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Old June 28, 2017, 05:01 AM   #101
JeepHammer
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As for Dawgs question, Girard machines limit case movement, and by extension, case travel.
The back of the machine sets depth, it's an inclined surface so cases ride the slope down & out to the annealing point.
Two side guides, one adjustable for different width cases easily limit side to side movement while the annealing process is happening.
The floor/stop moves rotating the case during the annealing process, then drops the annealed case, resets for the next case to drop into place.

When a Ferrite is used to focus the magnetic field, the Ferrite has a gap in it, the case neck drops into the gap.

By shaping the gap in the ferrite, a much better, more even anneal will take place (if you shape the gap properly, 'Proper' will be different for each caliber case, and even neck thickness, experimentation required for YOUR best case annealing, adjusting for vairables)

The Ferrite is a ring with a gap cut out to create magnetic poles.
The shape & width of the gap is pretty easily adjusted for YOUR particular favorite case, simple grinding to shape.

Since the Ferrite is a ring, open in the center, setting the Ferrite 'Deep' to allow those super thin champfered & tapered case mouth lips to enter the center opening keeps the delicate mouth from overheating.
The case body gets annealed a little further down, but this isn't a bad thing.

If the Ferrite you are using has super thick sides, and you feel the case is being annealed too far down the sides, simply remove some of the Ferrite that's creating an issue for you and it can't annealing too far down anymore.
Just that easy...

A big plus is Ferrites are cheap and come in a large selection of sizes, so if you screw up, a new one is under $5 to about $20 depending on the size/type you want.
They are all over places like eBay and other sites, really common in electronics, so they are mass produced by the millions...

On the down side, they are very hard, usually ceramic, so it takes very hard saw or grinder tools to shape them.
Most times I use a cheap diamond abrasive saw blade (eBay, Horror Freight, any big box or lumber store that sells ceramic tile cutting tools/blades)
It's not like there aren't tools for cutting/grinding ceramics & glass.
Just be aware of the material and you will find a tool to do the job, usually cheaply & easily.

Now, if you were to use a case feeder rather than a gravity bin like Girard does,
What I used for drop through COIL (opposed to ferrite) feeding using a Dillon or like case feeder, you will need to develop a case shuttle to move cases from drop tube stack and drop them into the coil.
You can't use a coil with cases in a stack or while you are annealing the neck of one, you will anneal the head of the one on top of it, and annealing heads can be bad in a lot of cases.

Shuttle is pretty simple, every progressive loader has one, simply a block that pushes the bottom case out of a stack (in the tube) over to a hole that drops the case into the coil.
The same drive can also drop the annealed case out the bottom when it's done, and activate the switch that starts the annealing machine timer.

This is as simple as small DC motor, and the block, and a couple light duty linkage parts.
I'd use a $5 speed controller on the motor, all over eBay for cheap...
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Old June 28, 2017, 05:27 AM   #102
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RC20, when you get the 800*F paint, you will see the 'Ramp Up' effect that the Annie has,
Slow to start heating, getting those molicules energetic, but once they hit a certain point they REALLY take off, and you will see that 'Ramp' effect, an exponentally increasing effect on the brass with no more or less energy input...

This is why flame annealing is so difficult to do accurately with a 'Jet' torch, and why most annealing is done in an oven, kiln or heated media, to keep the process from running away.
You will smack that 800*F mark in a split second!
Don't worry about it too much if the 800*F JUST melts, if you SMOKE 800 into black char, then you are way over doing things.

I started out OBLITERATING 750 & 800 thinking I needed to see a color change... All the dogma said I needed to see color change in the brass or a 'Glow',
Wasn't my finest hour.

Surprised me how fast the energy ramp up happened with induction! Proves with out a shadow of a doubt how effective induction is!
(And how badly I was screwing up...)

I would set aside some scrub/culled cases for this, you WILL want to just play with it for a while!
Sometimes I throw a case in for 10 seconds when someone is watching, just takes the neck right off the case! Heck of a parlor trick!
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Old June 28, 2017, 09:05 AM   #103
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Once again we are just spinning in a circle here repeating the same things over and over.

If you can watch the video I linked in my earlier post and think that the steel bar that is being heated in it is being evenly heated from the top of the coil to the bottom then more power to you. Feel free to continue to dip your cases into that coil by hand and thinking you are getting the same amount of heating in the right area each time. I would think that anyone who watched that video would realize that the energy level inside a magnetic field is not a constant at every point and consistent placement would make a difference. Something more consistent in the placement than the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball and fingers unit that is. To me that would be no more accurate and consistent than dipping the case into a gas flame with your eyes closed hoping you are getting it in the same place time after time. The Giraud auto unit for example would at least provide consistent positioning of the case. But you would still need to recalibrate ever time that the coil was positioned for a different sized case, same as the gas Giraud. I like the Giraud auto feeder, seems like good piece of gear I just have to wonder why for that price they did not include a regulated torch and a more precise potentiometer. There are videos on the web showing how to upgrade those but I would rather to just pay 100 dollars more and have those features straight from the box

I am a stubborn SOB for sure, if you want to convince me I am wrong about something show me some citations or a spreadsheet and I will gladly look at it but so far I have yet to see anyone offer anything on the results of their efforts except opinion and blind faith. I am a data guy, show me the data if you want to convince me.

