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Old February 20, 2018, 07:52 PM   #26
In The Ten Ring
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I emailed this to the White House just last week. *Local police could expand Reserve Officer Corps and put those volunteers into schools, that would get around the law on no guns in schools as police are exempt. There are plenty retired vets and other retired good guys that would step up.

Teachers that want to be armed should be armed. Background checks on teachers are already more strict than on buying guns, just one bad report from a principal (subjective only) ends teacher careers all the time.

I wouldn't send my children to public schools due to the lax discipline and social promotion. It's never a good idea to go into a Murder Magnet Zone anyway.
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Old February 20, 2018, 07:55 PM   #27
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Schools are gun free zones (in general) and that equates to a "soft target". The best way to protect schools and students is to harden the target with armed trained personnel. A dedicated group can overwhelm any defenses, so you can't prevent all attacks, but you can render the lone shooter ineffective.
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Old February 20, 2018, 08:07 PM   #28
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Right on olddav, after the Marine recruiting office in TN was shot up in 2015, hundreds of patriots, both veteran and not, stepped up to protect their local offices.

This was a big success as the populace (the ones I met anyway) was very supportive, overwhelmingly so, and after a time, the O. administration very quietly dropped the "soldiers and marines can't be trusted with guns" rule. I think it came down to local commanders though.
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Old February 20, 2018, 08:10 PM   #29
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Staying on point !!!

Quote:
This still does nothing to address the CAUSES;
That is part of the mix and should be addressed but don't hold your breath on that one. What the OP is talking about, is what can be done tomorrow, on the local level and in our schools. Victims, Firearms and bad guys are all connected and there are fixes in all in all three. BumpStock is a "small" bone but part of an overall solution. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old February 20, 2018, 09:12 PM   #30
Danoobie
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Let me put it like this:

Would you place money, jewels, collector's items, ANY asset of value,
unlocked, and unguarded, in a school, over 200 days a year?

Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?
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Old February 20, 2018, 10:22 PM   #31
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Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?
Because, unless you make other educational arrangements, the law stipulates it.
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Old February 21, 2018, 07:46 AM   #32
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Because, unless you make other educational arrangements, the law stipulates it.
And local schools are incentived with per pupil funding, through the use of enforcement agents that cost them nothing to use, to assure that you comply fully with those stipulations.
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:03 AM   #33
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Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?
I think I get your point Danoobie. As I mentioned earlier I'd be in favor of moving the police substations into the schools. There's more schools than substations in the Twin Cities so I'd be in favor of a police presence in the other schools too.

I would hope the students and faculty and parents would realize the police were there to protect folk. I have NO patience with people that think there should be NO police in schools.

Also, if folk working at the school are willing to take some training I'd be in favor of letting them carry in school too. And since the 'gun free zone' thing doesn't stop the bad guys let's let people that can legally carry, carry.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:07 PM   #34
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Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?
Because pretty much no one actually thinks children are the most valuable asset, as cute as it is to say that. If they were children under 18 would have universal healthcare, guarantee of a decent education, etc. Does anyone in this thread really think a 12 year old should be punished b/c their parents didn't provide insurance OR were too lazy to go through whatever necessary paperwork to get the children subsidized insurance from the government? Yes, there are programs that are pretty much free, but the parents have to take an afternoon to fill out the paperwork and quite a few don't bother.

YOUR children may be YOUR most valued asset, but the countries children CLEARLY are not the countries most valuable asset, and not all parents value their children.

Quote:
With 3,000 people in a school and something like 16 officers per 10,000 individuals per capita... ...shouldn't there have been about 4 or 5 dedicated officers to that school in Florida?
You have to remember those officers cover all shifts. A 24 hour week constitutes about 4 shifts, so there really should be about one at any given time. Despite this instances, schools are not high crime dangerous places. A large nursing home may have several thousand residents and visitors on campus 24 hours a day, but they are not going to station an officer there.

