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Old June 25, 2017, 01:12 PM   #76
JeepHammer
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The Dyno I use is capable of 1/100 pound increments repeatably.
It's purpose isn't failure analysis, it's checking pressure flow through multi-step valving in a shock absorber.
Compression/extension.

This one is specifically built to test magnetic fluid valved shocks, valving rates can be changes several hundred times a second, so it has to be fast and precise.

Case collet in the bottom of the frame, bullet puller on the ram, and either pull or push the bullet in the case.
Movement in 0.001" increments, pressure at any of those increments.
You can watch pressure reduce as surface area reduces when bullet starts moving out of the neck.

Shock valves are VERY small & have several pressure bypass steps often times, and shocks come in all sizes, so it's pretty sensitive and I have free access to it.
(Testing shocks smaller than your little finger for example)
Thank goodness it's pretty well automated or I'd have to bribe an operator...
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Old June 25, 2017, 03:34 PM   #77
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houndawg: Gotcha!

No, I am not using the Gerard, if I was I would be even more conservative and anneal more often as you will loose some precession going though a mechanical device.

And no, I do not know absolutely that its as uniform and perfect as you could hope for. Little in life is.

Notice though on the Lapua and PPU how far down the case the anneal is? The Graf picture and Midway blows up if you highlight it.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/73073

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...eld-box-of-100

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/pr...cat=123&page=2

Its a good 3/8 of an inch down past the shoulder.

It either does not hurt or it helps longevity by the final anneal giving the shoulder area its flex as well.

What I can say is that in all the testing I have done, no matter where the templaq is inside or outside the case. I can creep up on the setting and as it hit (2 second currently and pun intended) the 750 deg templag just melts.

I have 800 on the way. Even that will not be absolute as we don't know if its reactivity is as fast as brass. It might under detect a fast build up like we have.

However, if the 750 just melts and the 800 not at all, we are about as close to the sweet spot as the world lets us get.

And I do disagree on cost.

You can dismiss it, and I agree its miner, but in the long run the propane costs will exceed the Annie costs and the AMP costs if you do enough brass.

More you use, the sooner the ROI.

Not that I am trying to persuade you in what direction to go, but it is relevant.

Saving $100 on a gun is an immediate warm and fuzzy, as a target shooter, its better to save on ammo, the gun may see $5000 in ammo go through it in its life (target shooting easily - hunting no, then it is cost of gun that has more weight)
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Old June 25, 2017, 03:44 PM   #78
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I think this has some interest, not for this but an example of how different brass can be and some very unexpected ranking.

Scroll down until you get to the 303 case test failure data.

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...ressures/page2
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Old June 26, 2017, 09:27 AM   #79
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well thanks to Jeephammer I now know more about induction than I ever wanted to know. I won't even attempt to try and make this a coherent post before my first cup of coffee so I will just list some bullet points

The Amp machine was designed specially for annealing cartridge brass. In their initial development they used thermal imaging camera but switched to Vicker's hardness testing. The machine was designed by a father and son team. The father was in the firearms industry and the son is a engineer and both are shooters and reloaders.

https://www.ampannealing.com/about/


Although the website for Fluxeon says the Annie was designed for reloading the first two generations of the machine were designed for neon sign construction and a you can still buy a hand held wand type coil for the Annie for doing just that.

http://fluxeon.com/heaters.html


Placement of the case in the coil and as well as the type of coil does make a difference. Of the coils available for the Annie I would prefer the split ferrite flux concentrator. The helical coil would spread the heat over too large a area for me to be comfortable with. In gas heating terms the helical coil would be a "rosebud" tip on the torch while a flux concentrator does just what it's name implies and concentrates the heat into a smaller area

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXMy...annel=Fluxtrol

temperatures can also be modulated by the frequency and higher frequencies are better for rapid heating of small parts. From a laymans point of view I would guess that a frequency of 100 - 450 kHz would be used for cartridge brass since at .016 thickness little depth penetration is needed. Certainly less penetration would be needed than say if the machine was to be used to bend meta rods or glass tubes

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/...ction-heating/

All in all after doing a lot of reading I do have to agree that induction is really the ultimate way to for precise controllable heat source. However that would only be true for a machine that is designed, set up and calibrated for that purpose. Otherwise you simply have a very expensive invisible heat source. To anneal a case by holding it neck down inside a induction coil designed to heat metal or glass tubes or rods would be no more precise than using a plumbers torch. Less precise actually since with a plumber torch you can see where the heat is being concentrated and with a induction you would need to either use a thermal imaging camera or do hardness tests to insure that you are heating the parts of the case you want to heat and not heating the parts you do not want to