I am going to test my DIY annealer with my standard el cheapo non regulated torch before I drop 60 into a regulated unit. If my tests show an improvement in SD's and a reduction in my vertical groups I will go to the regulated torch. If that shows further improvement I will consider the AMP. I am not going to drop 1 to 2 1/2 months worth of my shooting budget on anything unless I am convinced it will make a big difference and will last.Until then though I will continue to use my torch. Propane torch annealed cases been setting world shooting records for years so that do have a bit of empirical data to prove they work, and I still have yet to see an iota of data from the posters on this thread showing that the technique they use results in a better anneal. The AMP site does show some before and after data as well as user reviews from competition shooters praising it so take that for what it is worth, it may be sales propaganda it may not .

BTW I checked yesterday the AMPs one year warranty is the same as the Annies, and any electronic reloading equipment sold by RCBS or Hornady.

Also RC I considered you point of seeing templaq in a spinning case so I grabbed some range pickup LC .223's. I brushed the inside of the necks then painted the them with templaq. Using my trusty cordless drill, a deep well socket, and my unregulated torch I did a old school anneal. I can verify that it is no harder seeing that templaq melt in a case that is spinning than one that is motionless. The other thing that leaped out for me was how fast the templaq melted. Afterward I polished the cases with some neverdull and inspected the cases. No rainbows were present but unless that templaq was defective I know the inside of that neck hit 700. I also noticed that there is no way in hell to over anneal the case body or the head using that method because the socket acts as a heat sink. You could cook the neck and shoulder till it melted and the case head would still be cool

Bottom line here is I think we are going in circles here and wasting each others time until someone using induction posts some real world testing data. It could be a series of hardness tests or a thermal camera video of the heat flow up and down the case. Just something more than blind faith and subjective opinion
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Old June 28, 2017, 09:39 AM   #104
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I also noticed that there is no way in hell to over anneal the case body or the head using that method because the socket acts as a heat sink.
I have a carbon torch, I have a spot welder on a swinging gate, I have another one that requires a vise or clamps, it always helps if I can involve the feet.

Annealing: there has to be rules and factors; one day I considered rules and factors that apply to annealing and then I made a few tools that I could use when annealing.

Hounddawg, for me nothing has changed, nothing written or claimed has changed the way I anneal, many years ago I used templestick, I have 43 sticks for a wide range of temperatures, I have the sticks, I do not use them (for annealing) but I have them just in case.

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Old June 28, 2017, 09:43 AM   #105
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Quote:
would set aside some scrub/culled cases for this, you WILL want to just play with it for a while!
Sometimes I throw a case in for 10 seconds when someone is watching, just takes the neck right off the case! Heck of a parlor trick
JH: Thank you for the clarification and the rest of the fill in.

This has been outstandingly useful from someone who has been there, done that, fallen into the traps and obviously uses empirical evidence.

I had seen what you talked about when I ran a 270 case through the process. Phew, what was somewhat marginal setting (at the time) had the whole neck on that thing glowing red.

I am going to knock the primers out and polish up brass which I have segregated as my play and testing. I have enough RP to get that down good, Lapua and PPU I will have to look for. I have some 308 that someone blew the primer pockets out of in Lapua.

I will just have to Sacrifice some of my 7.5 Swiss, you don't find any of that down at the range!
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Old June 28, 2017, 01:14 PM   #106
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Quote:
I have a carbon torch, I have a spot welder on a swinging gate, I have another one that requires a vise or clamps, it always helps if I can involve the feet.

Annealing: there has to be rules and factors; one day I considered rules and factors that apply to annealing and then I made a few tools that I could use when annealing.

Hounddawg, for me nothing has changed, nothing written or claimed has changed the way I anneal, many years ago I used templestick, I have 43 sticks for a wide range of temperatures, I have the sticks, I do not use them (for annealing) but I have them just in case.

F. Guffey
good post.

The main reason I have been participating in this thread is I am retired and have a lot of free time to sit here and research and read forums while recuperating from a fall last year. I do find the discussion interesting and have been devoting a couple of hours shop time on my DIY auto fed unit. I like to piddle around in my shop anyway just to keep the brain active plus I just like making things

I really don't see myself investing much more than I have money wise into annealing because the more I learn about shooting the less I blame my tools and the more I blame my technique. A torch and a auto unit should be good enough for my purposes and 1000 bucks worth of bullets and powder sent down range would probably improve my scores more than a AMP would

Honestly though I don't expect to see a drastic improvement of any sort no matter how low I get the SD's. Time will tell, I have some good brass to run tests on and it should be a fun experiment
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Old June 29, 2017, 04:39 AM   #107
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Not to put too fine a point on it,
But when you keep referencing a single video, or the sales propaganda from a single retailer, it's NOT research.

Go hunt through some of the educational modules from research universities, AZ state & Chicago in particular have very good metallurgy educational modules on annealing of cartridge brass on line,
Florida State has an excellent magnetic lab, does a lot of research for NASA, the military, ect. And posts instructional/educational modules online.

If you are going to keep referencing a retailers claims of 'Perfect', and you want me to pay any attention at all to those claims, find some CREDIBLE backup, otherwise it's just hollow talk...
You can claim ANYTHING, you found Elvis, Jim Morrison & JFK all having coffee at Starbucks, but unless you have credible proof to back it up other than the national enquirer it's just claims...

