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Old July 18, 2018, 12:51 PM   #26
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As a note on his reload, one comment I read elsewhere pointed out how him switching the pistol to his left hand like he did seems a perfect example of doing a revolver reload. When I watched it with that in mind, it seemed to fit, and might be in part why he fumbled with the magazine. It made me wonder if the officer originally learned on revolvers or was taught by someone that had and he either defaulted to or did what is really a revolver reload with a semiauto.

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Old July 18, 2018, 02:02 PM   #27
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As a note on his reload, one comment I read elsewhere pointed out how him switching the pistol to his left hand like he did seems a perfect example of doing a revolver reload. When I watched it with that in mind, it seemed to fit, and might be in part why he fumbled with the magazine. It made me wonder if the officer originally learned on revolvers or was taught by someone that had and he either defaulted to or did what is really a revolver reload with a semiauto.
I would chalk up the reload fumble to adrenaline. A high speed chase is bad enough, then you add bad guys shooting at you.

I think something we should remember is that being a police officer does not automatically make one a gun enthusiast. It is a tool that they have to carry and qualification is usually just once a year. I'm not sure if there are any departments that mandate a specific amount of practice. For officers who aren't gun enthusiasts, practice is probably a range session or two right before they have to re-qualify. This obviously does not apply to SWAT/SRT.
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Old July 18, 2018, 02:34 PM   #28
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I read elsewhere pointed out how him switching the pistol to his left hand like he did seems a perfect example of doing a revolver reload.
Guys, he switched the pistol to his left hand as his car came to a stop. His right hand was putting the car in park. Then he fumbled thru the reload left handed like he had never practiced that before.

As for the “monday morning quarterbacking”. That is a poor description of what is going on. Amatures talk about what went right...pros discuss what went WRONG and attempt to learn for those mistakes.

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Old July 18, 2018, 03:09 PM   #29
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Just based on this four minutes of bodycam, I can't really see anything that the guy did badly wrong. He seemed to keep his head, handled the pursuit reasonably well, and when the roads cleared, he took extreme measures to get them shut down before they reached another populated area. Traffic was quite thin when he started shooting.

Something that I'm going to seriously stand by was that he focused on stopping the passenger who restarted the car, and was going to take off again. I am sure that it's a hard call about whether he should have stopped the car or went off after the runner, but he did see that the door was locked and he ran. Guy couldn't have easily gotten into the school.

I have a healthy respect for what it takes to run a police car. It's not just driving. I would prefer to see the walkie capable of use by a steering wheel button control.

If he had another magazine, he should have reloaded after taking out the car, but he had a lot going on right then. He was through shooting and moved on to other issues that covered the whole area and he failed to realize that he was suddenly very short on ammunition. Five rounds left, was it?
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Old July 18, 2018, 03:12 PM   #30
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As for the “monday morning quarterbacking”. That is a poor description of what is going on. Amatures talk about what went right...pros discuss what went WRONG and attempt to learn for those mistakes.
That's not what I see most of the time. It usually seems to be people going over minutia and criticizing, rather than finding real problems and offering solutions or learning opportunities.
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Old July 18, 2018, 04:06 PM   #31
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I would chalk up the reload fumble to adrenaline. A high speed chase is bad enough, then you add bad guys shooting at you.

I think something we should remember is that being a police officer does not automatically make one a gun enthusiast. It is a tool that they have to carry and qualification is usually just once a year. I'm not sure if there are any departments that mandate a specific amount of practice. For officers who aren't gun enthusiasts, practice is probably a range session or two right before they have to re-qualify. This obviously does not apply to SWAT/SRT.
I think Sharkbite hit the nail on the head with the comment about putting the car in park.

As far as training, in my experience the "average" officer varies a lot in skill. I've seen patrol guys that really impress, and others not so much. I would agree that to get to people with the skill level many people seem to expect from police you almost always have to get to SWAT or SRT guys. Those are the guys really putting in the trigger time.