I can see a Amp annealing machine ending up on workbench before the end of the summer. First I will have to do a bit more testing using but if it suggests that annealing after every load lowers SD's and hopefully group sizes by giving me a more uniform neck tension I will drop the money into one. While the AMP would not be useful for someone who is doing 400 cases or more a week the shooter who shoots an average of 50 - 100 loads per week it seems to be ideal annealer. It was designed by reloaders for reloading and from everything I have can see it looks like they did a excellent job


For those who are already own a induction coil machine you can make a magnetic line viewer with some mineral oil, iron shavings and a clear container. It might or might not be useful to focus the energy where you want it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkSQ...n%20Gittemeier


A $5000 to $35000 thermal imaging camera being or a lab quality hardness tester being ideal for testing and calibration but is out of the question at the hobby level money wise. Otherwise you are just guessing at where the hat is being concentrated and have less precision than you obtain with a 15 dollar plumbers torch. Not trying to burst anyone bubble here but for me that is the only obvious conclusion.

This are just my opinions and I am no engineer so anyone contemplating purchasing a induction machine should do some due diligence and think long and hard before plunking down 500 - 1000 dollars for either a Annie or a AMP.

I am still unsure whether lower SD's will reduce my group sizes and help eliminate flyers at my level of shooting skill. If I were a national level BR or F class shooter I would have a AMP being shipped to me as I type this. As a amateur who shoots high 180's /low 190s strings I am not convinced at this time that it would be worth the money for me. In a month or two I hope to have some empirical evidence with which to make my decision but for now I need to finish my DIY auto system and do a bit of testing before writing the check.
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Old June 26, 2017, 12:45 PM   #80
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The Last Word

??
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Old June 26, 2017, 01:32 PM   #81
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I agree that the Amp is likely to get closer to perfection, but the downside I see to it is that it depends on a fixed program.

If the brass changes or the internals are not consistent, then the program will be off.

It does not have feedback to adjust for "other conditions"

Overall, regardless of cost I prefer the Annie with its tenability.

As my brother found, very inside clean brass had quite different timing than
the dirty brass you have inside from a tumbler cleaner (outside clean)

Hopefully AMP has a bit of built in low bias in their programs.

I think I can cycle Annie faster as well.

In this video, note how far down the case the annealing is done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9rva9uG6Y

One note I have on serious mis-use of Templiq.

You do not want it to go BLACK! A lot think it has to.

I am lucky, I learned many years ago to use their crayon and I know how it is supposed to react (bearings)

What it should do is go from the Bluing dried color to gray, but at least in an Annie, you can clearly see when it melts.

I am currently under annealing a bit and deliberately.

I want to get the 800 Tempiq so I can get the range of 750 melt to 800 melt and set the timer accordingly.

Last edited by RC20; June 26, 2017 at 01:48 PM.
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Old June 26, 2017, 02:08 PM   #82
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I think you just like to argue...

I don't care where the power supply comes from, it's just a high frequency power supply.
That's like arguing WHERE a quarter is made makes a difference how it spends...

The business end is the coil or Ferrite, that's why we talk so much about solid, tubing, Ferrite, shaping, stand off distance, ect.

I used thermal cameras also, old and not so great, but a means to an end.
Doesn't matter if it's camera, thermocouple, or paint, as long as it's around 25*F +/- getting you into about a 50*F range.
Again, arguing about where the quarter was made...

The Amp & Annie are both times switched timed units, both work on the same electrical principals, both do comparable jobs as power/induction units.

The Amp has a closed case & guide, so you can't see what goes on in the 'Magic Box', while the other has an open coil/Ferrite which let's you adapt it to Girard or other feeders, like the endless supply of rotary tables out there.

Amp is a single case feeder, and without a ton of modification, will always be just that, one at a time,
While Annie will adapt to about any of the common, or even home made case feeders with zero issues since the trigger is a simple switch.

One at a time guys with a single die press should be very happy with Amp, once they get done choking on the price.

The guys with progressive presses could very well adapt the Annie to anneal on the processing run, although I perfer to keep the annealing separate from sizing/trimming.

As far as 'Precise' alignment, that's simply a question of non-conductive & heat resistant, anyone of 100 low cost industral application materials out there, making a mandrel is no big deal unless you have never used a drill or saw before...
Potentially cast mandrel using one of YOUR specifically sized brass is very easy, and there is a mandrel more Precise than Amp can produce in bulk...
Fits YOUR cases that came from YOUR DIES.

I could whip out a mandrel turned with the same chamber reamer used on your specific rifle if you were willing to pay for it,
Sizing die, rifle chamber & mandrel for annealing all made with the exact same reamer, couldn't beat that 'Accuracy'....

The POINTS you have missed so far...
1. The case/coil REQUIRE a standoff space, they CAN NOT TOUCH, so 'High Accuracy's mandrels are a moot point.
As long as you have the correct stand off (Gap) and something to keep the case from touching coils or moving around too much, you are fine.

2. Power supply are all pretty much the same, some of the semi-conductor materials last longer, but you have no choice about that when you buy a pre-made unit, you get what the builder used.