What I do is well within the laws of of the applied fields...
It's actually simple because I like KISS (Keeping It Stupid Simple) no sense getting a computer & $100,000 worth of CNC hardware involved when a simple drill stop will limit the depth of a primer pocket,
No sense in reinventing the wheel when widening the ferrite gap or coil will control over heating problems...

Self limiting hardware beats the hell out of complicated formulas, aerospace 'unobtanium' materials & having to learn some programming code just to perform a simple task with a fairly wide range margin of error...

Like I said before, either you aren't getting how simple the electro-magnetic units are and how they are more or less pretty well alike, or you are trolling for an argument to entertain yourself...
Since the units are more or less alike, it's the application of said unit that increases or decreases it's usefulness...
No amount of sales propaganda is going to change that.

No amount of youtube videos of heating steel (high electrical resistance, different thermodynamics) is going to change the way brass anneals (low electrical resistance, thermodynamics much different than steel)...

If you want a pretty good insight into induction annealing, look up Stanley Zinn. Decent article on coil types/shapes.
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Old June 29, 2017, 08:26 AM   #108
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You know Jeep in all of this threade you still have not published a single study where you show any empirical data proving your rig gives you consistent results. That would be assuming of course that dipping a case into a magnetic field in random places could ever give anything approaching consistency.

If you want to rely on blind faith and enthusiasm that is your affair but I need something more. Even a simple neck tension study using a 150 dollar arbor press with a force pack to seat the bullets would be more evidence of it's effectiveness than you have provided in this thread.

Now I plan on finishing my little DIY unit but I won't be coming here and posting how great it is just because I think it is nifty. What I will do however is run some very informal tests across a chrono comparing the case I have annealed to ones that have not been and tracking the SD's. I have a good number of cases that ranging from virgin Lapua's to some old Lapua palmas that have multiple annnealings using the drill and socket method that I can use to get my data with. Nothing that would stand up in a peer reviewed paper but at least something more than opinion and blind faith.

maybe you should go shoot some of your brass across a chrono, drop 150 on a K&M arbor press and a forcepack and measure the bullet seating force needed to seat the bullets in 100 or so of annealed vs unannealed cases. If you have the test gear do some hardness tests on a batch of cases that you have annealed using your DIY induction unit that would be great too but what I am really looking for is a study showing how SD and ES numbers affect group sizes. Give us some data if you want to change some opinions.
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Old June 29, 2017, 02:15 PM   #109
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You missed much of what got posted if you think that.
What this started out as, was the process for viewing microstructures, plain & simple way to do that with technology & materials that wouldn't cost a fortune.

Resin mounts that didn't cost you money for scientific grade mounting material since you aren't doing most of the tests the scientific grade stuff does, no thermal testing, no electrical conductivity testing, no electron microscope, etc, so the resin isn't required to be appropriate for that work.

How to use an abrasive from common sources to prepare your samples for visual inspection,
How to get a visual inspection without shelling out for scientific grade microscopes,
How to chemically treat the samples with common chemicals so the brass shows the grain structures & chrystals better.

Resin mounted samples, progressively finer abrasives, chemical treatment, magnified inspection,
There was no argument since this is the accepted scientific way things are done,
I wasn't making wild, unsubstantiated claims, or being a fan boy for any one particular product,
Simply pointing out that commercially available products have caught up with, or come very close to scientific grade since these products & process were adopted 50 or 75 or 100 years ago by the scientific community, and allow us to do a VERY respectable job with our own mounts/inspections with MODERN commercially available materials...

What I haven't done,
I haven't hammered on any specific product, to the exclusion of all others.
I haven't given any hard, fast, immovable rules since everyone's 'Perfect' will be different depending on the brand of brass, the alloy composition, thickness, etc.
I haven't burned up several pages reposting sales info/advertisments for a specific annealer.

Since ANY annealing style will be 'Perfect' if you are bright enough to work out the details, compensate for the vairables, there is no point in rambling on and on about any particular machine since they all work three basic principals... (Heat transfer from outside, lead pot, salt pot, heated die, or electromagnetic induction, or flame)

Several people that have worked with heat treating steel have chimed in with ideas, a lab student chimed in with his approval, no one has found any flaws with the base process (or it would have been LOUD & CONSTANT) disapproval & links to REPUTABLE metallurgy sites to correct what they disagreed with...

There is even two electrical induction annealers currently testing that have presented issues they encountered, and they were given POSSIBLE solutions to those issues, one reported it worked, haven't heard back from the other... (Probably working, not entertaining himself on the internet)

Now, as to your claims,
I have posted pictures & instructions on how to turn the China made induction unit heads into annealers,
I have posted pictures & sources for power supplies,
I have posted the difference between solid, tubing coils and their specific uses.
I believe I was the first to suggest a ferrite for a builder that was having entire case heating issues (field too big & diffused),
I was the first to suggest Litz wire instead of common conductors for coils,

Either I'm really scary smart & clairvoyant to boot,
Or l've simply spent countless hours researching & building these things after seeing them in use at the big brass manufacturing plants and been attempting to reproduce what I saw on a small scale...

You choose, IQ of 2,000 & clairvoyant OR, home experimenter that stole a good idea and is trying to work out the details?
(Hint: Not a tough choice)

As for my capabilities, I don't see you posting up pictures of your personal cartridge manufacture, your own personal pin press drawing machines, or it's production.
When you can produce your own cartridge cases from roll brass stock, then we might have something to compare notes on...

