Need a 30-30 load

[Wendyj]

Been using about 30 to 32 grains of imr 3031 and Speer soft points. Can’t keep groups under 3 to 4 inches with Marlin lever and Burris full field scope. 150 grain bullets all I can find local. At 100 I at least expected 2 inches or better. Any advice.

[Geezerbiker]

You can try some different bullets. Some rifles like heavier or lighter bullets. Maybe try some 130's or 170g bullets.

Some people have had good results with Hornady lever evolution bullets. With a bolt gun, I'd suggest trying to seat the bullets out further but lever action rifles need to have the bullets crimped in at the groove and that nixes that option.

That said, you may have a rifle that just won't shoot as well as you want...

Tony

[FrankenMauser]

That load should work. I'd suspect the rifle. But, you know more than I, about said rifle.


The best load I have run through mine:
150 gr Speer HCRN (discontinued, but the same seating depth works for the Speer and Hornady 150 FPs)
32.5 gr IMR4895
WLR primer
FC brass (also tested safe in MY R-P, Win, and W-W brass)
2.545" COAL
Shoots wonderful little bug holes from my '69 336, and about 1-1/4" from a new 336W. ...Even though it's the "wrong" powder for the cartridge.

[Rifletom]

Wendyj,
When I shot 150's from my 30-30[Mod 94], my load was:
33.5-34.0gr Win 748
150gr Speer Hot-Cor
CCi Std LR primer

This load was very accurate in my rifle.
Currently, for 170 Hornady FN:
34.0gr Win 748
CCI Mag primer
OAL: 2.535"
This is also accurate in my rifle.

[William T. Watts]

long ago I went with the 170gr SP flat nose Partition using either IMR4895 (preferred) or IMR4064 as my #2 choice, either one has grouped well in any 30/30 I've owned!! William

[Slamfire]

Can’t keep groups under 3 to 4 inches with Marlin lever and Burris full field scope

If your Marlin shoots within four inches at 100 yards, I don't think you have a problem. These are not target rifles.

There are so many Gun writers and Internet posters who claim sub MOA out of their lever actions that when your Marlin won't group similarly small groups, you think something is wrong. I think Gunwriters are liars and shills, and they deliberately don't fire enough rounds to determine inherent accuracy. Most internet posters are just following the group think, which is the expectation that all rifles and shooters are sub MOA. This is also a lie. These guys are not posting 10 or 20 shot groups, the three round groups they post (if they post) are statistical aberrations that you would expect with small sample sizes. That is another reason gun writers don't shoot ten or 20 shot groups. Chance and small group sizes it makes it easier to claim a higher degree of accuracy than actually exists. These guys shoot a number of three shot groups, toss out the bad ones, claim the smaller groups represent the inherent accuracy of the weapon. The worst part of the thing, is not only are they lying to the world, they are lying to themselves.

I shot hundreds of rounds through my Marlin 336 in load development and the better ones were around four inches, but the really bad combinations would not hold on an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper.

These were the best two loads, and they are between 2MOA and 3 MOA for a ten shot group. Do not copy my powder charges, my chamber was huge and all my charges are over reloading manual maximums. The velocities were book, so I concluded I had a big chamber. I do think the same powders will work well in some one elses rifle.





I took the rifle to CMP Talladega and shot it at 200 yards. With the best load it will hold the ten ring and shoots around 2 MOA at distance. That is about all I will get out of it with its best ammunition.



This was a recommended load, it shot well, but it strung the group up and down. That is a 7.9 inch group at 200 yards.



This is my best load, it will consistently shoot round groups and hold the ten ring.



I tried factory 150 grain Remington, the first shots were from a fouled barrel and placed high. I continued to shoot without adjusting anything, wanting a group size, and the group went down into the bull. I think this is actually pretty good except for the early shots.



As a class, lever actions are so inaccurate that the Range Officers at CMP Talladega won't let you shoot at 300 yards if you can't keep all shots in the black at 200 yards. And they unequivocally won't let you shoot at the 600 yard targets. Can't blame them. The marksmanship skills of the average American is pretty abysmal. A bud of mine works at an indoor range. They have a 25 yard rifle range, but before you are allowed to shoot, you must demonstrate your ability to shoot accurately. The standard is an 18" X 18" target at 25 feet. You have to hit the 25 foot target. Bud claims the vast majority (I think he said 80%) are unable to hit the 25 foot target with a rifle!.