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Old July 18, 2018, 04:07 PM   #32
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That's not what I see most of the time. It usually seems to be people going over minutia and criticizing, rather than finding real problems and offering solutions or learning opportunities.
Just because it's what you see most of the time doesn't mean it's what is happening here or has to be happening here.

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Old July 18, 2018, 05:13 PM   #33
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The point I tried to make, and is so often ignored by comments in discussions like this, is that there is almost never a risk-free alternative in an armed confrontation. The very best that we can do is estimate what might be the course with the lowest risk of a bad outcome and the highest probability of a good outcome.

Another principle is that the acceptance of risk of collateral casualties goes up with the risk of not acting. It is the same idea as accepting more side effects in cancer drugs than in a cold remedy - if the disease is bad enough, or the bad actor is acting badly enough, you start to more accepting of side effects or the risk of unintended casualties.
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Old July 18, 2018, 06:45 PM   #34
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I don't know exactly how far the run was, but the video appeared to show that it was less than four minutes. He picked up on the guy and he started to run, what was it, thirty seconds before the first volley? The guy went into oncoming traffic a little bit after that, ran a light, went into oncoming once again and turned across it, whereon the cop followed.

the BG was at that time in a very low traffic spot, it appeared, there was a brick monolith to the side, I didn't see any indication that he was in a high risk area, as if he was in a really busy shopping area with traffic piled everywhere and passers-by on foot.

Should he have notified dispatch that he was about to fire on the driver?

It was a reasonably safe area to do so. I don't know exactly what the upcoming traffic situation was. Here's a link to the area of the shooting.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/E+...4d-115.1058123

If I'm understanding this correctly, and I'm not certain of my map skills, he was right on his way into a downtown casino district and the interstate. Might have given him a sense of urgency?
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Old July 18, 2018, 08:47 PM   #35
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Nathan, there is a significant amount of LEO firearms training now-a-days about shooting from with the vehicle and through the windshield. See Kyle Lamb & Richard Nance on the Guns & Ammo site, for instance. I don't know about the officer/department in this video, but officers and operators ARE being trained to shoot from inside vehicles and through the windshield.
Well, I’m not a go fast operator, but I did see Kyle Lamb’s video. First shot missed the target. Subsequent shots through the same hole were hits....that is my point. Firing through glass creates misses. Once the hole is there, yes, use that hole. Don’t call me out because I say 5 shots through 5 holes are wasted!
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Old July 19, 2018, 01:59 PM   #36
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Well, I’m not a go fast operator, but I did see Kyle Lamb’s video. First shot missed the target. Subsequent shots through the same hole were hits....that is my point. Firing through glass creates misses. Once the hole is there, yes, use that hole. Don’t call me out because I say 5 shots through 5 holes are wasted!
The point others have made is that shooting through the windshield does work. Once the glass has been compromised, subsequent rounds are not deflected as much. You mention collateral damage from the deflection, but shooting at downward sloping glass will deflect the bullet down from the point of aim. Could it then ricochet off the hood and hit someone? Maybe, but it will have lost a lot of energy already and would still continue to travel more or less in the direction fired.
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Old July 19, 2018, 03:01 PM   #37
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The point others have made is that shooting through the windshield does work
The point that is being missed is shooting at a moving vehicle is unlikely to do anything to stop the vehicle. You have to hit the DRIVER.

THAT hit was highly improbable shooting thru your windshield AT THE REAR of another vehicle with both cars moving at speed AND the risk of collateral damage was HIGH

As to mtpl rounds doing better at penetrating auto glass... that only holds true if your bullets go thru the compromised area. His shots looked to be in about a 5-8 inch group. Not thru an existing hole. Each round he fired had to make its own way thru the glass. Not a recipe for success.

When you weigh the risks, there were other options that held more chance of success and lower chances of harm to the public.