Since I CAN produces cases from roll stock, and have posted the product in transition from roll stock to formed cases,
One would ASSUME that I might know about the annealing process since that case has to be annealed a minimum of 4 times.
'Immersion' annealing is how the cases are annealed, steel or ceramic pellets heated to the target annealing temp, cases immersed in those heated pellets (mass) for a given amount of time.

Immersion annealing IS NOT what we are doing here, or you could simply crank the oven up and throw the cases in for a couple hours... (Some people actually do that, but they don't talk about it much because the 'Internet Experts' rag on endlessly about the dogma of annealing & 'Soft' case heads)

It's your choice, believe in what you want, buy what you want, but if you are going to make big claims about 'Perfect' then be prepared for peer review since you WILL have to prove it...
And since you don't own any of the annealing machines discussed, proof might be difficult!...
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Old June 29, 2017, 02:57 PM   #110
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Ha ha , LOL . So I've been seeing this thread in the hand loading section grow page after page . I've been thinking to my self "man" they must be talking about some VERY important and scientific stuff in there for that thread to be so big/long I should check it out . Turns out nope , just the same old annealing arguments . I mean there has been some good info but this annealing debate on forums is starting to get old , or is it just me
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If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old June 29, 2017, 02:57 PM   #111
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JH what you have not posted is any data showing the performance of your DIY unit as far as consistency of anneal using any accepted method be it either grain structure or hardness or real world tests showing it can bring SD's of velocities back to the factory level. Not that I have seen at least. If you have link me the thread and I will be happy to look at it.

Show me your data proving you are getting consistent results by waving your cases around inside what is nothing than a energy source you cannot see, feel or touch and I will reconsider that method. Right now it appears to be no more accurate, consistent, or repeatable than closing your eyes while holding a case into a gas flame with a pair of pliers. The only consistency is the timing

Some here have made some wild claims as far as to the price of a AMP and how it can is adjusted for various cases and more unsubstantiated claims on the units design and testing procedures. I won't speculate on why but I do have a gut feeling


Like I been saying all along I could care less about the method I am just looking for consistent results and wondering if it really matters on the firing line. I'll be starting my informal study tomorrow using factory fresh .204 brass and 3 year old brass that I have no idea how many times it has been fired but I do know it has never been annealed using any method. It is only going to be 100 yard shooting so group sizes are irrelevant other than for practice and technique. I am only interested in the ES and SD numbers

I did run some numbers on a .260 load I use and with a ES of 50 my POI would vary by .1 inch at 100, .8 at 300 and 3.9 inches at 600 using velocities of 2775 to 2825 for a 140 grain bullet with a BC of .521
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Old June 29, 2017, 04:25 PM   #112
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I mean there has been some good info but this annealing debate on forums is starting to get old , or is it just me
Not just you, this subject has deteriorated to the level of discussing religion and politics.

It was thought provoking at first though and if nothing else I have discovered how little SD really matters. Isn't that behind the point of doing annealing? yeah I know case life is in there also but how many here have worn out a case to the point the neck splits as you reload it ? Keep in mind top the line 308 brass is a buck a pop. For most of us isn't it cheaper and easier to toss and replace every 5 - 10 loads?

Thanks to all for helping me helping to focus my energy and money on what will really help my shooting improve

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/0...erall-summary/

with that I am out of this one.
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Old June 29, 2017, 06:58 PM   #113
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Appologies to Jeephammer and Unclenic

You two were in this deeper than most of us could understand. It was US that turned this into a beginners question and answer session, I learned a lot myself. Thank both of you.
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Old June 29, 2017, 07:41 PM   #114
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The guys paying $3 to $20 a case for exotic or antique calibers might disagree with the assessment cases are 'Cheap', say the guys searching for antique .45-120 Creedmore made by Sharps for about 10 years back in the 1880s for instance, when you find it, it's usually very old and runs over $20 a case, and splits shortly there after...

Or the guys buying .338 Lapua mag brass now. 338 is REAL popular right about now...
Try finding NEW, top end manufacture .338 Lapua brass for $1 each.

Then there is an absolute fact that brass is only *NEW* once, you can anneal and make it very close to 'Like New', but it's only *NEW* until you fire it the fist time...

Annealing is one process with a lot of vairables (moving parts) that make up a small part of much bigger puzzle...
Case preparation, fitting the chamber, finding the primer, powder & bullet the particular rifle likes,
Figuring out the best powder charge, the best seating depth, to crimp or not to crimp and how much,
How much neck hold the case has on the bullet,
All parts of the bigger puzzle.

Since you can manually see how much powder is going in the case, most guys understand that,
Since you can manually see bullet seating depth, or gauge the chamber to see your setback from the throat or lands, they understand that.
Since you can manually see results trying different primers, they understand that.

When you anneal, you CAN NOT see the microscopic changes in the brass (in the macro world) and you very well might need a computer aided program to tell changes in overall pattern performance, they just don't get that... Unless it's broken into 'Bite Size's or 'Digestable' segments.

If I threw the entire vocabulary alone at annealers, they would be lost right off the bat.
The metallurgy vocabulary, the electromagnetic vocabulary, etc is confusing at best and gibberish at worst,
Then there is the common useage of some words compared to the scientific useage of some words that cause confusion.
I TRY to use plain English most times, since using scientific definitions in a common launguage forum is simply showing off when it's not absolutely needed.