3. Coil shape & standoff distance determine how precisely the neck/shoulder gets annealed.
Champfered/deburred case mouths can be seriously overheated simply because they are thinner, while thicker case shoulders need more applied energy to bring them up to target temp.

The entire idea of 'Aiming' a flame is to have the ENTIRE case neck/shoulder reach the target temp FOR EACH, in the same amount of time...

Shaping a Ferrite for EACH size of brass neck/shoulder gets you there, while dropping a case in the Amp just drops EVERY CASE into the same size coil/ferrite with no regard to different size or thickness cases.

4. The Amp pretty much has to use a coil since there is no provision I can see to rotate the case, this is 'General Hearing's, not specifically focused on particular parts of the case, and using a rolling case to even energy application out around the case.

If you are annealing for longevity & easier forming in the sizing die, that's fine,
But if you want specifics, there isn't a provision on the Amp to do that.

If you want an Amp, then buy an Amp! It's your money and it's what you want...
I wouldn't tell you for a second not to buy something you want.

Don't try to sell everyone on an Amp as the 'Last Word' in annealing, RC20 and a couple others have already progressed past what an Amp can do by simply shaping ferrites to better fit their SPECIFIC case calibers & applications, it's not just me that's found the limits of a generic type coil annealer...

Open coil is great for general heating, I have three large units and they work GREAT for the applications they are applied to.
I just don't find the open coil type annealer to be precise or adaptable enough for high precision annealing.
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Old June 26, 2017, 02:32 PM   #83
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RC20 gets it...
He has found first hand some of the vairables simply because he bought an induction annealer and went to work!

VAIRABLES are always at hand & always changing...
*IF* we had stuck to any fixed DOGMA about any of this, there wouldn't be these discussions or debates!
Everyone is finding how things work BEST FOE THEM WITH THEIR PARTICULAR SET OF VAIRABLES.

Its brass washing weather at my house, cement mixer, bulk bins weighing between 2,500 & 3,000 pounds,
The vibratory tumbler that does 100 rounds at a time doesn't work for me...
Cement mixer, about 10 or 15 gallons of brass, 60 pounds of steel pins & a lot of soap & water!

*IF* I stuck to dogma, I'd wash them ONCE and proceed.
They get a couple washings and the OUTSIDE looks good,
Dump in the pins and the water is BLACK again from the crud coming off the INSIDE of the cases.

DOGMA says the inside doesn't have to be clean, but that's not what I find when annealing, Like RC20, crud on the inside effects annealing time.
Crud on the inside cooks INTO the brass when reabsorption of the broken slivers & stray molicules happens.

If you are just stress relieving, then no issues with dirty brass, go any farther and you introduce contaminates into the brass grain structure as it consolidates.

I'm wondering what 'Levels' of dirty brass Amp has programs for, and how you determine how dirty your brass is so you use the correct program...
Or is it one of those vairables they haven't made allowances for?

How do they make allowances for brass formula changes from different years when civilian brass doesn't have year of manufacture on the headstamp?

RC20, when you try to match factory ammo with an induction annealer, as to how far down the case the annealing goes... DON'T!!!!

You have no idea if that case was gas annealed, induction annealed, if the case was standing up in the gas, laying on its side, or if an open coil or Ferrite annealer was used.
Trying to match the heat effect zone transition line is a mistake and a waste of time.

I annealing about everything just past the lower shoulder bend, depending on brass caliber, brand & case wall thickness that line will move up and down with no other changes to the unit or process.

When I'm annealing my own premium (non-crimped) brass, I will insert or remove the case a little more here & there just so the heat effect some doesn't land in the same place every time, but I'm not sure that's doing anything harmful/benifical to the brass.
It's a hold over from steel heat treating, keeping the HAZ moving, but a I actually don't know if it's needed on brass.

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Old June 26, 2017, 02:35 PM   #84
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Quote:
I agree that the Amp is likely to get closer to perfection, but the downside I see to it is that it depends on a fixed program.

If the brass changes or the internals are not consistent, then the program will be off.

It does not have feedback to adjust for "other conditions"

Overall, regardless of cost I prefer the Annie with its tenability.

As my brother found, very inside clean brass had quite different timing than
the dirty brass you have inside from a tumbler cleaner (outside clean)

Hopefully AMP has a bit of built in low bias in their programs.

I think I can cycle Annie faster as well.

