comes to it, I only hope for my "Dead man's ten seconds."
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Old April 23, 2018, 07:47 PM   #54
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Incredible difference between handing over one’s wallet while maintaining control of ones firearm and handing over one’s firearm and getting in a car as a kidnap victim. I hope most of us understand the difference
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Old April 23, 2018, 08:45 PM   #55
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Brilliantly put, Lohmann, muzzleblast, and very important. Compliance and appeasement are even involved in global warfare. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, sometimes we misread all of the cues, sometimes the other guy misread them.

Either way, neither party knows the outcome in advance, but only the instigator knows the plan and possible outcome in advance, and often, the instigator is stupid, unstable, amoral, treacherous. Compliance that means surrendering options that could keep you safe should be a low priority on the option list. Really simple there. Weigh it. Can you overcome the person or persons who pose a threat? If not, compliance may be better than initiating a fight that you can't win. Compliance may prevent escalation and give the events a possible outcome that doesn't involve dying.

In some ways it's pointless to even think about these things except to try and gather personal wisdom and insight into what actions may lead to safety.

The onion field involved two men who put faith in their ability to survive without weapons and were mistaken. They might have failed to recognize any cues that were present. They didn't know that there was already a plan. Maybe they could have made a choice that didn't kill one of them.

I know that people get tired of hearing me repeatedly talking about chaos, fate, and the will of God but those factors are more important to the eventual outcome than most people think.

Maybe if both cops had broken into a run the shooter would have missed?
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Old April 23, 2018, 08:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
So now you are editing the quotes that you hand pick to eliminate parts of the actual dialogue?
I have edited absolutely nothing.

Quote:
How do you reach necessity? Well, I guess that it reaches immediate necessity when A GUY WITH A WEAPON PROVOKES YOU. If there is no provocation, what are we even talking about?
No. Provocation has nothing to do with it.

Necessity derives from a situation in which the defender reasonably believes that the robber possesses the ability (weapon or not, and he does not have to see the weapon) and the opportunity to cause death or great bodily harm; a condition of jeopardy exists (the robber's statement in the scenario at hand establishes that); and other means of defense are not available (preclusion).
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Old April 23, 2018, 10:39 PM   #57
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Can you articulate a set of facts and beliefs that a reasonable person would consider just cause for a fear of imminent death?

What if the criminal does not have a gun? Well, you need to provide more info. The totality of the situation, or what a reasonable person would perceive as the situation, is what matters. The WISQARS database returns 217 homicides under "struck by or against" for 2016 (last reported year of data). People are perfectly capable of murder without firearms...

If a naked grandma said, "give me your wallet or I'll kill you," a reasonable person would not likely give that threat much credit. If a person built like an NFL defensive lineman said the same thing, or a person appearing to be concealing something that could be a weapon said it, a reasonable person would give the threat more credibility.
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Old April 23, 2018, 10:43 PM   #58
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Well put.
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Old May 3, 2018, 06:02 AM   #59
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From a woman's point of view....

Quote:
1. Guy comes up to you, pulls a gun from his pants, and says "Give me your wallet or I'll kill you."

2. Same deal, but he only lifts his shirt and shows you the grip of his gun...but doesn't draw it.

3. Same deal, but he puts his hand under his shirt in what looks like a gun-gripping, getting-ready-to-draw move...but you never see a gun, just his hand disappearing under his shirt.

4. Same deal, but he only says "I have a gun...give me your wallet or I'll kill you."
So he would probably refer to my purse instead of my wallet. I also presume this might be in a desolate and maybe even dimly lit place where he would not be seen or attract attention. And I would probably be alone because it's doubtful he would try to rob me if my husband was along. So....first off I would be terrified. Not so much that he was going to rob me as I might be terrified that he was going to also rape me and torture me and and then kill me anyway. It's a bit different when you're a woman.