[Rifletom]

Man! If you can not hit an 18" X 18" target at 25 feet, you need supervised lessons or shouldn't be handling firearms until said shooter gets lessons.

Slamfire, that is some pretty good shooting with the 30-30, especially at 200 yards. Honestly, I don't think most "gun writers" shoot the 30-30 very much at all to give it a true evaluation. Probably only Brian Pierce of "Handloading" magazine does.

[VoodooMountain]

Wendy,

Were you using iron sights or scope?
How familiar are you with this rifle?
How good are you with iron sights?

Semi buckhorn and a thick front post do not lend itself to much accuracy.


If this was from a scoped gun I would recommend going to a speer 170 grain. Hornady 170 is also good. The scope rings or base could even be to blame.

I would also recommend buying a couple boxes of ammo to play with and that will give you something me data points.

[Wendyj]

I have a Winchester I am familier with but it's saved for horseback with open sights. This is a Marlin or Remlin if you prefer. New to me. Scope is tight. Rings and base Leupold and no cant. Scope is a Burris Fullfiels II and is good and clear. I can shoot open sighted ok. Preferred the scope due to all the brush and trees in my hunting area I want to use this rifle on. Farthest shot may be 75-100 yards. More realistic 50-60 yards. Think I will try a walmart box of 170 grain core locs..

[ShootistPRS]

Wendy,
If you haven't tried Hodgdon H4895 please do. It has been a very good powder in my 30-30. I have to weigh each load, which I hate, but the results are great.
I had a Marlin with micro-groove rifling that I wore out in a couple of years. when it started grouping "shotgun" patterns I changed the scope and tried all different loads. Then I fit a bullet into the muzzle and it almost dropped through the barrel. I gave that gun to a guy who was going to re-barrel to a 32 WCF round.

[FrankenMauser]

Well, I guess I'm just lying to myself....

I can't find a photo of a .30-30 group right now.

Even so, this .307 Win group must be a lie, as well. Such a shame that this rifle consistently produces the same statistical anomalies. ...Especially since it was built from spare parts.


10-round group. But, apparently, I only have a photo from after the first five. (Scoped w/ fixed 4x28mm.)






This one, though (a Remlin 336W)....
Frustrating and irritating. It may be going back to Remlington.





It does this with everything ... most of the time ... but not always:



Base, rings, and scope have all been swapped for better parts. One more test on the schedule. If no progress is made, off to Marlington it goes...

[zipspyder]

LOL yikes. That sure as hech ain't right? I feel your pain.

I have a Winchester 94 30-30 and a 3 MOA should be doable with most lever actions, good ammo and a possible flier every now and then?

[Wendyj]

Frankemauser. I feel your pain. Same gun. I haven't lost any shots yet but certainly not impressed with it so far.
Shootist I do have some h4895 but everything I read said go 3031. I will give some a try. I still have almost 150 Sierra 150s left. Mine isn't blued either. Some cheap looking parkerize ng. Wish Marlin was still Marlin. If it doesn't get any better I'm going to sell and pick up a Ruger in 7-08.

[Dufus]

My BIL has a 94 Winchester that he got in the early 70s. It will consistently shoot 18" groups @ 100 yds.

[Wendyj]

18 inches??????

[Geezerbiker]

If I had a rifle that shot that bad, I'd certainly look into what was wrong with it. Sounds like it might need to have the crown recut...

Tony

[Slamfire]

Even so, this .307 Win group must be a lie, as well. Such a shame that this rifle consistently produces the same statistical anomalies. ...Especially since it was built from spare parts.

Great group! Show us more!

I would have suggested taking it to this Saturday's 1000 point match at the CMP, but that match requires rapid fire sequences and your lever action would not be suitable. However, there is an F Class match on the 14th. You can register online https://ct.thecmp.org/app/v1/index.p...it&match=15978. Once you show everyone that your 307 Win lever action can punch out the 300 yard X ring, by shooting a 200-20X, I am quite certain you will be allowed to shoot the next 40 rounds at 600 yards. The CMP hands each shooter a print out of their group and the values of each shot. It is very neat and handy. I have not scanned in a rifle score sheet, but this is a pistol score sheet, very similar.



Once we see your shot group and your Master Class or High Master Class score, based on a cumulative 60 rounds, your credibility about having a sub MOA lever action will be greatly enhanced.