In this video, note how far down the case the annealing is done
actually you are dead wrong on the AMPs adjustment. It was designed from the base up to use as a reloading tool. Here is the current database for programming for different cases

https://www.ampannealing.com/settings/

it is pretty comprehensive right down to different settings for different lot numbers of the same case, different programs for 001, 002, and .003 neck turned variants of the same case even. If you have some oddball case like say a .22 Hornet case manufactured by Remington that you want to anneal a .001 neck turned case. Just send it to them they will do all the testing pick a program then enter that case in their database free of charge. Free lab testing of your cases, it does not get much better than that

The Annie on the other hand is adjusted the same way you calibrate using a torch by using a templaq and tweaking the time being heated until the templaq melts and that's it

I will grant you the point on speed but if I wanted speed I would not be inspecting each case checking length, neck chamfer, brushing case necks and everything else that goes into reloading precision ammo. I still am not to the point where I sort cases by volume or bullets by weight nor am I doing neck turning and having my barrels custom chambered and may never get there but I spend a lot of time doing case inspection and prep and another 30 minutes would not make that much of a difference for a old retired guy. If i were annealing after every load the AMP might save me time by not having to calibrate my DIY every run. Annies also need to be calibrated prior to each run also according to their website and manual so no points for them there either

Regarding the the case in the video if you are referring to the rainbow the case looks identical to the never been loaded Lapua cases under my bench. To me that is a positive. Also I thought most posters in the other thread said that the rainbow meant nothing, that neither it's presence nor the lack of meant the case was properly annealed.

I amrepeating myself here but if a induction heater and a propane torch are set up and calibrated using the same method, ie a temp paint, how could one be more precise than the other if when the only adjustment for either is the time spent being heated ?

I know I am starting to sound like a AMP salesman but that is not my intention, I have no dog in this fight since I neither own one or plan to if I can find a more economical alternative. Three days ago if you said induction to me my first thought would have been an electrical motor
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Old June 26, 2017, 04:08 PM   #85
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Quote:
When I'm annealing my own premium (non-crimped) brass, I will insert or remove the case a little more here & there just so the heat effect some doesn't land in the same place every time, but I'm not sure that's doing anything harmful/benifical to the brass.
It's a hold over from steel heat treating, keeping the HAZ moving, but a I actually don't know if it's needed on brass.
hmm sounds a lot like me with a plumbers torch in a darkened room waiting for that faint red glow on that case spinning in the socket in the drill

Don't know why on the hate on the AMP, according to every thing I have read it delivers everything you say you guys been crying you want in to precisely anneal your cases. Even down to free lab testing cases for the proper settings for any sample case you send them. It isn't for production but then precision in anything isn't about speed

If I were doing production I would get one just to have a properly and precisely annealed case to use as a benchmark to see how my production units stacked up in comparison.
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Old June 26, 2017, 04:10 PM   #86
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Well, that's it.
A guy that's not used or owned an induction annealer trying to tell someone that actually owns one and is watching what's going on, adjusting for vairables is the last straw.

This has gone from fan boy enthusiasm to internet troll...

Dawg, when you get your Amp, get a Rockwell tester, learn to mount, section and take mocrographs to CONFIRM what you are quoting from the sales propaganda, then we will have something to talk about again.

You aren't willing to pay attention to anyone WITH EXPERIENCE, just quote Amp, which is sales propaganda for a specific product, and there is no truth in advertising, just hype...
When you can plainly PROVE that common induction annealer with a digital timer is any better than anything else, then we'll have that discussion...

The second half of that is ignorance of the process,
*IF* you send them a lot of 100 of your brass, then you *Might* have enough for a qualifying run for analysis.

Hardness testing isn't the last word, so ONE brass isn't going to do it.
THEY would have to warm up the machine, run a lot of 10 or so for Vickers or Rockwell testing, then section & mount for micrograph, then do the same with another 10, etc, etc, etc....
You sneak up on the 'Optimum' through proper testing, not decide this or that is 'Soft Enough'....

That's what we have been trying to tell you all along!
There is no SPECIFIC hardness that does 100% of the job Everytime.

The difference between you and me is I Rockwell test, I micrograph, I keep track of the personal case batches to see the results of time, I record everything because it *Might* yeild insight into annealing brass over & over again, something not even the manufacturers do since they produce ONCE, then it's yours...

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Old June 26, 2017, 04:23 PM   #87
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I won't get into the personal thing here Jeep but I am not trolling. Nor am I telling anyone how they should or should not do it. No idea where you got that impression

The AMP may just be sales talk. I don't need to use it to know it was designed from the ground up to anneal cartridge brass. I don't need experience to appreciate professional grade lab equipment being used by trained engineers and technicians. I know it is being endorsed by Sinclair which has a steller reputation among precision shooters and good reviews at some reputable precision shooting related web sites. Now if you think you can do better in your home shop with your experience, education level, and whatever testing you can manage to do then go for it I say

you wanted to get people interested in induction based annealing so grats, you did. And I am grateful for that, I may end up switching over
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Old June 26, 2017, 05:20 PM   #88
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I take umbrage about hate thing, what has got your undies in a twist?

I don't hate AMP. I don't hate torches either frankly.