Still, even if he had his gun drawn and pointed at me I would not attempt to outdraw him. But I would assume at that point that it was my life or his and that I must be smart about it. I would be glad I had a concealed weapon and wasn't completely helpless. I would stay as far away from him as possible and gently toss my purse to the ground. I would not be worrying about identity theft or credit cards or whatever cash I had in my purse. I would be thinking about surviving. And still, my concealed weapon would be my ace in the hole in my mind, all the time wanting him to just take my purse and leave.

However, once he picked up my purse I would be ready to do whatever it took to defend myself from any further advances I perceived to be threatening to my existence or safety. I would consider myself to be in extreme danger and that my life completely depended on whatever actions I took at that moment.

He wouldn't be thinking I was armed. He would be thinking I was compliant. This might be my last chance to do something to save my life. Even though I had already given him my purse.

I would wait for him to turn and leave, but if he took one step toward me I would grab my gun from my waist holster and then if he shot me at least I would know I didn't choose to be the victim, rather I tried to fight back.

The same goes for #1, #2, #3, #4. I would feel just as threatened under any of those circumstances.

Otherwise...what would be the point of my concealed carry?
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Old May 9, 2018, 04:29 PM   #60
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I am bumping this thread up because I haven't gotten any kind of response to my comment about the scenario of what would I do, or rather, what would be the appropriate thing to do in the event someone confronts you and says "Give me your wallet, I have a gun and I'm going to kill you." Along with 3 other scenarios.

Most appear to think the lawsuit that would ensue if you decide to take action in order to protect yourself would be too expensive and therefore you should do nothing. I guess let the perp kill you? It doesn't make any sense to me to even carry a self defense weapon if you think like that.

What if the person who confronted you said "Give me your wallet. I have a knife and I'm going to kill you?" But you couldn't see the knife. Horrifying thought. Somehow the thought of being attacked with a knife is so much more horrible than being shot. Would you still do nothing because you were afraid of how much a lawsuit would cost you?

I'm confused here. I hope someone will respond.
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Old May 9, 2018, 04:40 PM   #61
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Your response must be predicated on what you BELIEVE.

If you truly believe he is a deadly threat, that is he has the ABILITY, OPPORTUNITY and is showing the INTENT to cause great bodily injury or death, then you are justified in defending yourself with deadly force.

So, the totality of the circumstances must be weighed in your decision.

The attacker need not show the weapon, but you seeing it sure helps you articulate WHY you believed him to have one.
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Old May 9, 2018, 05:27 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite View Post
Your response must be predicated on what you BELIEVE.

If you truly believe he is a deadly threat, that is he has the ABILITY, OPPORTUNITY and is showing the INTENT to cause great bodily injury or death, then you are justified in defending yourself with deadly force.

So, the totality of the circumstances must be weighed in your decision.

The attacker need not show the weapon, but you seeing it sure helps you articulate WHY you believed him to have one.
Sharkbite! Thank you so much for responding!

It has become dangerous where I live for a woman to walk around at night without any kind of protection. Maybe it isn't safe anywhere. I'm not sure anymore from everything I read in the news. I'm not sure I would even have to believe an attacker had any kind of weapon for me to resort to deadly force to protect myself. A man could easily overcome me. I used to walk around at night with nothing. And I didn't worry. I never even thought about someone attacking me. But then things changed about three years ago when woman living only one mile from me was brutally attacked and murdered, in her own home. Sadly, she didn't even own a weapon. I'm not sure that would have kept her alive but at least she might have had a fighting chance. Not even a year ago another woman was found dead after having been attacked only a few blocks from where I live. She was found in an alley behind some buildings. So you see, I don't feel safe any longer. Here in the condominium complex where I live there was a a home invasion, less than a month ago. Single woman living alone left her garage door open. The cops did catch the guys and had a shootout with them, so they were definitely armed when they came into her place late at night and stole her purse with credit cards, cash etc. She was in the other room. They left when she made a noise. She's lucky to be alive IMO.

So...again...this is why I am carrying now. When I'm out for a walk at night and I pass a man I don't know it makes me nervous but knowing I have my little pocket gun helps to put my mind at ease.

