The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 12, 2018, 01:09 AM   #51
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 21,564
Quote:
I never pigeon-holed the example to mean only self defense/LE engagements.
Yes, I realize that--part of the point I was making was that you should have because "military tactics and rules of engagement are quite different" than those for self-defense/LE shootings.
Quote:
There is such a thing as a "bad shoot" in combat.
Of course there is. But that doesn't change the fact that the military plays by a very different set of rules than a self-defense shooter, or even LE must abide by. And that they can operate with a different set of tactics given that they almost invariably operate with a significantly different level of support.
Quote:
It's also clear that my point - that an instructor can only suppose what a self defense situation may be like if they haven't been in one - was lost.
Personal experience is not a pre-requisite for being able to provide information/training that "transfers to the real world". As mentioned, it's not supposition when someone suggests that ingesting significant levels of strychnine is a very bad idea--even if the person offering the advice has never personally experienced the effects of strychnine poisoning.

It's one thing to say that one can't know exactly what a self-defense situation feels like until one has been in that situation. It's another to say that without that experience, one can't provide useful training that transfers to the real world.
Quote:
If they don't know...
It is a mistake to equate personal experience and knowledge, or conversely, lack of personal experience with lack of knowledge. Education and training would all be useless if only personal experience counted. It's precisely because education and training have been shown to be valuable that we know people can aquire knowledge without having to live through something personally.
Quote:
I would be interested to find out what the other 10 questions were. I would be surprised if there wasn't at least one question about experience in use of deadly force.
Here are all 12 questions the way Cirillo lays them out in the book. Although he lists them out as 8, he explicitly discusses them as being 12 because some of the items on the numbered list contain multiple questions.

1. Are you a competitive shooter?
2. Have you competed in major matches and placed and won awards?
3. Can you perform well under pressure or fear?
4. Are you a hunter? Have you shot big game?
5. Do you like outdoor physical sports?
6. Do you collect firearms? Do you reload ammo?
7. If you are over 28, are you married? Do you have children?
8. Do you like people? Do you attend civic affairs?

The rationale behind each question is discussed and explained. It's a good book, and not just for that single chapter that discusses the qualities they found made a good gunfighter.
Quote:
these are the questions asked of those wishing to be on a surveillance team? are you kidding me?
They put the list of questions together based on correlations of observed qualities of officers who performed well in the initial selection.

It's important to keep in mind that it's hard to find people with real gunfighting experience, even on large police forces. Even many justified self-defense/LE shootings don't really qualify as true gunfights.
Quote:
You know for a fact that if a candidate hadn't had an encounter with use of deadly force that they simply wouldn't be considered?
Who said anything remotely like that? It wasn't that they wouldn't pick people with deadly force encounter experience, it was that they would have had an unworkably small pool to work from if they made that a criterion. Also, it's a mistake to think that just because someone gets shot at and survives that they must be a good gunfighter. There's a video online showing two women defending their store against an armed robber. They survived and prevailed, but the video show it clearly wasn't due to their gunfighting prowess or coolness under pressure.
Quote:
I think I personally am trying to illustrate that there is a difference in approach and mindset when you are transitioning from competition style shooting to defensive style shooting. I am not saying that some of the skills do not translate. They do.
Yes, there are things that translate well, some that aren't especially useful, and some that can actually be harmful.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old April 12, 2018, 09:26 PM   #52
Unconventional
Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2017
Posts: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Yes, I realize that--part of the point I was making was that you should have because "military tactics and rules of engagement are quite different" than those for self-defense/LE shootings.Of course there is. But that doesn't change the fact that the military plays by a very different set of rules than a self-defense shooter, or even LE must abide by. And that they can operate with a different set of tactics given that they almost invariably operate with a significantly different level of support.
Very good point. I only partially disagree and only to the extent that it would become nit-picky.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Personal experience is not a pre-requisite for being able to provide information/training that "transfers to the real world".
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
It is a mistake to equate personal experience and knowledge, or conversely, lack of personal experience with lack of knowledge. Education and training would all be useless if only personal experience counted.
I agree. My point is that it (experience) can validate and qualify what is being taught. Not that it's a requirement. I am very fortunate to have some training from an ex-police officer who is a world class shooter. He'd never been in a deadly force encounter - and I wouldn't trade his shooting tips for anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Who said anything remotely like that? It wasn't that they wouldn't pick people with deadly force encounter experience, it was that they would have had an unworkably small pool to work from if they made that a criterion.
From post #32:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
That would have eliminated most of the potential candidates on the force.
I am under the impression that there were no right answers to the selection for those officers. It was a 'whole-man' assessment. I think you misread my post. (It's getting to the dizzying point of who said what)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
There's a video online showing two women defending their store against an armed robber. They survived and prevailed, but the video show it clearly wasn't due to their gunfighting prowess or coolness under pressure.
And thank goodness they're not offering instruction on how to survive a deadly force encounter.
__________________
Unconventional
Unconventional is offline  
Old April 13, 2018, 01:02 AM   #53
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 21,564
Quote:
From post #32:
Ah, I see. I took that to mean that restricting the entrants to only those who had survived a gunfight would result in eliminating virtually everyone from eligibility.
Quote:
I am under the impression that there were no right answers to the selection for those officers.
Cirillo makes it sound like he believes the higher the number of yes answers, the more likely a person is to survive a gunfight. In fact, he winds up the chapter by providing a hard threshold (7 yes answers) above which he believes a person "can make it" and says that if a person answers yes to all 12 they are "likely to walk away from almost any armed encounter".