At the end of the day I don't think police in Schools will ever happen at the necessary scale. The cost of police in my area is too high. $30+ an hour plus really expensive benefits. Total compensation cost in the range of $50+ an hour.
Armed guards in my area receive around $20 an hour with almost no benefits and most are more or less brawlers. The armed guards who work in gang infested low income housing developments or the waffle house next to a strip club wouldn't do well in a school setting.

As far as police substations, I don't know if I have ever resided in a municipality that had more than one station. The cities all do, but many of the suburbs just have one station.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:38 PM   #35
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I assume the children of various Presidents have not been home schooled. I would also assume we have "assured" their safety. Thus I would conclude we know how to do it we are simply unwilling to do it for the rest of us.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW062
Quote:
Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?
Because pretty much no one actually thinks children are the most valuable asset, as cute as it is to say that. If they were children under 18 would have universal healthcare, guarantee of a decent education, etc. Does anyone in this thread really think a 12 year old should be punished b/c their parents didn't provide insurance OR were too lazy to go through whatever necessary paperwork to get the children subsidized insurance from the government? Yes, there are programs that are pretty much free, but the parents have to take an afternoon to fill out the paperwork and quite a few don't bother.
I would resist the notion that people aren't considered valuable unless we fully socialize the costs of parenting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohmann446
I assume the children of various Presidents have not been home schooled. I would also assume we have "assured" their safety.
I have a sense that some of us are over-shooting (no pun) the goal of reasonable school safety. Before we give every child a multiman secret service detail to get him from his medicaid appointment and to his college prep courses, why not try the easy things?

It probably doesn't require extensive training in being a human shield for a president, or even police academy training to recognize a shooter in a school as a problem. Could the janitor carry his bag of sawdust and his own concealed carry pistol? Could we stick a gun lock on a carbine and issue a few keys to willing teachers?

If a speed bump will do, why build Hadrian's wall?
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:59 PM   #37
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Sad to think of cops patrolling our school halls and locked school door's but, I suspect that is the way it will in time go. If we are going to add that then why not bullet proof glass in the doors? Probably wouldn't hurt in the class room either. How about auto locking classroom doors? Truth is that getting a school shot up is a bad thing but let's look at averages, everyone seem's to like them. With all the kids in the country and their school's this is a rare occurrence. What need s to be done I think is a mandatory death sentence for anyone even attempting it! Sure are there are those that will do it anyway, heck, if they can't do it one way they will do it another. They all must know that killing someone like that in a lot of state's get's you the death penalty, they don't seem to care.

A lot of them should probably be locked up before they commit the crime but in this country we don't have sanitarium's any more! We somehow violate crazy people's right using them! You cannot repair the insane and tings like these school shooting's and simply shooting into crowds are the area of the insane individual. They should be put away for their own good! But forbid we do that! Evil exist's in this world, always has and always will. Shoot up a school and the evil one get's lot's of press; well goody he got what he wanted, noticed!And it causes a great sensation just as this and every other one has, since we got this instant new's all over the country! The thing that perhaps the criminal want's more than anything is noticed. Well shoot up a school. Your name will be known by everyone in the country soon as the new's can find it out!

Probably with all the problem's we have in this society, the worst thing about it is the news want's a story that will sell right away, regardless of fact's, minor detail. O.J. Simpson was found guilty and convicted by the news before a jury was even picked! We the people really don't need the story as it breaks. The new's is to me the biggest detriment to a civil society for no other reason than than they are willing to sensationalize what is happening!

If I was a crazy wanting everyone to know how I was it's easy. Shoot a bunch of kids, doesn't even need to be in a school but, all lack of protection in school's makes them an easy target!
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Old February 21, 2018, 01:32 PM   #38
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Why do we need a new suggestion when authorities admit they didn't do their due diligence in this case?

The question is: How do we get those responsible to do their job?