The last thing I ever want to do is shoot someone. I've only had to threaten to shoot someone once and that was when I had an intruder in my house about 15 years back and they came in through the sliding glass door while I was sleeping. They woke me when they tripped on the step from the sunken living room and crashed into a credenza I had some glass objects in next to my bedroom door. I screamed and then went for my .38 which I kept in my nightstand (I keep it on the nightstand now). I told them I would shoot them and they left before the cops got there.

But I don't want to shoot anyone...

I suppose I would first shoot into the air unless they were about to grab me. My husband and I talk about this a lot...what we would do in these instances.

Thanks again for your response.

~ Jazz

Edited to add:

Since this post I have learned more about firing into the air. I know not to fire into the air. I would never do that and I wouldn't fire a warning shot either. If I am in a situation where I feel my life is in serious danger and there is no other way to defend myself against my attacker....then and only then I would pull my gun and fire at my attacker until he is no longer a threat. (Hope I never ever have to do this.)
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Old May 9, 2018, 06:04 PM   #63
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Jazzgun,

First, you're welcome.
Second, i would suggest you seek out some professional training in use of force decision making.

You bring up a lot of points that need addressing. Disparity of force, warning shots, lots of things that a good trainer could explain.

I dont know where in Az you are, but do some research and start training.
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Old May 9, 2018, 06:06 PM   #64
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Before we all jump at 'shooting in the air' - that is not a good idea. You are responsible for the round and if it hits someone else - then you are a criminal and civilly liable.

Don't do that! You do not fire the gun except at your attacker if you feel justified on doing this.
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Old May 9, 2018, 06:14 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite View Post
Jazzgun,

First, you're welcome.
Second, i would suggest you seek out some professional training in use of force decision making.

You bring up a lot of points that need addressing. Disparity of force, warning shots, lots of things that a good trainer could explain.

I dont know where in Az you are, but do some research and start training.
I'm in the Phoenix metroplex. It's not safe here anymore. I am going to be taking a training course here very soon. I've already had quite a bit of safety training. I'm very good friends with my local PD. They are wonderful and encourage gun carry and training. Thing is..the cops can't be everywhere to protect you all the time no matter how responsive they are if you call them.
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Old May 9, 2018, 06:22 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
Before we all jump at 'shooting in the air' - that is not a good idea. You are responsible for the round and if it hits someone else - then you are a criminal and civilly liable.

Don't do that! You do not fire the gun except at your attacker if you feel justified on doing this.
Glenn....

I KNOW not to shoot my gun into the air! Here where I live there are SERIOUS fines for that! I didn't mean I was going to just fire into the air. What I meant was that if someone was threatening me, before I shoot them I would consider (when considering scenarios) a 'warning shot' before I actually shot them. And that's only if I had time.

It's so easy to say "Don't fire a warning shot. But if you were confronted by an attacker, what would you do? Just shoot them? I could fire into the ground. "Fire into the air" was generic. I didn't mean it literally. I do know better. But if I was being attacked I might have to. Is there an exception if one is being attacked? I suppose it wouldn't matter if the attacker won the fight and I was killed.

Edited to add:

Actually Glenn, upon further contemplation of this scenario, I would not fire a 'warning shot'. If I ever had to pull my gun it would be only if I thought my life was in serious danger and I had no other alternative. And I would never pull a gun on someone unless I intended to use it. I am a calm and level headed person who is not irrational and it would have to be a very serious and dangerous situation for me before I resorted to this option.

I hope I never have to find out for real. Thanks for your comment, which gave me reason to think more about this 'scenario'. I do know that my state is not necessarily a "Stand Your Ground" state but does state you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force if you feel your life is in danger. (not exact wording of the law). I also know that "warning shots" is a hot debate topic right now in my state. Not necessarily for civilians but for LE officers.

Thanks again.