What I did was bring up an aspect that has been revealed and confirmed by two people, that a completely cleaned case with stainless steel pins has a very different heat profile than ones that are tumbler polished/cleaned.

So, you then flip it to hate? Why?

Its something you should ask and have them experiment with and have setting for as the pin cleaning is becoming more common.

That is not hate, its constructive criticism of a product just like we are discussing with all products.

As the settings for heat (time) go up with a completely clean inside, you would wind up under annealed .

If that is hate, then I am the President of the US and thank god I am not, now there is hate.
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Old June 26, 2017, 05:30 PM   #89
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In response to the torch vs Annie and the Templaq.

I did make mention of the heat lag and the accuracy factor there.

It would be nice if you would acknowledges it when someone agrees with a point and says so up front.

Like all tools, the Templaq can be misused or misunderstood or misapplied.

I am discussing two step process with 750 and 800.

I am seeing comments about when you get the burned color that's just right and its not.

I have pointed out with a torch you are spinning a case in a tool and trying to read the Templaq in a dynamic situation and you do not acknowledge that as a valid point.

The nice thing about the Annie is there is no motion, there is no flame and you can see it all going on as nicely as possible.

Frankly I like the Annie approach as I can see the process better and confirm the results without going to the work JH is with harness testing and sectioning.

If I was going to go with an AMP I would want to know where their line is target wise. I would prefer a bit short than too much.

It looks like a great unit, but all equipment has aspect to it that need to be understood to get the right results out of it.

The Annie suits me, the cost suits me and I believe I can get the results I need out of it reliably.

At least keep the discussion respectably and acknowledge points.

A lot of bobbing and dodging in my opinion.
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Old June 26, 2017, 05:37 PM   #90
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JH:

I think this got misunderstood and I do appreciate the warning and concern.

I am not trying to match the lines at all, I was pointing out that it obviously was annealed down that far (and can be but I am not shooting for that)

Your point and Garret was the case should be a bit higher in the coil than you would think.

I am continuing to do the Templaq test both inside and outside the case down past the shoulder while I am changing the variables (coil width)

No Templaq melt at all below the shoulder and just melting inside and outside the case on the neck. Much more uniform as you said it would be. Priori I was getting more uneven melting in the three locations (inside neck, outside neck and on the shoulder)

While I am not going to push it, I think I am conservative at this point, but ok with that as long as I am sort of holding my own until I get the clean case system.

I know you can't tell by the finish entirely, but I am barely if at all getting any color change on the cases now.

I am curious if that is a reasonable read?
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Old June 26, 2017, 06:51 PM   #91
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RC I have acknowledged several of your points I am sorry I missed that one. Also the hate thing for the AMP was not directed at you.

On the spinning part that is all well and good if you are using the helical coil, however if it was hooked up for a production run on a Giraud the case will be spinning regardless of the heat source.

For auto feeders set the time to the shortest and work your way up gradually till the 700 templaq in the neck melts and drops into the pan. I would be checking the templaq when the case drops off the roller device not while it was spinning regardless of heat source. Not as a precise a procedure than I could do if I had access to a testing lab and the training and education to use the equipment there but it will have to do. Too bad I am no longer working where i did about 20 years ago. I am sure I could have gotten some of the lab techs in the engineering lab to run a few samples for me or set me up to do them myself. Most likely they would have sent me on a run to the cafeteria and ran my tests while I was gone or as soon as they had some slack time
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Old June 27, 2017, 08:09 AM   #92
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Dawg, I don't 'Hate' inanimate objects.
I don't love or hate 'Things'.

We have tried to point out to you over & over again, other than the timing information Amp posts on their web site, there isn't much difference in the units between Amp & Annie.
Annie can be a coil or Ferrite unit, while the Amp about has to be a coil unit because the case isn't rotated,
A Ferrite heats a little unevenly if you don't rotate the case.

Other than that, not much difference, power supply, induction units work under the exact same electrical principals, the timers are 1/10 or 1/100 second, both digital & programmable, just not that much difference between the way the units work.

What is different, the Annie doesn't recommend any specific times, and since the Amp comes from a 60 cycle power grid system, the recommended timing is going to be off on a 60 cycle power grid system like the US.

The Amp doesn't allow you to adjust your brass for YOUR particular neck champfer/deburred, even if they have a table for turned neck thickness, they can't possibly compensate for every champfering/deburring tool on the market.

Like was discussed (and apparently ignored since Amp didn't cover it in the sales propaganda), depending on how clean the brass is will move the annealing time around.

There is no possible way YOU, Amp or anyone else can sort out what brass formula is on EVERY brass out there. That one simply CAN NOT be done since the brass manufacturers guard the formulas,
And they change formulas on a regular basis...
There is no way possible to know by headstamp WHEN the brass was made, so no possible way to precisely give 'Last Word' timing information...

Now, I can call BS directly on who ever wrote about 'Perfect' annealing the case side, shoulder, neck & mouth on every brass stuck in it.