The FBI and local law enforcement all admit they dropped the ball. Adding another protocol to the incompetents/lackadaisical list isn't going to fix anything. Accountability will go a long way, and not just for protecting kids. It seems the same FBI and local authorities dropped the ball for the Matteen Orlando shooting as well. I'm not saying to fire all FBI agents. I'm betting this is a management issue, not a field agent issue. If management makes this an issue, it'll get taken care of. I'll also bet all those FBI agents are up to date on their gender equality and white privilege sensitivity educational requirements.

After 8 years of the Obama admin telling law enforcement to back off on Muslims and Black Lives Matter and telling schools to back off on discipline in the name of racial disparity, we're falling into chaos. We don't (necessarily) need a new solution, we need to look at what worked before.
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Old February 21, 2018, 01:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
I assume the children of various Presidents have not been home schooled. I would also assume we have "assured" their safety. Thus I would conclude we know how to do it we are simply unwilling to do it for the rest of us.
They go to private schools with a full compliment of Secret Service around them.

What's your idea to pay for that for every school child? You think $15,000,000,000,000 in debt is too high? Paying for that protection would make it go sky-high.
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Old February 21, 2018, 01:51 PM   #40
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My comment was intended as illustrative in nature. It is possible to give far better protection to our children. We chose not to. As you note its a choice fueled by economics but still a choice
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Old February 21, 2018, 03:23 PM   #41
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This still does nothing to address the CAUSES; putting bandaids on severed arteries does nothing to stop the bleeding. This was a 100% preventable event. Even the FBI totally dropped the ball on this (was it deliberate or accidental I'll leave to conspiracy theorists). This is an issue with many factors, from mental health to a breakdown of traditional family scenarios to massive drug (legal and illegal), exposure to constant violence and on and on. Couple all of that with an instant world-wide media access and these get overblown instantaneously. Kids were more interested in texting friends and taking videos than getting themselves or their friends to safety......
I agree with the bold 100%, and further school shootings are not the only symptom of how society has changed (for better or worse). I have observed the over-reliance on electronics with my own daughters. At any rate, however, the causes of this is not something that I'm sure can be completely addressed. We say "mental health," but we have had threads here that highlight the arbitrary nature of deeming someone a prohibited person because they aren't mentally fit. Yes, straight up hard-core schizophrenics probably shouldn't own firearms. What about mild depression? PTSD? I also agree 100% that the cause of the FBI dropping the ball on this should be investigated. And that the breakdown of family systems also exacerbates the issue, but honestly how do we fix that? This is a peculiar time that we live in...

At any rate, I digress. I don't understand why allowing able bodied, proficient, and willing teachers to be armed gets such a knee-jerk negative reaction. You could even have said teachers complete the same yearly firearm training as law enforcement for virtually free (Police have to give the class to their officers anyway, it wouldn't be much extra time or expense to allow selected teachers to sit in). This would be so easy to enact, and virtually free.
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Old February 21, 2018, 03:23 PM   #42
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Fortifying schools will just move the attack, school buses or any wear else children congregate.

Quote:
You could even have said teachers complete the same yearly firearm training as law enforcement for virtually free (Police have to give the class to their officers anyway, it wouldn't be much extra time or expense to allow selected teachers to sit in). This would be so easy to enact, and virtually free.
Most teachers and teachers unions will not agree with teachers being armed, they are in the teaching profession not the army or police.

Last edited by manta49; February 21, 2018 at 03:37 PM.
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Old February 21, 2018, 03:32 PM   #43
Lohman446
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You could even have said teachers complete the same yearly firearm training as law enforcement for virtually free (Police have to give the class to their officers anyway, it wouldn't be much extra time or expense to allow selected teachers to sit in). This would be so easy to enact, and virtually free.
PSST.. little secret: wouldn't it be just as easy to deputize (with appropriate training) some of the teachers judged appropriate and willing to do it and then have them carry under the law enforcement officers safety act? I have heard (not first hand) around here of some first responders being deputized to avoid potential issues when they carry.
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Old February 21, 2018, 03:38 PM   #44
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An effective armed deterrent would have to be on school grounds, armed, and ready to engage.