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Old July 19, 2018, 08:48 PM   #38
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...shooting at downward sloping glass will deflect the bullet down from the point of aim...
In my experience, shooting out through a windshield will send the bullet upwards. Shooting in through a windshield from outside the vehicle will deflect down. It's counter-intuitive, but the bullet tends to leave perpendicular to the glass.
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Old July 19, 2018, 09:19 PM   #39
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In my experience, shooting out through a windshield will send the bullet upwards. Shooting in through a windshield from outside the vehicle will deflect down. It's counter-intuitive, but the bullet tends to leave perpendicular to the glass.
This was my experience in my class as well. Confused the heck out of me at the time.

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Old July 20, 2018, 09:03 AM   #40
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In my experience, shooting out through a windshield will send the bullet upwards. Shooting in through a windshield from outside the vehicle will deflect down. It's counter-intuitive, but the bullet tends to leave perpendicular to the glass.
Wow... That's crazy and totally counter-intuitive! I was almost certain an object striking a angled surface would deflect along the angle, not against it. How far off did it change the point of aim?
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Old July 20, 2018, 09:37 AM   #41
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When I was a young cop we had a shooting where the BG was fleeing in a motor home. If I recall correctly it absorbed 200 some hits from 158 grn 357 magnum and 00 buck before running out of gas.
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Old July 20, 2018, 12:12 PM   #42
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How far off did it change the point of aim?
Depends on the distance to the target from the glass and how steep the angle on the glass.

When shooting into the vehicle its seemed pretty negligible as the target is usually very near the glass pane.

When shooting outwards, the point of aim had better be around the knees for a center mass hit at around 20 yards or so.

YMMV
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Old July 20, 2018, 02:56 PM   #43
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I'm going to have to talk to the guys at our practical shooting club about trying that. I'm not sure about range regulations though since I doubt they want glass all over the range.

On a separate note, what about shooting the tire versus shooting the wheel? I heard bullets can actually bounce off of tires. I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the angle of the shot. Direct shots should penetrate, but angled shots have a chance of bouncing off. There have been a few cases where head shots did not penetrate the skull, but traveled under the scalp instead. I can't imagine that felt too good.
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Old July 20, 2018, 07:46 PM   #44
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In my bullets and vehicles class I actually ended up with a massive bruise on my lower leg. It was from a ricochet off a tire. I didn't notice until that night. Bullets can indeed bounce off tires, and even those that penetrate cause a very slow leak due to the self sealing nature of rubber. From what I saw you'd have to go to a rifle round to really have an effect.

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Old July 21, 2018, 02:03 AM   #45
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You might try Barnes bullets , they tend to cut a clean hole at least in metal.
The newer spike strips use metal tubes so the tire air comes out of the tire.

in the old days many patrol cars had hinged windshields ! Bring them back !
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Old July 22, 2018, 11:17 AM   #46
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I have seen a 223 go right through both sides of a tire. I've seen a 45 ACP bounce off a tire (hit perpendicular to the tread face) and bounce back giving a person a large bruise on his chest. Funny, you could clearly see it on the way back - not enough time to move though.
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Old July 22, 2018, 01:02 PM   #47
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A guy I know was firing a black powder revolver, .45, I believe, and shot an oak stump. they were all bouncing off, thrown to the side, until he got one right square on a center point and it bounced right back into his chest. Slow, light, lowest possible sectional density is the one best way to make a bullet bounce right back at you. All you have to do is shoot at a material that it can't possibly penetrate or crush, and it needs to have a little spring to it.

You'll shoot your eye out, kid.
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Old July 24, 2018, 12:37 PM   #48
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Wasn't it the Oklahoma State patrol who used his AR15 to fire through his windshield at a fleeing vehicle? Where is that vid.. it was awesome
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Old July 24, 2018, 12:51 PM   #49
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used his AR15 to fire through his windshield
Ive shot a M4 out the open door of a Armored Suburban. It was LOUD. I cant imagine shooting a rifle from inside a closed patrol car. Yikes!!!!
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Old July 24, 2018, 03:51 PM   #50
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The dude was driving at speed, firing his shouldered AR through the windshield and talking on the radio. I was impressed to say the least
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