That would take VERY carefully adjusted (shaped) ferrites, no possible way a round coil could do it, completely against the law of electro-magnetic Dynamics. Period.
The ONLY way to do it would be with ceramic insulators & heat sinks to protect the other three areas while ONE area was annealed, so you would need 4 sets of heat sinks & insulators for each caliber,
AND you would have to run each case at least 4 times.

At least with a ferrite you can shape it to provide more or less energy to the different areas of the case.
It won't be a ton of difference, but you CAN fairly easily shape the Ferrite to NOT overheat the mouth/neck while more energy gets applied to the THICKER case side shoulder...
The only requirement is rotating the case to even the heating out even more.

Coils are AREA annealing, while ferrites FOCUS the energy on specific areas, to a certain extent.

I don't 'Hate', I just know enough about electro-magnetic link, magnetic eddies, the design of most induction units (since I've built them from scratch, and studied a lot more designs than I built),
I know BS claims when I hear them...
At the very least, Amp is WAY overblowing the capabilities, and if everything you claim is on there website is actually there, it's outright lies...

The next big lesson you need to learn is promotion by web sites, magazines etc is paid for advertising.
Its real easy, anytime you see an article about this or that, simply look for that product's company in the advertisers index.
If you find it there, and you will, you know for sure that product got a bought & paid for spot in the media you see it...

I can name several products that used advertising dollars to buy a 'Reputation', from all those oil additives that got debunked & sued out of existence, to downright silly products, like tinfoil to put in your hubcaps to prevent speeding tickets, toilet tank valves in fuel lines to reduce the amount of fuel an engine uses, to herbal supplements that make your 'Jonson' bigger...
Some people swear by them even though they have been debunked over & over again, like the 'Pain Reliever' that was nothing more than a grill sparker that shocked you.

Nothing like bought & paid for 'Impartial' press coverage!

Again I will stress the Amp CAN annealing cases, but it has ZERO feedback to adjust for YOUR specific brass vairables,
That's why we are talking vairables here, so you have enough education to at least identify the vairables.

As far as brass samples sent to Australia, ONE BRASS DOES NOTHING.
Science REQUIRES a sample LOT to assess an AVERAGE...
A single hardness test does nothing for a proper scientific analysis, you need a sample LOT to identify an average, to test for composition, grain structure, hardness RANGE, ect.
That alone makes me suspect Amp's claims...

YOU haven't been willing to listen to vairables we bring up, simply quoting Amp and discounting the rest.
(Like how clean the brass is)
If Amp is going to give you 'Perfectly' annealed brass, they will be right on the edge of destruction of that brass, as we have discussed here several times...
If they discount a vairable as important as cleaning, then again I suspect the process they are using and I outright dismiss the claims they make, simply because I know better.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, until YOU can hardness test, do micrographs, etc,
YOU have no idea in the world if Amp is doing what they claim or not.

Now, on the other hand, I've not laid hands on an Amp (Yet...), But if/when I do, you can bet I will do that very testing simply because I'm curious,
And *IF* they can back up those almost unbelievable claims, I want to know how they do it...
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Old June 27, 2017, 08:09 AM   #93
scatterbrain
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I wonder if Templaq would harm the AMP. How else would one ever know what temperature the brass got to. Could you assume that the program is correct for any brass condition?
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Old June 27, 2017, 09:23 AM   #94
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@ scatterbrain I don't see how templaq could hurt something where you are basically just lowering a case into a coil so that a magnetic field can be applied to it. The case is not touching anything inside the machine

@ Jeephammer I have no clue as to how an AMP modulates the temperature but it must be some pretty fine control for them to use different program settings for all thier cases. I just looked at their settings page. https://www.ampannealing.com/settings/ and they have over 20 different .308 cartridges and at least 11 different program settings, I stopped counting at 11 there may be more. How each program is different from the other I have no clue and I would suggest that you call or email them. From what little I know of induction heating I remember reading that temperature and penetration can be modulated using frequency also. That may be how they do it, like I said call them and see if they will answer your questions

Operation aside the deal breaker on the AMP for me is the 1 year warranty, if it were 3 or 5 I might be willing to gamble but 1100 dollars for a machine is pretty steep with just a 1 year warranty. The Annie also has a 1 year warranty. Until the manufacturers of these units have a bit more faith in their products I am not going to shell out 500 to 1000 dollars on one

The other deal breaker on any sort of induction machine other than a AMP is the repeatability factor from case to case and run to run with different cartridges. I apologize for the remark on my earlier post but somehow the idea of someone waving a case around inside a magnetic field by hand does not seem to provide any close to repeatability. If I am wrong on that and you have some jig that places the case in the same spot relative to the coil every time then I apologize in advance. Maybe someone can answer whether an Annie automated with a Giraud unit can be set to the exact same position on a case after you switch from .308 to .300 win mag to .223 and back again to .308

For the life of me I just cannot see how induction can possibly produce consistent results unless the case is perfectly located in every instance and heated for the same length of time. If either factor is not consistent then the heating is going to be different. Maybe that is wrong and just my ignorance of how these things work so correct me if I am wrong on this, I am here to learn.
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Old June 27, 2017, 11:51 AM   #95
RC20
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JH: Should you have some color change in the brass?