[Bayou]

Obtained decent groupings @100 yards using LeverEvolution powder with Hornady 160 grain FTX projectiles. Using the load printed right on the powder cannister: 35.5 grains. MV is also printed as being 2,389 FPS.

This load also appears on the Hogdgon reloading data website...

[FrankenMauser]

Nicely done, Slamfire...

Accuse everyone of being a liar. Then, when some one comes along providing even minimal proof of a rifle that defies your purported 'lies', still insinuate that they're lying, while insisting that it still means absolutely nothing without taking it to 'Master Class' and a minimum of 40 rounds at 600 yards.

Yes, that's completely logical in a thread about lever guns...


Please go write another six-page thesis on greasing cartridges somewhere else. Right now, you're riding two fallacies that don't do anything for this thread: "Moving the Goalposts" and "No True Scotsman".

[Slamfire]

Accuse everyone of being a liar. Then, when some one comes along providing even minimal proof of a rifle that defies your purported 'lies', still insinuate that they're lying, while insisting that it still means absolutely nothing without taking it to 'Master Class' and a minimum of 40 rounds at 600 yards.

It ain't bragging if you can do it. Claim you have a consistent sub MOA lever action, get the round count up and prove it. You shoot in a 60 round or 80 round match, you won't be able to toss out the rounds or targets that don't prove your contention.

[rodfac]

I've owned Marlin lever guns for about 50 years now...and most will hold 3-4" at 100 yds, from rest. So I'd say that your gun is about average, accuracy wise. Marlins do respond to bedding improvements however. All of mine will hold about 2" now, for three shots from rest after some tinkering.

A scoped, stock lever gun that will throw its first three rounds from a cold barrel into an inch at 100 yds, is a very rare gun in my experience. Even with tweaking the bedding, loads, etc., it's an extremely rare gun.

I don't 'compete' with my Marlins nor with a cpl of Winchesters, so 10 shot groups are a waste of time and ammunition for me. It's the first three rounds that I'm interested in, and from a cold barrel at that...if they group consistently, I'm happy...and yes I do check with multiple 3-shot groups.

For some in depth instructions on how to tweak your Marlin, try the Marlin Owner's Forum. There are some very talented people over there who will help you. With a lever gun you have barrel bands, fore end screws, front sight ramps/hoods, tubular magazines plus magazine springs; all of which complicate the tweaking process.

All of the above affect barrel vibration and hence, grouping ability adversely. But, assuming you have a good crown on your barrel, and a decent chamber, it is possible to find a sweet spot in that mess, to produce good hunting accuracy. It just takes time and ammunition, and sometimes, a lot of both.

To check your Marlin's inherent accuracy try the following: remove the barrel bands, fore end and sight hood, as well as the magazine tube and spring. Then bench the gun from sandbag at 100 yds, scoped if possible. That alone (with all that wood and metal removed) revealed that my .30-30 Texan was capable of 1-1/4" 3-shot gps with my pet hand load. By tweaking each of those appendages, one at a time and reinstalling them sequentially, I isolated the offending parts, and ended up with a gun that'll shoot two inches....I was happy to say the least.

Personally, I've used 3031, with 170 grain bullets of Hornady or Sierra make in my guns with good success. 30 grains is the load, though you should check it with a good manual and work up if interested. BTW, I've always had better luck with 170 grain bullets than with 150's. 748 is another good powder.

[Wendyj]

Tried the h4895 and 3031 again today in ladder tests. This rifle has to go. I can do better with the open sighted Winchester. Think the Remlin needs 170 grain bullets instead of 150s Best groups today were 3.5 inches. Most running closet to 5-7 inches. Tikka 260 and 7 mag printing under a dime. Maybe Varget???

[ShootistPRS]

Wendy,
Get rid of that gun! You are too good a shot to put up with shotgun patterns from a rifle.
A Ruger should shoot well. The Ruger American has a fine reputation for sub-MOA groups.

[Wendyj]

Shootist. I agree. Was out today to buy some core locks and couldn’t bring myself to do it I haven’t shot factory loads with exception of buying 260 match ammo for the brass. I like the Ruger American. Thinking 7-08

[wild willy]

How are shooting the rifle off the rest.Try laying your hand on the bags and hold the forearm in your hand.I’ve had a couple Marlins that shot better that way. I don’t know if it’s the narrow forearm or because the bore is high.They want to twist around and recoil differently each shot and it affects your group