~ Jazz
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Old May 10, 2018, 08:36 AM   #67
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Quote:
And I would never pull a gun on someone unless I intended to use it.
NO, you do not pull a gun on someone unless you have the justification to use it. That is a subtle point for many. I suggest as others have, some intense study of the law, the use of force and some actual scenario FOF. Start with the writings of Massad Ayoob.
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Old May 10, 2018, 11:55 AM   #68
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Jazzgun, do some reading, please.

sometimes the mere presentation of a gun can thwart a criminal attack. that is better than firing the gun in any fashion, and really better than waiting until you are being assaulted to "pull a gun".
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Old May 10, 2018, 02:26 PM   #69
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Jazzgun, in general (there are no absolutes) the courts consider a male to possess a "disparity of force" in a physical altercation with a woman. It is, again generally, presumed that even an unarmed male possess "the means" to cause "great bodily harm, or death" to a female. It is also, generally, presumed that "fear" on the part of the female is justified.

Certainly, with the recent murders and assaults in your neighborhood, no "reasonable person" would question fear during the course of a break-in, mugging, assault, etc.

Sounds to me like there is reason for a concerned citizen's group to solicit input from local law enforcement.
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Old May 10, 2018, 03:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
NO, you do not pull a gun on someone unless you have the justification to use it. That is a subtle point for many. I suggest as others have, some intense study of the law, the use of force and some actual scenario FOF. Start with the writings of Massad Ayoob.
Glenn, it appears to me you are cherry picking my comments to look for something I posted wrong. I am getting very frustrated with this. I am new to this forum and also new to my 'pistols' but I am not at all new to guns (revolvers, rifles, shotguns, etc, which I have been around all of my life. I grew up on a ranch in Texas and learned how to shoot and handle a firearm safely at a very young age. I had a Colt .22 as a youngster and have had a .38 longer than I can remember. I've worn my holster with my .38 for years when I felt it necessary and know the laws of my state as well as all the other states I have traveled to or through with my gun with me. I always carry a gun in my vehicle and have for at least 20 or more years. I am an EXCELLENT shot!

We have had a rash of HORRIBLE and BRUTAL murders here near where I live and I am going to be safe. I have worked with the police in sponsoring women's safety events as a result of this. They are incredibly cooperative and appreciative and understanding. I am not an amateur gun owner. I have also worked with Taser, International, who helped to sponsor one of our safety events. I have a taser as well as other (legal) devices for self defense.

I would NEVER and I repeat NEVER EVER point a gun at someone unless I had justification and I will define my justification for you here so there will be no more misunderstandings:

Justification: Being confronted by an attacker who I felt was going to kill me or seriously injure me and there was no way to escape them. In that event and that event only I would use my weapon to defend myself.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding you may have about my ability to know when using my weapon would be justified or any misunderstanding you may have about my knowledge of the 'use of force' when it comes to my own personal safety.

Thanks for your comment and concern.
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Old May 10, 2018, 03:38 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JERRYS. View Post
Jazzgun, do some reading, please.

sometimes the mere presentation of a gun can thwart a criminal attack. that is better than firing the gun in any fashion, and really better than waiting until you are being assaulted to "pull a gun".
Jerry...thank you for your concern and your comment. Please read my above response to Glenn. It should also answer your concerns.

Thanks, Jazz
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Old May 10, 2018, 03:50 PM   #72
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Jazzgun, I am pretty sure that the reason for Dr. Meyer's last post is that some folks think, and express on this and similar forums, that you must fire if you draw. That, as you now say you know, is incorrect; if an attack ceases on presentation of a firearm, you need not fire, and in some situations the justification for firing may even be eliminated. The way you phrased some stuff before his post left open the possibility that you may not have understood that.
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Old May 10, 2018, 03:53 PM   #73
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Thank you very much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by muzzleblast... View Post
Jazzgun, in general (there are no absolutes) the courts consider a male to possess a "disparity of force" in a physical altercation with a woman. It is, again generally, presumed that even an unarmed male possess "the means" to cause "great bodily harm, or death" to a female. It is also, generally, presumed that "fear" on the part of the female is justified.