I am being conservative, getting very little if any.

I know color change can mean too much as well, just should it have some?
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Old June 27, 2017, 11:52 AM   #96
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houdnawg:

I would say more taken kicking and screaming down the road of knowledge but some allowances for lack of perspective I suppose..

You keep repeating that the torch and the ferrite are the same and I keep repeating they are not.

One they are two different ways of heating transmission. An oven is not a Microwave.

And rotating a case while trying to read templig is difficult at best and certainly not possible to assess while its spinning, regardless of what people say, you cannot multi task.

What people call multi tasking is Rapid Sequential Tasking. In this case you have to be able to see the templiq through the torch, watch it melt, then remove the case from the heat source.

The Annie you push the button and you just WATCH the templiq. As you are using a sacrificial case, you focus purely on that and adjust your timer and repeat until its where you want it to be.

You do the same with just a streak inside the neck. If it just melts as the timer stops, you are in good area. Maybe not perfect, but good and good is fine in this situation.

You repeat as many times as needed.

Coating the entire case end with Templaa (as I have seen done) causes a barrier and that changes how the heat is transferred.
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Old June 27, 2017, 01:31 PM   #97
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@ RC no offense meant here but I have considerable heat transfer theory training starting with Navy nuclear reactor school in Orlando circa 1972 and 21 years operating those bad boys following that. At one point in my career I spent three years as a instructor teaching thermodynamics to the new students.

After retirement from the Navy the next 15 years was spent in industrial and manufacturing climate control where I worked on everything from machines that spin carbon fiber into wide body jet fuselages to 150 foot long paint ovens in the automotive industry where a degree or two of temp or percent or two of humidity change meant the paint was ruined.

That aside the big elephant in the room for me is case placement and data collection. If you want to believe that you are getting a consistent heat transfer by holding a case inside a magnetic field in different place each time then that is your prerogative but without some sort of empirical or physical testing of the results you are just operating on blind faith. I don't need a degree in physics to look at diagrams of magnetic fields and see that the lines of force are not consistent in a magnetic field from point A to point B to point C, D , E etc so neither will be the energy transfer be consistent unless youare in the same spot each and every time. If you want to make sure the heat is being applied to the correct spot you had best drop a few thousand on a thermal image system to see where that case is being heated and devise a jig to ensure consistent placement. A calibrated lab quality hardness tester and microscope with some formal training on the operation of such would not hurt either Without those induction annealing is the equivalent of a blind man sticking a case into the heat source hoping it is in the same spot each time and getting the same amount of energy. That is just common sense not trolling
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Old June 27, 2017, 03:20 PM   #98
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I don't want anyone to take these posts as a slam on either inductiuon in general or any specific machine.

If I had a induction machine with a standard coil sitting on my bench right now the first thing I would is rig up a case holder to dangle the case down inside the coil neck first just to make sure it is in exact the same spot in the coil time after time. Then calibrate it using templaq inside the neck and adjusting the timing and if necessary the positioning while at the same time use 400 templaq on the case body to see how far down towards the case head the heat is traveling.

I am confident that with basic carpentry tools and a few hours shop time anyone could make a jig that would give a repeatable anneal using a basic induction coil system and get consistent results.

skip to the 39 second mark in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjI7...ce%20Marangoni

Notice how the bar begins to heat in the middle of the coil then spreads outward towards the top and bottom of the coil and ends of bar. If that bar was a case and I were inserting it into the coil I would make sure it was in the same place each time. A difference of a mm or two toward the top or bottom of the coil would give me a different result energy (heat) wise in the same amount of time.
Would that amount of heat make a difference, who knows? However the the goal of hand loading is consistency, why should annealing be any different?

BTW it is you guys that convinced me of the importance of consistent and repeatable anneals. I was happy with a hand drill and darkened room this time last week
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Old June 27, 2017, 03:41 PM   #99
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houndawg:

My apologies, I had forgot about your background. I do know what the nukes are, about and go through (second hand) Mojo respect for that profession. All I met were sharp cookies. Had a great time listening to my older brother and a PHD in Physics (who could only get a job in a Mac truck plant) go at it one time.

You have to be the most stubborn one I ever had a discussion though.

So, as I have a fond spot for the Navy guys and nukes in particular.

I fully agree with magnetic force and lines.

But I also have had the Templw in various positions in relation to the ferrite coil setup.