Litz wire, Ferrite, etc are all things I tried to introduce into these conversations gradually, explaining what they did, rather than the scientific definition of how they did the work.
I started with induction, which there is at least 3 scientific definitions for,

Specifically electromagnetic induction as applied to heating electrically resistance conductive materials.

That's a mouth full for anyone, no matter how much training they have in the electrical field!
How about just heating metal, in this case, to anneal brass cases...

If you want to try a ferrite, simply say its there to 'Focus' the magnetic field,
I'm not sure a 16 page dissertation on dissipation & realignment of trainsient inductive magnetic fields is necessary, neither is explaining that a ferrite's base function is to absorb & cancel radiated magnetic fields, or to provide a magnetic field attractant to draw flux lines through specific windings.
For annealing purposes, that's just gibberish.

Simply stated the ferrite ring with a gap cut into it, creating a 'C' out of a ring, will 'Focus' the magnetic field is sufficient since that's what we are using it for...

This isn't breaking any new scientific ground by any stretch of the imagination,
It's simply using what's commonly available to get what we want, and this stuff is all over the surplus market for cheap, where just a few years ago it would have cost us thousands,
In which case I would have said break out the torch, that crap is too expensive, and complicated since you would have had to build from scratch starting with loose components...

Now the assemblies come set up, preassembled, ready to hook up & use, and they come dirt cheap!
I don't see a down side to using them, but others might think 'Good Enough' is OK, or it's too complicated to hook positive to positive, negative to negative marked terminals and give up...
Still others will convince themselves that even though virtually the entire brass manufacturing industry has switched to induction annealing, that it simply doesn't work, a passing fad, or some other nonsense...

You have to drag some people kicking & screaming out of the past, others you can't dislodge at all...

I REALLY don't care *IF* or *HOW* people anneal (or anything else for that matter),
What I do care about is the people claiming this won't work at all, or it won't work any better than rubbing two sticks together to make fire opposed to using a flame thrower!

There are people that still believe the Earth is flat, man never made it into space, that airplanes are impossible,
'Beliefs' don't make good science,
And good science can't make someone willfully ignorant update their beliefs,
To try is the height of stupidity.
(Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig)

So believe what you want, buy what you want, heat to what ever temprature you see fit, anneal or don't anneal, makes no difference to me...

I won't even notice, I'll be busy with actual annealing machines, actual testing equipment, doing actual annealing and testing to see if it returns negative, neutral or positive results...

Since I don't live in a hypothetical world, failure, negative or neutral results are always possible, right along with the positive.

I just won't 'Believe' it was a big win for me when I didn't actually DO anything, just debated endlessly and finally decided to 'believe' it was a big win...
(Or 'Biggly' Win these days... )
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Old June 29, 2017, 08:42 PM   #115
JeepHammer
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Scatterbrain, no problem...
I spend a large portion of my life with two kinds of people,
The fan boys that think the suspension products my employer makes & sells have mystical powers, can cure the common cold, predict winning lottery numbers & once they have the 'Precious' supermodels will fall at their feet,
OR,
The internet Nerd Boys that will endlessly criticize the use of Deriln over Teflon, chromoly over some exotic 'Un-Obtainum' material that doesn't even exist yet.

Both have one thing in common,
Neither have owned a vehicle with a top end suspension, have worked with anything close to the materials or components we produce, or probably ever will...

My observation about the difference between 'Nerds' & 'Geeks'...
Nerds are huge reserviors of random facts, useless, disjointed facts they are more than willing to throw out in any conversation, asked for or not....

Geeks have connected the dots and actually get things done,
Sometimes not with the best care or quality, but they have produced SOMETHING, and they often build on that foundation by running into problems then seeking out sloutions.

I like Geeks! You never know what's next, but one thing for sure, they are going to DO SOMETHING, and it's usually not boring!
(Keep a fire extinguisher & first aid kit handy!)

Back to the day job,
The guys that do throw down $20,000 for a suspension that will pull 2 G on the skidpad usually HAVE owned a vehicle worth throwing $20,000 at the suspension and have owned (built or bought) previous high end suspensions...
So they know what they are looking at, and know improvements when they see them.

Same deal here, you have to get past the guys spouting the same old dogma,
The guys that have nothing better to do than argue to entertain themselves,
The guys that aren't keeping up with the conversation, etc.

A few will keep up, ask questions, actually listen to the answers, seek reliable information to educate themselves, and those are the guys I like to hang out & deal with...
There is a reason I hide in the shop, hang with engineers, machinists, enthusiastic learners,
You don't have to explain things 100 times since they are listening the FIRST time.

Although I can point to the large manufacturers using electromagnetic induction for neck annealing more and more frequently, that doesn't soak into some because they don't realize there are only two reasons for a big industry to change it's processes,
1. More efficient, less cost.
2. Better results.

Every country has brass manufacturers, so US can't compete in the economics department when others pay their employees 10 cents a day.
The ONLY reason for a US manufacturer changes things is better quality.

With electrical annealing in US manufacturing plants, it's both, better product & lower costs.

I'm not reinventing the wheel here, it's already being done, right now, in mass production, all over the country.
What I tried to do was bring the IDEA to the table for home reloaders,
And to break down it's advantages FOR the home reloaders.