It's not the list I would have made, but it's hard to argue with a solid record of success.
Quote:
And thank goodness they're not offering instruction on how to survive a deadly force encounter.
Indeed. Because we have video, it's unlikely that such a thing would happen. But I have no doubt that there are trainers out there touting personal experience from similar encounters where success is due to a combination of luck and even more incompetence on the part of the attacker. It's tempting for people to assume that experience always equates to valuable knowledge or a knack for training. In fact, it's often the case that neither assumption is true.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old April 13, 2018, 01:22 AM   #54
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,519
Apropos of nothing, I gave birth to five children but I sure as heck hope nobody would take professional-level advice from me about prenatal care, labor, or childbirth. The only things I know about those things are the things I learned from personal experience -- and even though I had five and not just one, and even though everything I learned was well-earned, there's just not enough personal experience there to turn me into a medical professional.

On the other hand, the specialist who delivered my youngest child had never been pregnant or given birth. (He lacked some basic qualifications for that.) But he had studied many different aspects of pregnancy, labor, and delivery -- including all the various ways everything could go catastrophically wrong and what to do about it.

A person who has deeply studied these issues would be a better person to turn to for help with medical issues related to delivering a baby than to someone who had 'only' given birth.

But a medical professional who doesn't study and listen to the experience of the people who have actually been there & done that, isn't studying at all. And isn't going to do a good job in teaching others, either.

Same thing with gunfights.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old April 13, 2018, 10:00 AM   #55
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,404
I had talked myself out of offering this analogy, but changed my mind after Pax's post:

No two medical cases are ever the same, nor are any two surgeries identical. Doctors, veterinarians, and other medical professionals are trained in basic principles that are then applied in different combinations to deal with the unique circumstances of each case, with, hopefully, increasing proficiency as they gain experience. It seems to me that firearms training is similar in the fact that basic skills need to be acquired and practices so that they are available to meet the needs of individual situations as they occur. Even a firearm trainer who has been in a gunfight will not have been in the same gunfight that you might experience, but the skills they teach will, if they are good at their job, be useful and applicable to you in your time of need.
TailGator is offline  
Old June 21, 2018, 04:30 AM   #56
Jeff22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 676
I shoot both USPSA and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. USPSA and IDPA can be considered as shooting skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight.

But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier(s) or a USPSA classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. USPSA and IDPA classifiers and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship challenges presented.

In such competitions I've always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. Currently I most often use a Glock 19 in CCP in IDPA matches and a Glock 22 in production class in USPSA matches.

I've been shooting USPSA since 1978 and IDPA since 2001. At the local level.

I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match(s) as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local USPSA clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD.

You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . .

Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover)

Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the USPSA shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" 32 round field courses [which don't fit in with my training goals very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . )
__________________
You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!
Jeff22 is offline  
Old June 21, 2018, 06:30 PM   #57
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 459
i help design some of our IDPA stages, and review others that have been designed by others, offering input and making sure they are legal and doable stages for our range.

when i design a stage, i try to think about what skills i want to test with that stage.

we have one coming up that forces you to shoot one handed (you have to carry something with your other hand that is large and weighty). so have you practiced one handed shooting? hope so.

also around cover, both sides, and moving targets, and moving yourself. all good skills to know and work on and be ready for exam/match day.
1-DAB is offline  
Old July 5, 2018, 09:45 PM   #58
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,275
Quote:
In other words, the winner of an actual gunfight isn't always going to be the one who can draw and shoot the fastest or even the most accurately. It will most likely be the one who thinks and reacts the best.
Without accuracy, you do not have hits. Competition shooters do better in real life shootings than those with little training or experience with their guns. It is about consistency, If you are counting on rising to the occasion, you won't.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old July 6, 2018, 11:19 AM   #59
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 11,822
Quote:
Without accuracy, you do not have hits.
That statement was "most accurately." You even quoted it. And without the most accuracy, you can still land hits and they may very well be very effective, though potentially less lethal. Instead of COM shots, you may have shoulder, gut, arm, hip, leg shots.

Given that with handguns, the most common ballistic impact 'stop' accompished is non-lethal and non-incapacitating, even less accurate shots are often quite effective in fights.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06525 seconds with 10 queries