Certainly, with the recent murders and assaults in your neighborhood, no "reasonable person" would question fear during the course of a break-in, mugging, assault, etc.

Sounds to me like there is reason for a concerned citizen's group to solicit input from local law enforcement.
Muzzleblast,

Thank you very much for your sensible and understanding comments and thoughts. It isn't like I'm living in a war zone here or that I am going around totally paranoid. lol But you hit the nail on the head with your comment about the recent murders. I am very good friends with the parents of one of the murdered young women and the details are too horrific to even think about. I do live in a safe part of my city, but maybe there's just no place anymore that's really safe for a woman to be alone at night. At least a woman can be prepared. That's all I am attempting to do with CC.

Please read my comment to Glenn above so that you know I am not a novice gun owner who is going around half cocked. You didn't make me feel you thought that way and I very much appreciate it.

I especially appreciate this comment you made:

Quote:
Jazzgun, in general (there are no absolutes) the courts consider a male to possess a "disparity of force" in a physical altercation with a woman. It is, again generally, presumed that even an unarmed male possess "the means" to cause "great bodily harm, or death" to a female. It is also, generally, presumed that "fear" on the part of the female is justified.
I already knew that but it was good to have someone else validate it as well. As for a concerned citizen's group, along with the safety events we also have neighborhood watch and my particular community is stepping up ways to be more secure and alert. It's amazing how many times I see a woman running along a remote path at 5 or 6 in the morning, and using her cell phone, etc. Most people always think nothing will happen to them. It's always someone else...until it isn't.

Here in Arizona we also have a dark sky ordinance so that the stargazers (of which I am one) can enjoy the beautiful Arizona night skies. Therefore it is relatively dark at night which invites criminal activity. Just another reason to be more cautious.

Thanks again Muzzleblast!

Thanks to everyone actually.

~ Jazz
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Old May 10, 2018, 04:06 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by TailGator View Post
Jazzgun, I am pretty sure that the reason for Dr. Meyer's last post is that some folks think, and express on this and similar forums, that you must fire if you draw. That, as you now say you know, is incorrect; if an attack ceases on presentation of a firearm, you need not fire, and in some situations the justification for firing may even be eliminated. The way you phrased some stuff before his post left open the possibility that you may not have understood that.
TailGator...

Thanks and I think you are correct in that there was something "lost in the translation". That's the problem with posting in these forums. I will be more careful in the future when posting about something of such a sensitive nature. I appreciate your pointing that out to me very much.

And I'm not upset with Glenn. I'm just upset that I was misunderstood and I take full responsibility for that and I own it.

As for knowing when to fire or when not to fire.... there are simply too many scenarios to go into. I would hope to #1 Never have to be presented with the necessity. #2 Hope the situation would not result in my having to use my firearm #3 Know without any uncertainty that if I did it was only as a last resort because I had exhausted all other possibilities to protect myself from death or serious injury.

I hope I never ever have to shoot anyone. I have said this before and I've said it again. It's the very last thing I ever want to do.

Thanks again,

~ Jazz
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Old May 10, 2018, 05:42 PM   #75
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Quote:
As for knowing when to fire or when not to fire.... there are simply too many scenarios to go into.
I honestly think that if you look closely enough at details, there are an infinite number - none is ever exactly like another. Still, thinking about scenarios in advance, as you are doing, has value in preparing us for the eventuality that we hope we never see.

Quote:
I hope I never ever have to shoot anyone. I have said this before and I've said it again. It's the very last thing I ever want to do.
I hope neither you nor I ever are forced to shoot, either. But it's not the last thing I want to do - dying a preventable death, leaving my wife and daughters and my darling granddaughter (I have pictures if you have an hour or two!) bereaved, is the last thing I want to do. That is why we use seat belts, and eat right, and keep fire extinguishers where we might need them, and why we arm ourselves.
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