The specifics of each type or component we get to when it comes up...

Glad to hear you learned something, or it at least opened up a possibility for you.
Feel free to ask questions you might have, but be aware, I'm NOT the world's best at this,
I don't have an electrical engineering degree, I didn't get a phD in brass metallurgy, and I can't predict next week's winning lottery numbers either...

What I offer is a lot of hard earned experience, some pearls of wisdom (usually stolen from my grandparents), and I can usually point you in the direction of a reliable source for specific advanced educational information.
Better the experts get it right than me guessing at things I'm not sure of...

I can also play the devil's advocate,
Like clearing up the waters muddied up by advertising propaganda, asking things like, "Are you REALLY so interested in this you are willing to take the samples, prepare the samples, buy the magnifier, spend money on a Hardness tester, etc.?
Dedicate about 6 months to research & learning what you are looking at, then spending the time to do the work?

If the answer is yes, (or your OCD takes over), then I'll help where I can...
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Old June 30, 2017, 12:20 PM   #116
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Let me give you an example of what a geek can do. I had one year of college, the rest is self equation.

About 10 years ago we had to replace a Fan Drive unit called a VFD though Inverter is another word for it.

They take AC voltage, turn it into DC, then rebuild the A/C out of an Inverter (clever name see) but its controllable as to both voltage level and frequency .
That is also what an Uninterruptable Power Supply ( UPS) is but you have batteries sitting on the DC link to take up the power flow if the rectified goes out

In short its an easy way to run a A/C motor at variable speed (many fan systems are constant pressure and that changes as the air boxes in the rooms open and close, works for pumps moving varying gallonnage as well)

Upshot was a motor that had run for 15 years with one bearing change began to loose bearings (more to it, it was several motors but this one had a real old VFD with no problems)

When all was said and done, after a lot of investigation and research, I came to the conclusion that the bearing grease was being decoyed by arching though the balls (as was the races and bearings.

I was then able to use that and refine a search and fine one person in the entire country that had worked on that.

Literally millions of motors run by VFD and the motor companies and the VFD companies don't say squat, its all just fine if your wiring insulation is the right type (VFD don't want to tell the truth you need protection and add to your cost, the motor people don't want to add to their cost by selling the right setup for the VFD applicant, its special, no where near all motors need it)

That was crap.

It took time, but I found out that there was two solutions.

One was a ceramic hybrid bearing (ceramic balls and steel races) and another was to put an arch ground on the motor shaft to give it a easier patch and quit doing the Bearing

Pretty hard to mount that grounding device unless the motor was designed for it.

The engineer I had discussion with recommend both as a 100% guaranteed solution

I went with the ceramic ball, got a failure with a Toyota made one, but SKF also had one (more expensive) that came through, never another problem.

Never had another failure. Stopped 6 other motors from failing.

Now you beginning to see some mfgs of equipment that have VFDs offering ceramic hybrid bearings.

What changed: Switching speed. The original VFD were slow, now they have faster and much cheaper using IBGT and not SCR and they raise a rotor shift voltage up to 50 volt (yep I measureed it). That is enough to arch, little tiny ones, thousands of times a minute and it wrecks both the grease and the races.

How did I finally realize that, I was using all my senses and experience and smelled the odd looking grease one day as I could see it was bad but why?????? We can run motors 24 hours a day 7 days a week before we wear out a bearing.

It smelled like the ozone off an electric Trane. Hmmm, what causes that, yep arching.

You don't have to be a genius, you just need persistent and faith in yourself.
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Old June 30, 2017, 12:28 PM   #117
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I have to laugh.

The post by howndawag was all long range hunters.

How about us hole knocker who like to shoot tiny groups at 100 to 300 yards?

Then where to the percentage -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- to?

Wind calling: Zero

Range: we know what it is, zero

Cartridge: Hmmmm - I saw what made the move to 308 so popular. 1/10 of an inch at most. Ok, if I am Tubbs maybe. If not the 06 still works good.

Hand loads and precessions 95% ?

Assumes you can shoot that good!

And I like to save money long term so keeping my cases and not throwing away for a small cost and time in annealing with an Annie is worth it.
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Old June 30, 2017, 06:08 PM   #118
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Electrical arc is wicked!
Doesn't care how hard the metal is, just eats right through it.
When intentional, it will eat right through anything conductive in short order.
It's called Electric Discharge Machinig (EDM).

For years, I removed broken hard bolts, drills, taps, stuff others wouldn't tackle, it was a real money maker for a fledgling shop since it was simple & fast.
Had one home made unit based on a battery charger, a second the welder powered.

Rock hard bearing material doesn't stand a chance against EDM, hard knife blades, ballistic armor plate, doesn't matter how hard, it doesn't stand a chance.

Your catch of that Discharge through the bearings saved countless repairs/replacements since no steel bearing was going to stand up to the discharge.

We use EDM now for making odd shapes, simply have the EDM electrodes made in the odd shape we need and bore the hole, just that simple!
With a wire electrode & CNC you can make ANY shape, try that with a round drill or square broach!
Makes those odd shaped bracket holes & slots a snap, and the EDM makers claim tolerances down to the millionth of a inch... can't vouch for those claims, but it can be remarkably accurate.
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Old June 30, 2017, 06:30 PM   #119
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I use a test fixture, simply a barrel blank about 2" across and a 1,500 pound bench full of rocks, bolt it down and shoot a test group.
Takes the human out of the test group, and I simply didn't turn down the barrel blank, less work for me.
The action is a large ring Mauser 98, they used to be a dime a dozen 40 years ago, and they are rigid as all get out, controlled round push feed doesn't hurt when you are trying to finger load while bent over.
I have a Remington heavy barrel that came in an HS precision stock for .223 could not stand that stock! The stock got trashed, the action & barrel does fine for testing.