While technically there may be a difference, realistically the melt is so close to the same I cannot see the difference.

Also I did not accuse you of trolling. Stubborn, hard headed, argumentative yes, trolling no.

But we are also not talking about having to hit a .0001 tolerance here either.

If we hit 750 we have done some good.

If we barely hit 800 and there is no carry over (heat inertia) we have done perfectly.

If we get in between 50 degree range we are so close to there as to make no difference.

So, our target width is pretty wide.

I have used the 750 Tempaq I don't know how many times, I have used it on two types of cases I have (RP and Lapua) - I will use it on my PPU when I get to that bunch.

It has been rotated through 360 degrees in various tests.

I am using a pretty good index system that maintains both height and left and right clearances.

So, we are all probably blind men going through life, but a blind man with a cane can navigate amazingly well.

A sighted man with a cane is even better (good for whacking people with as needed)

I contend that is where we are at.

Yes there are quality control steps you could take. JH has to as he is doing it for sales, I can make a very educated assessment as to where I am at.

I have another temp coming (800) I can then judge it better.

Right now I am being very conservative. Until I get full level I just anneal each run through and hold my own.
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Old June 27, 2017, 07:12 PM   #100
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As a general rule for US & better made brass, the color change will be slight until you heat to the point of chrystal growth, then it becomes more pronounced with induction annealing.

The chrystals grow in all three planes, so the brass takes on a texture and you lose the nice, slick polished surface.

Flame annealing, particularly with a super hot oxygen engorged torch head, you will burn off elements of the brass base materials, iron being the first since iron oxydizes easily in small quantities (strike a match to steel wool & see what happens).

Lead will vaporize in small quantities, and as the brass heats, other base elements will depart the brass.
Surface tempratures will often start to separate zinc & tin from the copper, you get a 'Silvering' of the heated area.
This is what alarmed me so much about 'Jet' torches and their super hot flame cones when I did micrographs.

A less hot, more diffused flame like the factories use won't get you these issues,
And you REALLY have to over cook the brass with an induction unit to separate the alloy components, so the color change isn't as dramatic, but the case was through heated since it heated on a molecular level from the inside out EVENLY.

A 'Blue-ish' ring is a pretty good indicator of the HAZ when you are getting right on the edge of too much heat. If it's a stright transition color from annealed color to brass color, you are usually well below the danger zone, that noticable blueish ring tells you there was enough heat to start issues.
The HAZ is usually a fairly narrow zone, but if that zone disappears nearly entirely and you get the blue ring, watch out!

There is a link to X-ray Spectrometry in this thread somewhere, and that article didn't mention all the trace elements like tin, lead, etc that's always present in cartridge brass.
It did mention silica, iron, and every company has its own formula for the brass it uses.
Some stuff the companies want, some like lead & tin you can't avoid in commercial grade mass produced products since most of the base elements are recycled and carry in traces of it's former life.

When things like tin, lead, iron burn away, you get pits & a rough surface that was formally polished.
You know the outside was overheated when the inside doesn't take on that texturing...

With most REASONABLE induction annealing, the inside looks just like the outside.
The quickest way to tell if a gas annealer got carried away is to inspect the inside of the case, if it doesn't look like the outside (more or less) they applied too much heat too fast to the outside.

Steel pin cleaning, and I mean leaving the brass tumble until the water runs clear off the cases, will give you a big advantage in common inspection! No super-duper lights or magnifiers needed to tell if you need to open up the coil or ferrite if you see cooked outers and shiny, smooth insides...

What I wish... Is we could adjust the frequency a little to fine tune these little units, adjust the power along with the time & air gap.
That would allow a nearly perfect annealing.
The larger units you can adjust the frequency so those long runs of open coils you see annealing conveyor belt of brass to perfection, no matter the case wall thickness, simply make the adjustments for the time, power level (frequency) and standoff from the coils and it would be remarkably consistent/repeatable.

Brass 'X' being run today? Settings 'Y' & 'Z' and you are off to the races!

What people don't realize is how limited the magnetic field actually is, how severely it drops just outside the coil.
(Side tangent: people that don't understand the electro-magnetic link are scared of an EMP. Once you see how limited an electro-magnetic field actually is, you wonder why they freak out)

Just a little extra of the case neck sticking up past the Ferrite ends keeps the mouth from overheating, and we are talking 1/8", not inches,
Widening the Ferrite at the neck of the case keeps the neck from overheating, keeping the Ferrite close to the sides/shoulder gets them warm enough about everything gets done at the same time, thick or thin.
For one at a time that's about as good as it gets!
It's like!even heating in a salt or lead pot, no over cooking, no flame eating elements of the brass, ect.

Everything is out to eat our cases! Heat, petrochemicals, oxygen, work hardening...
Can't stop oxygen, but at least once annealed & sized, we can polish the case with something that seals out oxygen for a while and have a good looking case!
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