Simply put, stick a retired vet with a Glock 19 on his hip and a Mossberg 590 with slugs in every school. Make sure he has no misconceptions of officer safety and is willing to move to the sound of the guns.

Much like the Israeli model, but not an armed teacher. I teacher needs to teach. Let an old washed up infantry guy like me do it.
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:00 PM   #45
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Simply put, stick a retired vet with a Glock 19 on his hip and a Mossberg 590 with slugs in every school. Make sure he has no misconceptions of officer safety and is willing to move to the sound of the guns.
That's not going to happen. PS What if the vet went on a shooting rampage at the school. ?
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:07 PM   #46
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That's like I asking "what if the SRO went on a shooting spree" or what if a cop on shooting spree
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:29 PM   #47
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That's like I asking "what if the SRO went on a shooting spree" or what if a cop on shooting spree
We can discus it but as i said its not going to happen, plus as i have also said if schools are fortified the shooter change location or method of attack were children congregate. These people might be mad, but i doubt they are all stupid. The sad fact is if someone is determined to carry out this type of attack, there is very little that can be done to stop them.
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:32 PM   #48
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I'm not saying this will prevent them. I'm saying that having an armed response there drastically reduces casualties.

This mess of set up a perimeter and wait for a SWAT team cost lives in Columbine and did in Florida, too.

And schools are the issue, to me anyway, because for the most part they are Gun Free Zones.

Other locations have the possibility of CCW holders being there.
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Old February 21, 2018, 06:31 PM   #49
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Arm teachers who can volunteer for it, who are capable, can pass the needed training by LE, and do not broadcast who they are. They carry fully concealed so that no kids know or even other teachers who are not also armed.

There are a lot of teachers very qualified to carry, many are ex-vets, some are even ex-federal agents or local LE. Federal agents have college degrees, I don't believe it is hard to get a teaching certificate after retirement.

I know at least a half dozen teachers in UT who go to work everyday with a concealed weapon and are doing so legally. No requirement to notify the school district (so long as it is public, does not apply to private schools). Two are ex-marines who served about six years, left the service, went to college and came out as teachers. I know they could easily do the job.

The rest of the ones I know are just very well trained and I would guess to save kids, they would jump in the way of the bullet and fire back.

Just need a UT concealed weapons permit; not hard to obtain.

Banning so-called assault rifles won't stop the problem, a guy with two handguns killed more in Virginia tech years ago.

Raising the age to 21 for so-called assault rifles won't work either. A kid in CT killed his mother, stole her AR and killed quite a few kids.

Unless you can remove every gun in the world a nut will be able to get a gun and kill people and that includes kids.

In 2014 a guy in China killed 33 with a knife. Guess we need to ban knives too.

We have to change a school from a soft target to a hard target. Something to make the killer think twice about entering. Honestly, the term "gun free school zone" should be changed to "gun free shooting zone." Sure looks like that gun free school zone idea really scares away those who want to commit mass murder.

If we do something like this, it will push the nutcase (sorry, I am not politically correct and never will be) to another soft target like the neighborhood mall. I live in ID, I have never seen an armed guard at my bank, or at the mall, and when I lived in the east, before retiring, can't say I ever saw an armed guard at any mall or bank and that includes in the Detroit and Nashville areas. However, never noticed any NO GUN signs either.

Or if all else fails, the will just stand in the middle of an intersection at rush hour and shoot away. But we need to stop these nuts from shooting unprotected kids so easily.
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Old February 21, 2018, 07:20 PM   #50
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Protecting schools? The only practical way to deal with it is a layered defense with more than one armed guard. It will be expensive to maintain. The one guard sitting inside an office drinking coffee isn't enough. Allowing teachers and administrators to be armed is okay, but they really don't have the training for the most part.

ID cards that can be scanned may need to be issued to school students to pass through some sort of screening prior to entering the building. So, some physical modifications to most schools will have to happen. The key is to not allow the shooter inside the building. Stop them in the parking lot and be pretty ruthless in the enforcement.
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