The test groups for each batch are often so similar I have to use a buddy's target program to tell if there were any real changes.
'Inconclusive' is the best way to describe 0.010" holes larger than the bullet diameter, and it's more than I can gauge with a magnifying glass.

It's all in what you are looking for, I take it to extremes, but Case lonjevity is a perfectly acceptable reason, even if you shoot 10 cent each Milbrass, the less than 1 cent annealing resets the clock on a 10 cent Milbrass, you are 9 cents up with each brass, and it simply can't hurt consistancy in sizing of several times used brass!
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Old July 2, 2017, 10:53 AM   #120
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The gift that keeps on giving!
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Old July 3, 2017, 01:18 PM   #121
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It seems that people anneal case necks to restore neck tension to enhance uniformity, as well as to prevent neck cracking. I've taken to retiring cases that lose neck tension - LC .223 brass after about 8 firings - and putting it in my "practice brass" pile which is for single-load / single-fire standing practice where poor neck tension has minimal effect.

This is not complete - for one thing there is no micro of new, unshot brass because I did not feel like sacrificing a brand new case, and didn't have a new case from the same year / lot anyway.

The two cases I did use were LC 84 which had been fired at least 10 times, from my "practice brass" pile.

I did not get a composition on these cases I used so that is another point of incompleteness. I believe it to be C26000 70-30 Cartridge Brass but it might be something else that is close.

I cut one case into 4 strips on a Buehler Isomet diamond saw, kept one strip as it was, took one and dipped the neck (only the neck) into a molten salt bath at 800º F for 10 seconds, put a third piece into the molten salt at 800ºF and held for 1 hour, heated the salt bath to 1,000ºF and put a fourth piece in for 1 hour.

The molten salt bath was 50% sodium nitrate / 50% potassium nitrate, which is Class 2 per MIL-S-10699B (free from everyspec.com). Bath temp was monitored with a type K thermocouple and verified with a Fluke infrared thermometer.

The second case - also LC 84 with poor neck tension - I held the case head and twirled the case neck in a propane torch flame for ~ 8 to 10 seconds (count of ten) - until my fingers started to get hot. It did not get red or glow. Cut a strip out of it to mount with the first four.

All the strips were mounted in styrene, ground flat on 180 grit silicon carbide paper, then 240 grit, 400 grit, 600 grit, followed by 6 µ diamond on a nylon cloth, and finished on 0.05 µ aluminum oxide on Buehler MicroFloc cloth to remove scratches. It is true that grinding produces damage layers, but sequential grinding on finer media removes each damage layer and produces a shallower one.

Aside: there are 25.4 µm (microns) to 0.001" so the solid particles in 6 µm diamond paste are around 0.00024" and the 0.05 µm alumina is about 0.00002" if I did the arithmetic right. The point is that you are cutting, not burnishing, but you cut really shallow layers at the end so the damage is removed and true structure revealed upon etching.

By now any Physicists reading this are upset. I apologize for using the term "microns" for "micrometers" - but to everyone but Physicists, a micrometer is a tool used to measure things, and a millionth of a meter (10^-6 meter) is a micron. I know "micron" is not a really word, but everyone uses it.

The mount was etched in ASTM E407 # 29 - 1 gram potassium dichromate + 4 mL sulfuric acid in 50 mL water followed by #34 - 5 grams ferric chloride + 50 mL HCl in 100 mL water.

Vickers microhardness indents were made at 500 gram load per ASTM E 384. All the measurements and micros are at the neck region of the strips, not the shoulder or any other part of the case.

Another aside: Everyone knows that grams are mass and force is in Newtons, but I'm sorry, all the instruments are calibrated in "grams load" and the reporting convention is e.g. HV500 (hardness Vickers @ 500 gram load). This is because on Earth and one gravity is one gravity, so the force (in Newtons) exerted by 500 grams mass is the same everywhere. Different on the moon or Mars.

You can use Table 4 in ASTM E140 to convert Vickers hardness to Rockwell B (HRB) but there is no tabulated conversion to yield strength or tensile strength.


This is the case as it was, after firing at least 10 times and no annealing. Fine grain, about 189 HV500


This is the strip that saw 10 seconds in 800º F salt. Not much different, 176 HV500 so it did see a little recovery, no recrystallization or grain growth


This one was held for one hour at 800ºF. Lots of grain growth, softened to 89 HV500 I would call it ruined.


This on was held on hour at 1,000ºF. More grain growth, softened to 67 HV500; even more ruined.



This was held in the torch flame ~10 seconds, until my fingers on the case body/head started to get too hot. It is down to 112 HV500 and the grain growth is not excessive.


I don't think any of this proves much of anything but it was fun. My boss was amused that I wanted to do it, gave his OK for me to use the lab on the weekend.


PS JeepHammer someone did let me try a USB microscope they had and I was crushed - I couldn't see anything very well. I have to keep looking for something to pinch hit for an actual metallograph.
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Old July 4, 2017, 08:24 AM   #122
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great post Bobcat.

I briefly considered the molten salt method for annealing but the risk of fire and explosion were too great. It's not something I want to do at home or would recommend for others to try outside of a engineering lab

I knew that a lot of really great shooters have been using the torch method for too many years for it to be "ruining" cases. While I gather from your post and pics is that while it is possible to do so you would really have to go out of your way and make an effort to screw up.

Now that I know that the my standard annealing practice will not have any major effect on case hardness what I am curious about is whether the minor changes brought about will have enough effect on the velocities spread to affect the vertical dispersion.

Thanks again for taking the time and effort to bring some actual data into the conversation. Oh and thank your boss for me also.

On that note, I hope everyone has a pleasant and safe 4th
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Old July 4, 2017, 04:54 PM   #123
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hounddawg: I thought you left? off chasing Raccoons or something. (grin)

Bob: Thank you for the experimentation.

What is the HV of a new unfired case?

Grain structure look on same?

I like you over did it. That's often a good way to get things in perspective (my next step is to overdo the test cases with the 800 deg Temp on it and see how it reactive vs a glow (which I know is no scientific but its an indicator)

Interestingly while I am still just stabilizing cases (undershoot) the melt of the 750 and the 800 look the same melt though the 800 just a bit latter (have not dug in deep yet, just some quick tests when the 800 came in)

Per JH thought that is good, not remote hint of smoke or going black.

So far, despite repeated testing (clean up then re-test) no cases have taken on more discoloration. I could be wrong but I do think both a color change and the finish being different that's an gross indicator that its gone too far.

That tough choice between experimenting and getting brass ready to reload (and keeping up with the house work, some major autos work, lawn etc) and I have to get the head lamp lights covers cleaned up.

So with that and how its looking per someone who has delved into this to the max, I am feeling pretty good.

With JH advice I slowed the process down a bit and its all coming out very uniform as to the melt rate all taking place at the same time.

I still have to get my shims or jigs for the 30-06 and 7.5 so I can process that quickly. So far 7.5 is still one fired and only to play with, 30-06 is stray cases I am finding that I hand hold to get them fairly even with the ones I did before.

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Old July 4, 2017, 06:16 PM   #124
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Quote:
hounddawg: I thought you left? off chasing Raccoons or something. (grin)
I was just sitting back watching it waiting until someone offered some thing more substantial to comment on other than opinion and conjecture


Quote:
This was held in the torch flame ~10 seconds, until my fingers on the case body/head started to get too hot. It is down to 112 HV500 and the grain growth is not excessive.
I liked this in particular, it assured me that my socket and torch method has never ruined a case

sounds like a good starting point for me to starting to gather data next week on annealing and velocity consistency. Nothing as scientific as what Bobcat45 did. Just a casual study comparing 20 round batches of annealed vs unannealed using cases that have had various numbers of reloadings and various numbers of anneals and compare those to factory fresh cases.

I will try annealing some at 8 , 9 , 10, 11, and 12 seconds using an automated machine with a regulalted torch to see which if any get me to where I want to be. This all could just turn out to be a giant waste of time money and effort solving a problem that does not exist. A huge nothing burger to use a media term
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Old July 5, 2017, 02:55 PM   #125
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The NO HINT of 'Color' or 'Glowing' with a torch was probably more telling than the 'Time' since no target temp on the brass was given,
Which is what I've been saying all along, better 'Undercooked' than ruined, and if you see 'Glow' of any kind it's probably ruined...

I thought that 'Dawg' had figured it out and was going to ride off into the sunset too, only been saying he was 'Done' for the last 4 pages!
Still carrying that ego around I guess...

As for the USB cameras, I didn't give them much thought until the 5 megapixel versions came out fairly recently.
I use a scaleable calibrated Leica microscope (old, so no camera provision) for most work, including Rockwell testing. Came with the Rockwell testing equipment and works very good, but I wouldn't want to buy one new!
I've tried a couple cheap adapters but they don't work, and the $800 Leica adapter is more than I want to spend on this...

The grid scale lines zoom in with magnification, and that's handy so I don't make math mistakes trying to figure out what the scale is at each magnification.
Didn't intend on that, but with second hand equipment there is suprises, some good, some not...
I guess buying it from an old lab paid off this time, not so much on other stuff (rotary pin punch comes to mind, my 'Bargain' turned out to be a money pit).

You used F. instead of C., But you used a Vickers scale machine, that's an odd combination!
Usually it's Vickers & metric or Rockwell & English standard...
I do everything in English standard just so I can drive myself crazy later with the metric conversions!!!
Nothing like a little insanity around deadline time!

Like RC20 and I have been saying, with electrical annealing, you see almost no color change in the brass, where stress relieving and slight recovery with gas shows an annealing color change.
I noticed color change in just stress relieving with gas, no color change when using alcohol burner, no real color change with electrical.

When I got color change with gas, I also saw pits where iron and unknown elements had burned off. Iron burn leaves a pretty distinctive mark, while the other stuff I have no idea since it just left a pit and no residue.

Electrical annealing at reasonable levels doesn't seem to burn off the iron, but you can get carried away and actually see where iron has melted a void around itself, then settled to the bottom.
That kind of makes sense because magnetic heating is going to heat the resistive iron faster, but not provide an ignition source.
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